Talk:Somali architecture

Rename

It should be renamed to 'Somali architecture'. Like other articles about national architectures.Runehelmet (talk) 16:48, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

The adjectival form title does seem to be the norm [1]. That said, the appropriate title in this case would be "Somalian architecture" (c.f. [2]). Middayexpress (talk) 19:52, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

Rename 2

Why does this article say "Somalian architecture" when it's all about Somalis? AcidSnow (talk) 15:18, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

It's because the page used to be called "Architecture of Somalia", so "Somalian" fit since it is strictly a demonym and is also in adjectival form like other standard national architectures [3]. That said, the page can be renamed to "Somali architecture" since it is indeed all about Somali architecture. Middayexpress (talk) 16:36, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

That's an even worse title since Somalis don't only live in Somalia but also North Eastern Kenya, the Somali Region of Ethiopia, and Djbouti. Hence why we should also include the Walls of Harar and other things built by Somalis. AcidSnow (talk) 16:40, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

I have moved the page. Anyways, other articles such as Art and literature. AcidSnow (talk) 16:45, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Influences on Somali Medieval Architecture

In the Northern areas of Somalia so far as I can tell there was never any actual Arabian incursion or rule, in fact sources like the Chinese mention that the local pastoralists they dub the "Babali" (probably a distortion of "Barbaroi" or "Barbarian" or something along those lines) are quite efficient at holding back the "Tazi" (The 'Arabs' and their Caliphates). [-] and from what I know Islam came to the Horn of Africa via trade and contact with those first few Muslims the Negus Negast of Aksum allowed safe refuge in Abyssinia- nowhere have I found evidence of a prolonged Arabian rule or even conquest especially in areas like Northern Somalia, Eastern Ethiopia and the Afar Triangle which is where the majority of the Muslim sultanates of the Horn would be founded by ethnic groups like Somalis, Afars, Argobbas, Sidamas and so on. My point is... Why is our medieval architecture so "Arabesque" if there was no actual Arabian rule? Did they really influence our architecture and even pass on a plethora of loanwords into our language via trade and political contact? [-] Awale-Abdi (talk) 17:00, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

There have been longstanding ties between populations on both sides of the Red Sea, stretching well beyond the Abrahamic era. That said, Islam was introduced to the northern Somali coast early on, shortly after the hijra. Zeila's two-mihrab Masjid al-Qiblatayn dates to the 7th century and is the oldest mosque in the region. In the late 800s, Al-Yaqubi wrote that Muslims were living along the northern Somali seaboard. The first Muslim Sultanates were established during this period. However, we known from the Periplus of the Erythraean Sea that there were already various independent "Berber" (not Barbarian; the etymology is different) kingdoms in place by the start of the Common Era. Similarly, the Christian Abyssinian Kingdom and the earlier Agaw Zagwe Dynasty grew out of the Kingdom of Aksum and D'mt. These latter two kingdoms at their establishment adhered to a non-Abrahamic faith (the first, pre-Christian stelae there served a religious purpose). They were in turn preceded by earlier local civilizations, such as the Ona culture at Sembel, the Gash culture at Agordat, and the Taalo culture in northern Somalia. These earlier civilizations in the Horn have strong ties, including architectural links, with other Afro-Asiatic kingdoms in the Nile Valley (where the family probably originated) i.e. the Predynastic & Dynastic Egyptian, A-Group, C-Group, Kerma, etc. cultures. Middayexpress (talk) 17:36, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Do you see any reason to believe there was a change in continuity between the medieval and classical Berbers? From 700 AD onwards it's rather clear that the peoples being mentioned as Berbers by 'Arab' chroniclers are ancestral to Somalis and after doing a good deal of digging- I personally don't think there was a break in continuity as archaeological finds like those in Haylaan show that trade continued along the Northern Somali coast up until 400 to 600 AD and there are consistent mentions of different Berber tribes or the cities in the Horn of Africa from 100 BC to 400 AD~ roughly. < Even some linguists I've encountered like Giorgio Banti posit that there is no compelling evidence to believe there was ever a change in demographic and that the classical and medieval Berbers were one and the same though I believe that the classical Berbers were partially Afar or even Saho as there are Berber tribes mentioned to be serving Aksum according to Rufinus when he recounts Frumentius' story Aksum: An African civilization of Late Antiquity, Page 171 and the Aksumite King of the Monumentum Adulatinum mentions Berbers or "Barbarous tribes" he conquered around what seems to be the Danakil desert. What do you say? No evidence of demographic change- thus Northern Somalis and possibly the Afars (perhaps around Avalites' area) were the "Berbers" of the ancient world. Awale-Abdi (talk) 19:56, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

The problem with the older works on Aksum like the Munro-Hay book above is that they are silent on the Ona, Gash and Taalo cultures that preceded D'mt and Aksum. Indeed, they are usually not even aware of these cultures. Their whole thesis is instead built around the Semitocentric idea that D'mt and Aksum were the first major civilizations in the region. Of course, this notion is untenable given the description of other independent kingdoms in the region in the Periplus as well as archaeological finds belonging to the still earlier Taalo, Ona and Gash cultures. As pointed out, these civilizations are related to other Afro-Asiatic cultures in the Nile Valley, right up to the Meroitic period. Linguistic research has shown that the C-Group and Kerma populations (who erected stelae, by the way) likely spoke Berber and Cushitic languages, respectively [4]. Sherds similar to those produced by these cultures have also been found in various places in the Horn, and there are anthropological ties too (see Agordat). Middayexpress (talk) 20:29, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

How much is the Taalo culture being studied? Is there real archaeological work on it? Could you link me to some? Awale-Abdi (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 20:35, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Yes, Said M-Shidad Hussein has a series on the taalo and Punt connection [5]. Also see Neville Chittick. Middayexpress (talk) 20:51, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Are you guys saying Somalis did not build these and that people living in the region before the Somalis did? AcidSnow (talk) 18:54, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Said M-Shidad Hussein explains some of the constructions in the link above, including the pillars near the Port of Isis. Middayexpress (talk) 19:29, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Very interesting article. All I found was that Somalis have a lot of Egyptain influences and some Greek as well. AcidSnow (talk) 20:24, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

The gist of his series is that Somalia and other parts of the Horn were part of the ancient Land of Punt, and that many of the local architectural structures date from this period and civilization. Middayexpress (talk) 20:58, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Dervish Constructions

Why do the Dervish forts look so radically distinct from many of the constructions in Somalia which tend to have a white-washed & dressed stone look. Even the constructions of their contemporaries such as the Majeerteen and the Hobyo built those typical "Near East-esque" white-washed types of buildings. However the forts in Taleeh look quite radically different from: [-] [-] [-] [-] [-] [-] [-] or even these Dervish tombs: [-]

^ Was that perhaps a retention of the more indigenous architecture of the Horn? I've seen other constructions like the Dervish ones though such as the ruins of this fort made by Bokhor Osman Mahammuud (if I'm not mistaken): [-] < Are types of buildings perhaps more representative of our traditional architecture than for example the white washed buildings of the Warsangali Sultanate's old capital of Las Khorey which I suspect are more post-Islamic conversion in their influences? Awale-Abdi (talk) 22:13, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

The Taleh forts and tombs aren't ancient. They were constructed within Mohamed Abdullah Hassan's lifetime on his orders. He contracted various foreigner workers to help him build the Taleh fortress complex, including a German engineer and some Yemeni masons. It's the drystone monuments, tombs, cairns, tumuli, stelae, menhir, etc. that are ancient. Many of them also dwarf the Taleh forts in size. Middayexpress (talk) 16:44, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

I never said or suggested they were ancient... :/ Awale-Abdi (talk) 17:01, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

You said they look radically distinct from many of the dressed stone constructions. The dressed stone monuments are for the most part ancient, so I was pointing out the temporal difference. Middayexpress (talk) 19:23, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

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