|WikiProject Heraldry and vexillology||(Rated B-class)|
|WikiProject Color||(Rated B-class, Low-importance)|
I did a survey of several major treatises, and the engraving patterns for the less-common tinctures are inconsistently given. Some books use the pattern given in the WP article, while others agree with what you found in Brooke-Little. There does not seem to be consistency among heraldic authors on this matter. --EncycloPetey (talk) 04:16, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
None of those archsrch.gov.za links ever worked for me. A past editor used them a lot and they proved to be temporary. Now when I click this one, I get "All search logins are in use, try again later." —Tamfang (talk) 21:35, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
- A number of organizations and IPs block any access to South African websites. Even if yours doesn't, you may have a hard time connecting right now with the World Cup going on there. --EncycloPetey (talk) 19:37, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
Article lacks any examples or illustrations
This article seems entirely devoted to a long discussion on hatching, with no actual examples of heraldry. The images of four actual coats of arms using tenné from the U.S. military were deleted with no explanation. I suggest this article be renamed Tenné hatching, and another more serious article be written on tenné in heraldry. —SiefkinDR (talk) 06:38, 5 May 2013 Don't forget to sign your posts using four tildes (~~~~)!
- The images you added were not removed without explanation. If you look at the article and click the tab that says "view history" at the top of the page, that will take you to a list of edits, from most recent down to earliest, with time stamps and edit summaries for each edit. There, you'll notice when I removed the images from the article (they were not deleted - that's something else entirely), I left the following edit summary: trimming image gallery per WP:GALLERIES and WP:WEIGHT. In other words, I felt that having a gallery of four images of U.S. military coats of arms in an article that otherwise has a lead image, a gallery of hatchings, three colour swatches with hatchings, and NO OTHER IMAGES placed undue visual weight on U.S. military use of tenné, to the point of ignoring its use elsewhere, in terms of the images presented in the article. If we were to add four instances of English livery and Scottish heraldry, four instances of German arms and four instances of South African heraldry, then we would reach some sort of balance in terms of WP:WEIGHT, but we would run afoul of WP:GALLERIES and WP:NOTGALLERY, because the article would be more images than text. If you want to include an image here or there, that is fine, but we should avoid using a gallery to show what can be shown with a single example. On the other hand, you removed the regimental colours of the Signal Corps twice with no more explanation than Deleting image which is net thE coat. That's not very helpful in explaining the rationale for removing the image. There is more to heraldry than strictly coat armory, and I had thought it helpful to have one image that was not a coat of arms (though it would have been helpful to have a few coats as well, just not all focused on U.S. military). I have been working with you and trying to show you by example how things are done around here, like how to format references, and I've done several copy edits behind you, mostly due to minor typos and occasionally due to your misreading of the source. If you go back to the 1st Cavalry page at TIOH and read carefully, you'll see that it's tenné, not or, that they refer to as "dragoon yellow". The coat is described: Tenné (Dragoon Yellow), a dragon passant Or. Further down, the text states: "The color of the Dragoons was Dragoon yellow (orange-yellow), shown by the color of the shield and the dragon is in allusion to the name Dragoon." Clearly, it is tenné, not or, that is called "dragoon yellow". If I (or anyone else) change or remove something you've added it's nothing personal, so relax, take a second look at it, and try to see the other editor's intent. Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 14:27, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
My apologies for being testy in my comment; I had searched for a long time to find four images of coats of arms using tenne, documented as having that color, only to have them deleted. I also didn't understand why the flag of the Signal Corps was used, when I had placed an image of the coat of arms in the article, with the tenne in the coat of arms clearly visible. It's very hard to see it on the flag. I also apologize for the sloppiness of my editing; I was away from home and using an I-pad, which I'm not used to.
I think the article is much better now with the addition of some images. I note that the main article on heraldry is very richly illustrated, Is it possible to add some historical examples of tenne from French, German or British heraldry? I can't find any mention or examples of the color in the French Wikipedia.
- Okay, I'm glad you're not getting too frustrated. I also apologize if any of my edits have seemed argumentative in nature. I've been looking for examples of tenné in British or German heraldry, but so far I've come up empty handed. I found an example of the standard of the Earl of Derby on a blog, but it's not a free image for use here. The Signal Corps flag has a "tenné" (orange) field, but I'll agree the arms of the 1st Signal Battalion is probably a better example to use here. Cheers. Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 18:51, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
I found that the explanation of Tenné and dragoon yellow on the site of the U.S. Army Institute of Heraldry was a little confusing, so I exchanged e-mails Bonnie Henning, a Program Analyst with the Institute of Heraldry, which designed the coat of arms. Ryan, She wrote back:
"The color Tenné is a heraldic color and it is orange. The Dragoons used a orangish yellow color as noted in the symbolism. I do not know of any other units that have dragoon yellow in their heraldry."
I wrote back to her and asked:
"Am I correct then, that Dragoon yellow is a different color from Tenné; that Tenné is orange while Dragoon yellow is a slightly orange shade of yellow?"
She replied, "Yes."
The institute can be contacted through their Webpage: http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/
I would like to edit the text of the article to reflect that distinction. The definition on the Institute site is certainly misleading and confusing, and I hope they correct it. SiefkinDR (talk) 14:03, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
- That's interesting. The problem with editing on the basis of these emails is that an exchange of emails is not a reliable, published source, but the TIOH web site is, so where the two disagree, we go with the published source (right or wrong). If their web site needs to be updated, that's up to them to take care of that and we as a tertiary source can't anticipate that change in our sources. Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 16:19, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
Respectfully, I think that the idea that tenne and dragoon yellow are the same color is questionable. In the site of the Institute of Heraldry, the description of the unit badge of the First Regiment says: "The color of the Dragoons was Dragoon yellow (orange-yellow) and a gold eight-pointed star on the encircling belt was the insignia of the Dragoons until 1851.”
On the coat of arms of the First Regiment, the background is orange (tenne) while the dragon is dragoon yellow (or). This same orange yellow color appears in both the badge of the First and Second Dragoons, along with the darker orange (tenne). It is the same color as the eight-pointed star which was the old emblem of the Dragoons, which is also shown on the coat of arms of the Second Regiment. This is the color dragoon yellow. The cords in the crest show two colors; orange (tenne) and orange-yellow (gold). The orange yellow is dragoon yellow. I don't see how tenne can be both dark orange and orange-yellow on the same shield. This is contradicted by the descriptions of the symbolism on the Institute of Heraldry site cited in the article, and by the e-mail from the official of the Institute of Heraldry cited above. I would suggest you take another look, or add "the idea that tenne and dragoon yellow are the same color is disputed."
Also, why not put the images of one or the other of the regimental shields, so people can see the colors for themselves? It's hard to imagine a coat of arms from a description. SiefkinDR (talk) 07:54, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
- TIOH's 2nd Cavalry Regiment page never mentions the term "dragoon yellow" so we can make no inferences to the term's meaning based on anything found there. Looking at the 1st Cavalry Regiment page, we see the DUI of a black hawk rising, perched on a torse of orange and gold, all placed upon a yellowish star. This is described in the following way: "On a heraldic wreath Or and Tenné (Dragoon Yellow) a hawk rising... upon an eight-pointed Dragoon Yellow star surrounded by..." The torse or wreath is clearly gold and orange intertwined, and the description says "Or [the traditional heraldic word for "gold"] and Tenné (Dragoon Yellow)", so we see that they are parenthetically referring to Tenné as "Dragoon Yellow". Then they formally tincture the star as "Dragoon Yellow", which is where things can get a bit confusing, because the star is not quite the same yellow as the "Or" in the wreath, but closer to that than to the "Tenné" in the wreath (as drawn on that page). But then, this photograph of an actual 1st Cav DUI is probably more accurately coloured. Then we come to the unit's coat of arms: "Tenné (Dragoon Yellow), a dragon passant Or." Again, we see Tenné parenthetically described as "Dragoon Yellow", and it is very clear that this refers to the colour of the field, not the dragon which is tinctured Or. Then the crest: "On a wreath of the colors, Or and Tenné (Dragoon Yellow), a hawk rising..." Here again, Or is one colour, Tenné (Dragoon Yellow) the other. Under the heading "Symbolism" it is explained: "The color of the Dragoons was Dragoon yellow (orange-yellow), shown by the color of the shield..." Most of that was fairly unambiguous, though it is a bit complicated by the fact that the only three tinctures involved are tenné, Or and sable, and the total disregard for the rule of tincture that is quite evident in the unit's DUI. All of that being said, I don't think we could say the colour is "disputed", even if we were to take the 1st Cav DUI drawing on the TIOH page as evidence that its application is somewhat inconsistent (but given the photo of an actual DUI, even that is doubtful). Besides, we would need to be able to cite at least two conflicting sources to support an assertion that something is disputed. I don't think delving into a lengthy discussion of the term "dragoon yellow" in the article would be useful to our readers either. I think the current article text is appropriately succinct on the issue, and I see extremely little evidence from published sources that it is inaccurate. Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 19:00, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
I'm sorry to come back to dragoon yellow again, but you should look at the heraldry of the 2nd cavalry Regiment. It was also a dragoon regiment. Their coat of arms is a tenne or orange shield with two "dragoon stars,". These eight pointed orange-yellow or gold stars are described as the old emblems of the dragoons. The same star is also used in the insignia of the unit. They are the same color as the dragon on the 1st Cavalry emblem. I think a very good case can be made that this is the color meant by dragoon yellow, since it is used by both of the former dragoon units. This is pretty clear in the description of the 2nd Cavalry Regiment emblems on the site of the Institute of Heraldry, and agrees with the comments of the Program Analyst of the Institute of Heraldry. I think you should note in the article that it is not universally accepted that dragoon yellow is tenne or orange.SiefkinDR (talk) 15:36, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
- Sorry, but I still have not seen any reliable published source stating that any such disagreement exists. I don't think a very good case could be made that "dragoon yellow" ever meant anything other than tenné or you would have made it by now. Besides that, we are writing an encyclopedia (a tertiary source), not a secondary source book on heraldry, so for us to "make a case" would be missing the point. Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 15:56, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
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