Talk:Sybil Ludington/Archive 1

Untitled

Guilty of this myself back when I started the article going, but we should probably put references up here. Once that is done we can probably expand it a little more and add headers and what not to make it look nice and pretty -- Maverick 04:50, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Conflicting Information?

Unless I'm missing something here, this article very clearly contradicts itself in the paragraph where it discusses Sybil's life after marriage. The first line says she had one child, then the quoted text goes on to say she had six. Either there's a gross error here or something is horribly unclear. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.95.227.189 (talk) 15:22, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

I agree this is a conflict, and the reference to six children is incorrect. Sybil and Edmond had one child named Henry, who became a lawyer and HE had six children. Mr. Dacquino has done extensive research on Sybil and cites his sources in his book. Pika pika pink (talk) 07:14, 30 December 2013 (UTC)Caiside — Preceding unsigned comment added by Caiside (talk • contribs) 13:47, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

An Oct. 22, 1995, New York Times article by Michael Pollack casts some doubt on whether Sybil Ludington's ride ever took place. The story of her ride was never mentioned in print until 1907, when Willis F. Johnson published a biography of Colonel Ludington. Sallie Sypher, a local historian, said there is no solid evidence that Sybil actually made the ride, although Sypher believed it occurred. This should be mentioned in the Wikipedia article.

References

Reliable sources

Removed that it is the ONLY source and therefore the bases of the story: The memoir, published 130 years after the ride, is the only written record of this event and no contemporary record of the ride has been discovered. See Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources#Self-published and questionable sources. Blogs and self published sources generally considered questionable sources as with a poor reputation. It is NOT known for sure that all other sources are basing their information on the "Colonel Henry Ludington, a Memoir", printed by his grandchildren L.E. Ludington and C.H. Ludington in 1907. There could be other, now lost, sources for the information. There seem to be several dozen authors that have written on this. Reliable souces have to be used for references, NOT blogs. --Doug Coldwell ^talk 18:16, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Added another link as a reference for the fact that no source has yet been found that mentions this ride prior to the 1907 memoir. Furthermore the sources used as refs for the meeting with George Washington include semi-fictional childrens literature and even a paragraph written by an elementary school child - these are not valid and need to be corrected. Meanoldmike (talk) 19:43, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Please point out which references in question and I'll look at them to remove. There are STILL several excellent references that George Washington personally thanked Sybil Ludington for her ride. For example:

• McGraw-Hill, a publisher with a very good reputation says, Sybil was thanked personally by General George Washington.
• Smithsonian Source, another of a very good reputation says Sybil was congratulated by her friends and neighbors. Even George Washington thanked her!

I believe I have furnished plenty of good reliable references to show this fact. Your blog would not be a reliable source. Drawing a conclusion also is NOT good enough. The source MUST say exactly what you are saying, otherwise drawing conclusions is considered original research.--Doug Coldwell ^talk 19:56, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Doug - contemporary educational resources that were written to inspire kids are not historical sources. "http://dave-lucas.blogspot.com/2009/04/sybil-ludington-ride-of-lifetime.html" is a blog that cites no historical sources. The Fresch book cirtes Amstel's fictional book as its source for the Washington meeting. Washington was no where near Danbury in 1777 so when I read this line I really wondered where it originated. It appears that this is a guess because Washington and Rochambeau did visit Ludington's home (http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~nyputnam/history/chapXXVII/690-700.htm - but note that this history does not even mention Sybil or her ride). Just because this story has caught the imagination of various children's fiction writers does not mean it is true - and the oldest source we have only dates from 1907 and no earlier mention of Sybil's ride has been found. Meanoldmike (talk) 20:31, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

From what I am understanding of what you are saying is that you are drawing a conclusion. You have NOT shown me a reliable source that says this. Therefore original research is what I believe you are doing. I'll do further investigating on this, but meanwhile please show me a source that says what you are saying.

Notice in many of the sources furnished that it talks about George Washington going to "Ludington's Mill" (home of Sybil), whereas in the Memoir it does NOT say anything about that. So obviously these authors got this information of George Washington going to Ludington's Mill to thank Sybil personally from another source, which may or may not be lost.--Doug Coldwell ^talk 20:43, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Keep in mind we MUST use sources and the issue rather it is true or not, by itself, can not be the conclusion. In Wikipedia:No original research it says:

If your viewpoint is held by an extremely small minority, then — whether it's true or not, whether you can prove it or not — it doesn't belong in Wikipedia, except perhaps in some ancillary article. Wikipedia is not the place for original reseach.

You MUST show reliable sources that draw the same "conclusion" you do - you can NOT come to the "conclusion" yourself, rather true or not true.

Keep in mind that Sources Moore and Brinkley say George Washington went to "Ludington's Mill" - whereas the Memoir says nothing of this. Obviously they are NOT using the Memoir for their source.--Doug Coldwell ^talk 21:10, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

In other words, do you have an ACTUAL source that says: ...the oldest source we have only dates from 1907 and no earlier mention of Sybil's ride has been found. Who are "we"? Did "we" write on this? Did "we" get it published? Is "we" a good reliable source, i.e. Harvard University, Yale University? Wikipedia won't take the word of "we", but they WILL take referenced reliable published sources. Is there something, even a web site that says what you are saying, essentially for Sybil's ride that : ......the oldest source we have only dates from 1907... --Doug Coldwell ^talk 22:13, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

OK - can we please stop using fiction as sources for very, very unlikely events such as the purported visit of George Washington to Ludington's home in 1777? Washington was fighting a war in New Jersey so it would have been astonishing if he had made this trip.It also would have been documented or mentioned in one of the numerous letters and dispatches from April 1777. Furthermore one of the references claims Rochambeau also visited the Ludington farm - which is utter nonsense since Rochambeau was in France in 1777 and did not arrive until 1780. Claiming that the fiction writers might have had other sources might make sense had they written in c.1780 - but does anyone believe that little 7th grader Jennifer Hartwell-Jackson (yes - a paper by a child is included as a reference) has some secret original documentation? Meanoldmike (talk) 14:39, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

The Dangerous Midnight Ride Of Sybil Ludington Henry Wadworth Longfellow was my inspiration by his poem I learned as a child: The Midnight Ride of Paul Revere.

I thought that this was a nice touch on the discusiion about Sybil Luddington. the famous statue is in my hometownof Carmel,NY overlooking Lake Gleneida and I went to her grave whenI was alittle girl as well.

The Dangerous Midnight Ride Of Sybil Ludington

        By D.K.Milgrim-Heath©2007-2011````

Sit around my children do hear what was done- By the dangerous midnight ride of Sybil Ludington. I rode on a moonless rainy night in 1777- Can you remember my bravery far way then? I rode on unmarked roads and with feelings of no fear- Roads were narrow, wet and muddy that day for that time of year. Crying the British will invade Danbury being soon there they’ll march- So do protect your towns by lighting lanterns under each and every arch. We’re showing we know these British secrets of both land and sea- Our alarm will be clear from surrounding areas and others close to Danbury. Are our lanterns lit as a signal with a glowing light? Everywhere that’s necessary for our powerful American fight? I spread my words with seriousness as I ride through dangers of this night’s rain- Obey my warnings sternly via my forty miles loudly as my throat gets hoarse with pain. Some folks don’t take me seriously but others really do this I can be sure- Please everyone this ride’s for all of us if we want the British to leave our shore. The more folks that heed my words from very farm and village- Will help our country keep the British from her over all pillage. So please give us your arms we need everyone to work together- No matter if it be rain or shine being it tomorrow’s weather. The sky’s getting lighter as I’ve been riding for many hours this night- Accomplishing my task for everyone please turn on your light I want to feel when I’m in m bed when finally I can arrive at home- That this trip was not in vain for all the 40 miles I did roam. I said good night with this message of honor I have done to bring- To save us all from the British burning everything With each neighborhood I did already warn and when I began to leave- I saw stirring motions of gathering arms with those militias I did conceive. There was an eerie quiet silence so the enemy didn’t even know- That we Americans fully learned of their plans so very carefully so. Everyone was careful and so quiet on both land and shore- To really surprise the British advancing at Danbury’s door. When we showed up by our enemy quietly at break that next day- We overpowered them and they did retreat and Danbury was saved in every way. I know that my battle cry of warning really did save us in the areas all around- From Patterson and everywhere else near and also Danbury town. The years will go by and everyone will want to hear again how I rode with bravery that one lonely night- When I was just a girl of sixteen on our Danbury saving mission flight! —Preceding unsigned comment added by D.K.Milgrim-Heath (talk • contribs) 14:17, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

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Huge plagiarized portion

There were huge sections in this plagiarized from various sources - namely half of the body being copy-and-pasted from the Historicpatterson.org reference. I've taken out what I can, but I may have missed some. Would certainly appreciate someone double-checking it, if they happen to have the time! Pika pika pink (talk) 07:14, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

The various spellings of her first name are not "misspellings"

These are the standard "orthographical variants" that appear in ALL early documents before spelling was standardized in the 19th c. Things were spelled as they sounded, here and in Old England (and in other countries' languages of the pre-19th c.) because that's how they were spelled. It's helpful to make a list of the variants for those doing searches on the name, it's not useful to make such a big deal about it: It's insignificant in context. Someone needs to amend that discussion. 173.76.235.46 (talk) 14:07, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

That headstone drives me nuts LOL I've seen spelt Sybil, Sybill, Sibyl, Sibyll, and even Cybill, but never have I seen it spelt Sibbell! Agree that it's a phonetic variant, but still. Wondering who put up the headstone. Imagine going your whole life not realizing your husband or son had your name entrenched in their head like that. ScarletRibbons (talk) 05:10, 10 June 2019 (UTC)

Binkley Source Correction

The source cited by Binkley is in fact "from Cobblestone's September 1983 issue, 'Patriotic Tales of the American Revolution'" and written by Drollene (sp?) P. Brown.

http://books.google.com/books?id=tzCGQZvMULUC&q=Ludington#v=snippet&q=Ludington&f=false

At least this should be emended to read: Brown, D. P. etc etc as reprinted in Binkley etc etc — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.133.222.181 (talk) 07:05, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

New Addition of information

It would be great if I could add more updated and detailed information to this article. It is great already especially considering how little we know about this historical character, but more details are always good. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.240.165.77 (talk) 21:08, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Copyright problem removed

Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. The material was copied from: https://web.archive.org/web/20070116163216/http://www.historicpatterson.org/Exhibits/ExhSybilLudington.php. Copied or closely paraphrased material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.) For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, and according to fair use may copy sentences and phrases, provided they are included in quotation marks and referenced properly. The material may also be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Therefore such paraphrased portions must provide their source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 13:04, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Much but not all of this had already been removed by Pika pika pink. To be sure of getting it all, I reverted to the last clean version before the copyvio addition. Unfortunately that means that some subsequent good-faith edits may need to be redone. I did a couple of the most obvious, but will surely have missed some, for which I apologise. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 13:04, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

I just did an edit because the 2nd paragraph of the lead was so awkwardly phrased that it made my brain do a quick twirl around my cranium. Maybe that was from the above site & missed in prior editing. Now that I've seen this, I hope I didn't inadvertently restore anything under ©. I also took out an ampersand (I use them in casual writing, but I don't think they're encyclopedic), fixed up a dangling ref with opening & closing tags, decided Henry Ludington didn't need to be Wikilinked every time his name was mentioned, & just did a little prose tightening throughout. ScarletRibbons (talk) 05:20, 10 June 2019 (UTC)

Sibbell may have been the original correct spelling

I just wanted to note that the English language in the Americas went through a transition from when it first arrived to the modern era, and the name and the person, Sibbell may have been the original correct spelling, rather than the modern era spelling of Sybil. You would need an expert in the English and even British language on this pre-United States of America era name selection to determine the most common incidence of spelling or check her birth records or early parental records, even the family records associated with the retained family histories... Stevenmitchell (talk) 01:27, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

No evidence that this took place

So, according to the article itself, there is no evidence that this so-called event took place: why does the rest of the article treat it uncritically as fact? It has even been posted on the Main Page today as bona fide history: what do the actual reliable secondary sources say about its veracity? 72.201.104.140 (talk) 05:13, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

This ranks right up there with that nonsense about Betsy Ross sewing the first American flag. Both stories are just tall tales made up by descendants generations later. 63.111.19.5 (talk) 14:03, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Agreed. This should be linked to mythology or hoaxes. 173.174.85.204 (talk) 14:33, 26 April 2017 (UTC) Eric

Agreed. And could someone please explain what relevance the "sermons, genealogical compilations, wills, and court records" that Lamb based her book upon have to the question of whether an event happened? I mean, she would still be the aunt of a governor even if she never sat upon a horse. --Khajidha (talk) 15:45, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

the RS do not say it did not happen. What happened is a move from elite sources to common people's roles. Rjensen (talk) 16:02, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Isn't the burden of proof on the sources to show that it Did happen, and not merely to not say that it didn't? 63.111.19.5 (talk) 19:36, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Ironic that on the same day Wikipedia announces the start of Wikitribune with "fact checking", this article about Sybil's ride, based on nothing more that children's stories, is still being presented as fact.209.137.134.50 (talk) 17:05, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

In the town of Mason, Texas, there is a bronze statue of Old Yeller, from the childrens' book by Fred Gibson. The town even celebrates "Old Yeller Days." But, jeez folks, nobody claims that the events in the book are true just because there's a statue and parade.209.137.134.50 (talk) 17:05, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

We cite a standard RS that says it happened: Martha Joanna Lamb; Mrs. Burton Harrison (1880). History of the City of New York: The century of national independence, closing in 1880, vol 2 pp. A.S. Barnes. pp. 159–60, vi. a second Rs is Magazine of Western History. 1893. p. 479.. The Wiki article is primarily about the commemoration of the event and how heroes are remembered. Rjensen (talk) 02:41, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

That is not a reliable source, Rjensen – it's more than 100 years old. A reliable source would be something like the American National Biography Online. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 09:14, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

Old history books like Lamb 1880 are no good? Odd argument--at what age do they "die"?. The best test is whether modern RS cite it and they do: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?cites=12653757123907760990&as_sdt=5,27&sciodt=1,27&hl=en Rjensen (talk) 09:41, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

I agree on the rather absurd notion that a history book from 1880 is considered to be "expired" and "no good" simply because it's more than 100 yrs old! I guess we can wipe the slate clean for any history that occurred before, say, 1919, because all the books and papers left behind about it are "too old"? Nonsense! Sybil Ludington's ride is an American legend. The part that makes me thing it's an exaggerated version of what happened is her riding the same horse 40 mi, for 9 hrs straight. You can poke a horse with a stick all you want, but that's not going to make it gallop any faster when it's tired. From my experience in riding, I don't think you can push your mount that hard, certainly no more than maybe 20-25 mi/day. I honestly don't think it's possible to accomplish that long a ride in that short a time without changing horses 1-2x, of which there's never a mention in the Sybil Ludington books. She probably DID help her father, by rousing the local militia, and he then embellished it all out of proportion and made it into a Herculean feat. I mean, it does say the Lamb book supposedly used sources available to her at the time; she just didn't note where she found them, so now we can't find them. There's always a grain of truth in every legend. I don't see why people are losing their shite over the fact that it "might not" be totally true, whereas Paul Revere gets a free pass on his ride. ScarletRibbons (talk) 05:46, 10 June 2019 (UTC)

Poem by Braley

I've removed the poem by Berton Braley. My reasoning:

• Braley died in 1966, so his work becomes PD 70 years from then, on 1 January 2037
• According to the News Journal, the poem was published in 1940, so the maximum copyright protection is 95 years from that date, which expires one year earlier, at the end of 2035
• If it can be shown that copyright was not renewed in the 28th year after publication, the text may already be in the public domain, but until and unless we know that for certain, we can't host it here.

Does that make sense? Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 09:11, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

No that does not make sense. The copyright in 1940 was for 28 years then it expired & the text entered into the public domain--unless it was renewed. We have a list of renewals from Stanford. see their page and discussion at https://exhibits.stanford.edu/copyrightrenewals Berton Braley renewed three poems but NOT this one. see his renewals at https://exhibits.stanford.edu/copyrightrenewals/catalog?utf8=%E2%9C%93&exhibit_id=copyrightrenewals&search_field=search&q=%22Berton+Braley%22 Rjensen (talk) 09:49, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

Vandalism?

Note (a) appears to have been vandalized. Whaledancer (talk) 07:17, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: The Age of Revolution and Historical Memory

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 20 January 2022 and 4 May 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): BenFilangeri (article contribs). Peer reviewers: Juliancamilo17.

Added an uncited essay. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 06:55, 6 July 2022 (UTC)