Talk:Tell Abyad

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Ethnic composition numbers[edit]

@Gesture, it's interesting how you treat your source claiming that Kurds represent 40-45% of the population as a fact, when it's an opinion article by some unknown writer. On the other hand, you use the word "claimed" for numbers provided by a Turkish official (Governor of Urfa situation across the border from Tell Abyad). Nice standards!! Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 04:38, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

Kurdish Accusation[edit]

User:Multi-gesture, the last sentence you added had nothing to do with Tel-Abyad, or the Kurds percentage or the Governor ! This is considered WP:SYNTH.--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 18:33, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

But it had a lot of information about Turkish govrnment (which the governor is part of it), and the relations between ISIS and this government, and the fact that the governor's words are not apropriate references to use in these articles. Also it tells us about Turkish government-Kurdish relations which is necessary for these kind of articles. --Multi-gesture (talk) 19:16, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
This article is about a city. Those information belong in the Tel-Abyad campaign article or Kurdish-Turkish relations article (if it exist). As for the governor, he didnt make his "claims" because the Kurds are accusing turkey of helping ISIS. The connection between his words and Kurdish accusations is not established by source. The governor words or a columnist words are both not the highest quality sources. We need official sources and according to the CIA factbook maps, Tel-Abyad have Arab majority [1].--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 19:21, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
The accusations was not made only by Kurds, review the references. Also, when an independent columnist says something in a well-known website, it's acceptable but, what about a Turkish official's propaganda which is made for many obvious reasons. By the way, if you have any higher quality official references, I would be glad to see them in the article.--Multi-gesture (talk) 19:59, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
Well, I would suggest that we only mention that the majority are Arabs with a considerable Kurdish minority and stay away from being very specific in regard to percentages since we dont have any official census. But thats up to you.--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 20:03, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
I agree, do this in both Tel Abyad city and district.--Multi-gesture (talk) 20:11, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
Attar, the word majority might mean 51% or 90%. I still think the numbers are important, while indicating who said what to give full context. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 18:02, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Population[edit]

The source doesn't say that only 10% Tell Abyad population are Kurds. This is the source says:

The newly captured areas around the city is only ten percent Kurdish. Ferakp (talk) 09:28, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

Another problem, the source is not a reliable source, it is widely discussed in Rojava's talk page.Ferakp (talk) 10:09, 14 May 2016 (UTC)

The 30% to 45% are absolutely no option. Of course, these under two 2% are absolutely not reliable, but neither are the 45%. Furthermore, that's the sense of the following sentences: To say that the composition of the population is completely unclear and that the thematic is ethnically charged.

Regarding the recent accusation against you, you should be really much more careful with your edits. Just because some are blackwashing articles, whitewashing is absolutely not better. And more important, that's not what Wikipedia is supposed to be. It's supposed to be neutral!

Please revert you last edit.--Ermanarich (talk) 14:27, 14 May 2016 (UTC)

Demographics[edit]

@Ermanarich: Governor's claim is not a reliable source. The Basnews mentioned governors claim and I replaced it with a reliable source. The source itself doesn't talk about demographics, it just mentions the governor's claim.Ferakp (talk) 14:26, 14 May 2016 (UTC)

Of course, the claim of the Governor of Sanliurfa is not reliable. But neither are these 45%. As long as we have no census there (and that won't happen for a long time, since a civil war is waging over there), we won't know how the Demographics look like. But apart from that, it's very good if you bring in new sources (I'm referring to the 30% source).

Just don't put it as the absolute minimum of Kurdish population.--Ermanarich (talk) 14:33, 14 May 2016 (UTC)

@Ermanarich: What you think about this source, [1]? It is recognized organization and well known, but it says that Kurds consist 55% of the city/town population, 30% of the whole Tal Abyad area (+villages) and 15% of the Hasakah area. It will be against the statement of the lead section, where is said that the majority of inhabitants are Arabs. Ferakp (talk) 14:41, 14 May 2016 (UTC)
You mean 15% of Raqqa Governorate.
Well, 55% sound quite strange to me, since it's mentioned very often that there is an Arab majority in Tall Abyad. I'd say that you can use this source to replace the 45%, but the under 2% have to remain, or at least the 10% of kurdwatch.org. The source sounds on the one hand quite neutral, but the other question is just how they found out that there are 55% Kurds, since there are no new censuses (or how the plural of census is called...).--Ermanarich (talk) 15:24, 14 May 2016 (UTC)
I think, the Kurdwatch doesn't mention that it is 10%. It is talking about Tal Abyad neighbors (newly captured areas), not the city. It neither explicitly nor implicitly mention that 10% of the city are consist of the Kurds.
55% is not actually quite strange since the published is Arab organization and it is from 2013 before hundreds of thousands of refugees came to the city.
Another thing is that 2% is absolutely unreliable and it should be mentioned differently as source doesn't confirm it, just mention what he said in his interview. Ferakp (talk) 15:29, 14 May 2016 (UTC)
WP:FAKE, WP:RELIABLE and WP:NPOV sections removed and a new section was made for demographics. All sources were mentioned and also, Turkish governor's claim. Ferakp (talk) 15:34, 14 May 2016 (UTC)

I'm quite happy with this solution, other opinions? Only one thing, I would make the structure a bit different and make demographics not as a subsection of history, as well as the part "Governance" and maybe even "Syrian Civil War". Demographics are, even if we don't know of they exactly look at the moment not part of history. The Syrian Civil War is still ongoing, so an own section may be good. And governance should be put into this Civil War section, since it's too small to be an own section.--Ermanarich (talk) 17:06, 14 May 2016 (UTC) @Ermanarich: I don't know where the 55% Kurdish came from. Even the Al-Monitor opinion article talks about 30-45% Kurds. The Kurdish, Germany-based human rights group Kurdwatch report says about Tell abyyad "it is mainly populated by Arabs", and estimates Kurds of the areas around Tell Abyad at 10% and Turkmen at 15%, the rest being Arabs (page 5). I think this is the most credible source we have so far. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 20:19, 14 May 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for bringing up this source. Partially, Ferakp is right, when he says that the 10% etc. are for the areas outside Tall Abyad.
But actually in this text there is another much more important citation, which says: "Following the assumption of power in Tall Abyad the PYD formed a council of elders consisting of ten Arabs, three Kurds, one Armenian, and one Turkmen, whose task it is to administer the region. The ethnic composition of the council suggests a fair representation of the Arabic majority population." This would mean, that two third of the population in Tell Abyad are Arabs, 20% Kurds and 6,7% Armenians and same number Turkmen. These numbers fit quite well with how it looks on this map (with some Kurds inside but nearly no outside the town and with the Turkmen the other way around): http://gulf2000.columbia.edu/images/maps/Syria_Ethnic_Detailed_lg.png
55% is definitely far too high, but on the other hand it's also a quite reliable page: http://www.vdc-sy.info/pdf/reports/talabyad-English.pdf
However, I'm quite sure that Kurdwatch should know much better how the ethnics in Tell Abyad are composed.
I'd actually like to take the numbers of Kurdwatch.org for the article. Their opinion is definitely not anti-kurdish, they know the topic very well and city many sources in their report. We may should add in another phrase something like that there are other contradictory sources who say that there are either under 2% or up to 55% Kurds in the town.
Anyway, I think we are on a good way to a conciliation, at least in the Tell Abyad article.--Ermanarich (talk) 21:04, 14 May 2016 (UTC)
I can tell you that Kurdwatch is a unreliable source. I tried to mark it as unreliable last year in Wikipedia, but it was lucky because one US pentagon report had mentioned them in one of their reports. We couldn't mark it as a unreliable, but as admins said, we should mention that source which we have used is not accurate and their reports are mainly claims. Kurdwatch is banned from Rojava and they don't have any experts, researchers and employees there. Also, they are saying in their webpage that their news are not accurate and they are not responsible for them. Kurdwatch is actually not even under control of Kurds. The vast majority of their employees are anti-Rojava and anti-HDP and they are known among the Kurds. The organization is just registered to Germany and it has never been accepted in any Kurdish organization in Turkey, Iraq, Iran or Syria. It has been isolated from all Kurdish human rights organizations. About 10-3-1-1, you can't use it, it would be WP:ORIGINAL. Before al-Nusra and ahrar al-Sham ethnic cleansed the Kurds and dozens of thousands refugees came, the Kurds were clearly majority. Turkish governor's 2% and 30% of other sources are not true anymore. As Amnesty mentioned, the Kurds forced thousands of Arabs to leave the area and also dozens of thousands were sent to Turkey. (The vast majority of them were refugees who had been there since the civil war started). In this case, I would just leave it as it is now. It's too complex and we don't have enough sources. Ferakp (talk) 00:49, 15 May 2016 (UTC)
@Ermanarich: You are being reasonable here, unlike Ferakp, who insists on his cherry picking classification of sources. Obviously, KurdWatch cannot be anti-Kurdish as Ferakp claims. I agree that 55% Kurds in Tel Abyad is absurd by all measures. The KurdWatch numbers I have cited above are the most reasonable so far, so I'll add that to the article. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 04:37, 15 May 2016 (UTC)
@Ferakp: I can see that they are somehow not pro-PYD, but that's not necessary to cite them as a source for the population of Tell Abyad or this elder council. With the council I formulated it in a way that is it not WP:ORIGINAL. Many sources speak not about direct numbers but about an Arab majority in Tell Abyad. To show just all of them is the best thing and maybe also the only thing we can do here.
But I'd really recommend you to read the report. It's definitely not anti-kurdish, because then it would accuse them of ethnic cleansings. It criticises PYD's handling with opposition figures, but that's another thing and may even have some truth.--Ermanarich (talk) 17:23, 15 May 2016 (UTC)
@Ermanarich: I know the Kurdwatch very well. I already heard about them last year. It's not registered as human rights organization. It's just an internet portal, as they also say: [2]. You can't trust an internet portal. I am not saying that their reports are fake or totally false, I am just saying that you can't use their reports/pages as reliable sources. Internet portal is not a good source for such claims.Ferakp (talk) 17:28, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

Well, but I'm quite sure that they didn't invent this council. Also, their report on the displacements near Tall Abyad is definitely the best and least POV-source we can get in any way. We know that human rights abuses took place in Syrian Kurdistan and this source shows that it hasn't anything to do with ethnic cleansing but rather with other aspects of the PYD-policy.--Ermanarich (talk) 17:32, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

Reversed change[edit]

@عمرو بن كلثوم: You edit[3] was reversed.

Reasons why I reverted your edits:
1. You removed sourceddetails (55%) without any reason.
2. The Kurdwatch is not Kurdish and it is not human rights group. It is just an internet portal as they say here, [4].
3. It doesn't confirm anything, it claims and it has no statistical or original studies. It is just an internet portal.
4. The Kurds consist 10% of the population of newly captured areas in Tel Abyad, not the whole Tel Abyad.
Ferakp (talk) 05:00, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

@Ermanarich: Thanks for your intervention here. BTW, the proportions for Turkmen and Kurds are switched in your edit, should be 15% Turkmen and 10% Kurds, according to KurdWatch, not the other way around. I still don't agree with the 55% number, and as you had said before this is obviously WRONG and extremely exaggerated, and it is not mentioned in the al-monitor story (30-45%). Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 23:05, 15 May 2016 (UTC)
@عمرو بن كلثوم: Thanks for saying. In fact I changed the numbers accidentally. The 55% are mentioned in this source: http://www.vdc-sy.info/pdf/reports/talabyad-English.pdf at page three. It's definitely as wrong as the turkish statement. So either we take out both or let them both there.--Ermanarich (talk) 00:22, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

Confirming vs claiming[edit]

Confirm is a strong word and should not be used without any court decision, especially if a source is not a reliable and strong. In case of Kurdwatch, it's nothing else than a claim, since it has itself said that they aren't responsible for their reports/news and their accuracy.Ferakp (talk) 05:22, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

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Stop removing content massively![edit]

Hello Attar-Aram and 2A1ZA,

I don't have much time now, but I'm very angry about your edits here. The things you removed without anything even close to a discussion was reached after intense discussion. It was definitely no propaganda as you, 2A1ZA, said, in contrary. It only shows the different claims and points out that we currently haven't official numbers. It was clearly mentioned that they aren't official. So: revert all of your disruptive edits you made here today! I'm quite angry about this!--Ermanarich (talk) 12:16, 2 July 2016 (UTC)

Angry!! wow, you should really not be this connected to Wikipedia dear. Plus, Wikipedia dont care about your feelings whether you are angry or satisfied as your feelings arent a criteria for Wikipedia's articles.
Can you take a look at the edits before mentioning me ? I removed nothing, but if ferakp wants to remove all the estimations calling them propaganda then Al-monitor estimations should go as well. On a different note, we dont need a section for the estimations. No one knows sh.. about the actual numbers.--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 12:44, 2 July 2016 (UTC)
Please see the section below. I do not think that half the article should be presentation of into-the-blue claims of what would or would not have been the ethnic share of population of the town a decade ago. If someone wants to improve the article, there would be many other aspects of Tell Abyad to tell, which do not appear in the article at all. -- 2A1ZA (talk) 13:07, 2 July 2016 (UTC)
Well, your 30-45% "neutral" number is also an into the blue claim. No percentages or all of them.--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 13:09, 2 July 2016 (UTC)
My preference would clearly be to state no percentages and no claims about majority at all, just mention the ethnicities present, Arab and Kurd larger and Turkmen and Armenian smaller, and that's it. However, my point is that all this issue of ethnic composition (including all the equally baseless claims concerning majorities and percentages) should be in one or two brief sentences in the "Demographics" section, not extensively and dramaturgically narrated throughout the article. -- 2A1ZA (talk) 16:57, 2 July 2016 (UTC)
The city have an Arab majority, this is known and even you know it. Its important to state this in the face of the claims of Kurdish nationalists thinking they will establish the great Kurdistan empire. Even the CIA maps shows the area as having a Kurdish minority. No percentages or all of them.. this is the neutrality. Otherwise, keep it as it is.--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 18:35, 2 July 2016 (UTC)
I understand what you say, but the fact that some editors highly interested in the topic of competing quantifications of ethnic composition have reached a equilibrium, which in turn makes half the article discuss this topic, invites some idea of improvement of the article. Can't one simply but this equilibrium into one or two brief sentences in the "Demographics" section? -- 2A1ZA (talk) 17:05, 2 July 2016 (UTC)
@Attar-Aram syria: Well, if you would have taken a look at this talk page and at the articles' history, you would maybe stop making fun of me. It was a bunch of work to get the Users Ferakp and Amr ibn Kulthoum to a acceptable compromise. And because I saw you complaining some times that 2A1ZA would be a sockpuppet of Ferakp: He's definitely not, since his English is much better. Apart from that, Ferakp isn't even a blocked User.
@both: Well then, let's take out any numbers from this article. It wouldn't ever stop to lead to tensions between Arab and Kurdish nationalists anyway. I tried hard to make this article better and I still think that to show the different numbers and adding the comment, that the true ethnic cmoposition remains unclear is the best. But since I'm not even close to the mood for being a adjustor between two completely opposed views again, I'll leave it up to you. Cheers, Ermanarich (talk) 18:23, 2 July 2016 (UTC)
One more thing. This counts for the allegiations of Kurdwatch as well. This section now leaves some facts away(and this even if this report clearly isn't anti-Kurdish). But I guess I'm talking against a wall right here.--Ermanarich (talk) 18:32, 2 July 2016 (UTC)

I guess I was rude. No hard feelings I hope. As for ferakp, I already have evidence.... I just genuinely dont want him blocked. He is not bad and better than multi-Gesture who I fought and blocked. Im just collecting evidence now. I wont open an investigation now cause we need a Kurdish voice on those articles and that guy isnt a rock head like many Kurdish nationalists Ive met (though he think anyone who doesnt agree with him to be a supremacist).--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 19:01, 2 July 2016 (UTC)

Formulation concerning ethnic demographic composition[edit]

Kurdish-inhabited area by CIA (1992)

There was and is high emotion concerning the formulation of the ethnic composition. Current state is:

Before the Syrian Civil War, Tell Abyad had a population of 14,825. Sources often claim that the majority or plurality of the inhabitants were ethnic Arab,[2] suggest around 30 to 45 percent ethnic Kurdish,[3][4] and a smaller share of ethnic Turkmen[5] and ethnic Armenian population.[6][7][8]

I consider this the most neutral that is possible and achieved yet. If you want to change, please explain here. -- 2A1ZA (talk) 13:01, 2 July 2016 (UTC)

You consider??? no one care. I consider the 10% kurdish percentage the most neutral... also no one care.
If you will mention percentages then mention them all or none--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 13:04, 2 July 2016 (UTC)
Please try to use a mature language of cooperation towards a good article. I do not care at all which of these equally baseless claims are mentioned in the aricle. Due to the fact that there was and is no serious census about the issue, due to the fact that the assymetrical definition of "Kurd" and "Arab" makes a considerable part of the population fall under both definitions anyway, due to the fact that the population was and is highly fluent, all of them have few or probably rather zero value, which the article at least explicitly states in the last paragraph. My point is that all these equally baseless claims should be in one or two brief sentences in the "Demographics" section, not extensively and dramaturgically narrated throughout the article. -- 2A1ZA (talk) 16:51, 2 July 2016 (UTC)

The CIA doesnt have baseless information. It isnt baseless that this isnt a Kurdish majority area.--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 18:31, 2 July 2016 (UTC)

Well, and now? That map isn't only old, it's also very inaccurate. This one of Syria is much better and it is actually from a reliable project of the american Columbia University: http://gulf2000.columbia.edu/images/maps/Syria_Ethnic_Detailed_lg.png --Ermanarich (talk) 18:35, 2 July 2016 (UTC)
And according to the map you removed now in favor for anotherone, the Kurd Mountains around Afrin wouldn't even have Kurds in it. Reliable or accurate? Definitely not.--Ermanarich (talk) 18:38, 2 July 2016 (UTC)

I removed cause it was from 1992 while this from 2002. Your map is by Izady, the guy claiming the Kurds are the grandsons of Halaf cultures 6000 BC....... That should be enough to talk about this man. By the way, his map shows that Kurds live in tel abyad not that they are majority. He also put a lot of Armenians in Deir ezzor but we know they are not a majority.. It also miss the Armenians in Kassab.--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 18:42, 2 July 2016 (UTC)

True... By the way, I didn't want to prove that Tall Abyad has a Kurdish majority (Because it definitely haven't). I only wanted to say that the map of the CIA doesn't proof anything as well. The beginning of the Kurd mountains is also shown there, but it shows no Kurds there, as well as is Shehba area north of Aleppo, where several villages with a Kurdish majority can be found, like Dudiyan or Aktharin.--Ermanarich (talk) 18:53, 2 July 2016 (UTC)

Order of the page, including information that is unrelated to who-is-ethnic-majority wars[edit]

After one user reverted all updates to the page and any inclusion of content unrelated to ethnic-majority wars, I will now make a second attempt. However important these who-is-ethnic-majority wars may appear to some, it cannot be that this article does prohibit any other informatuion on Tell Abyad. I will for now in Edit: CHRONOLOGICAL ORDER leave all content concerning the who-is-ethnic-majority wars untouched, just make the order of the history section chronological rather than dramaturgical as it is now, add new information unrelated to who-is-ethnic-majority wars, and delete one sentence about government which is onviously outdated. If you have an issue with this, please talk about it here rather than reverting without reason. -- 2A1ZA (talk) 16:29, 2 July 2016 (UTC)

Removing the "Kurdwatch" Junk[edit]

"Kurdwatch" is not a serious source. Currently, this article gives extreme weight to a quote from that "Kurdwatch" website, without there being any reason to do so, as all the content of that quote already is in the article, and if one would want to elaborate, there would be many much more serious sources around for each and every point mentioned. I strongly suggest to either completely remove the "Kurdwatch" part or at least cook it down to one sentence. Suggestion for cooking down:

Kurdwatch, a Germany based internet portal, suggested displacements, no large-scale ethnically motivated expulsions, repressive measures against persons with ties to ISIL, ethnic discrimination based on the fact that only Kurds from Tall Abyad could act as a guarantor for refugees so that they can return to Tall Abyad from Turkey.[9][10]

This would also serve the aim to correct the overall balance of the article, which gives absurd undue weight to this one issue. And it would serve the aim of embarrassing Wikipedia less by less presenting this "internet portal" as an alleged quotable source. -- 2A1ZA (talk) 17:25, 2 July 2016 (UTC)

Kurdwatch is a serious source. It already went to the reliable sources portal.--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 18:29, 2 July 2016 (UTC)

References[edit]

  1. ^ http://www.vdc-sy.info/pdf/reports/talabyad-English.pdf
  2. ^ "Arab Tribes Split Between Kurds And Jihadists". Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. 2015. Retrieved 26 June 2015. 
  3. ^ Cite error: The named reference al-monitor was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  4. ^ "Kurds eye new corridor to Mediterranean". Al-Monitor. 
  5. ^ "US Expresses Concerns About PYD Human Rights". BasNews. Archived from the original on August 6, 2015. Retrieved 26 June 2015. 
  6. ^ "PanARMENIAN.Net - Mobile". panarmenian.net. Retrieved 14 May 2016. 
  7. ^ "Surviving Aleppo: An Interview with Nerses Sarkissian". Armenian Weekly. 9 December 2015. Retrieved 14 May 2016. 
  8. ^ "BasNews". 6 August 2015. Archived from the original on August 6, 2015. Retrieved 11 May 2016. 
  9. ^ "New Report: Ethnic Cleansing in Tall Abyad? Characteristics of YPG and PYD rule in the areas captured from the IS". KurdWatch. 
  10. ^ "Ethnic cleansing in Tall Abyad?" (PDF). Kurdwatch. January 2016. Retrieved 14 May 2016.