Talk:Théâtre Marigny

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Need more history references[edit]

  • this article needs more references and also more clarification of recent history (last 50 years). It also would be nice to have some information about the current building, as there is a mention of one version being demolished, but no mention of the construction of the current theatre. --Mdukas (talk) 18:31, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Théâtre vs Theatre[edit]

I recently changed the name of this article from "Théâtre Marigny" to "Theatre Marigny" citing Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Foreign terms. It was pointed out (below) that this may be incorrect. Anybody an expert on the subject of diacritics in Wikipedia? Should it be changed back?Foobarnix (talk) 23:22, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

Théâtre vs Theatre discussion[edit]

The information at WP:Manual of style#Use of foreign terms does not appear by itself to provide sufficient justification for removing the French diacritics from Théâtre: "The use of diacritics (accent marks) on foreign words is neither encouraged nor discouraged; their usage depends on whether they appear in verifiable reliable sources in English...." And apparently this can be tricky. I did a search on Google Books for "Theatre de la Porte Saint-Martin" (with the quote marks). The results seemed to suggest that the use of diacritics was uncommon, that is, most hits did not have them. But when I actually checked one of the hits which did not appear to use them, Hervé Lacombe's The Keys to French Opera, p. 392, the book itself uses the diacritics, even though Google did not display them. I also checked the book by Fauser and Everist Music, Theater, and Cultural Transfer, and it consistently uses "Théâtre" for Parisian theatre names (although it does not specifically mention the Marigny). --Robert.Allen (talk) 09:17, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

  • Robert--What is your recommendation about "Theatre" vs "Théâtre"? I really wrestled with this. There seems to be no consistency in use of diacritical marks. Some English books about France use them, some don't. Also, the marks are a pain to type and easy to forget. I was not aware that Google would conceal diacriticals. I will follow your judgement. Thanks for your comments.Foobarnix (talk) 09:39, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
I checked another book on my shelf: The McGraw-Hill Encyclopedia of World Drama, 1984, vol. 1, p. 528, where it gives the name of the theatre as "Théâtre Marigny" with the diacritics. (I almost forgot to mention that again Google Books search results did not display the diacritics used in the original.) Perhaps with increasing computerization of printing the use of diacritics on French theatre names is becoming more common. I would suggest holding off making more moves to names without them and try to engage other editors on the talk page first, if you think the change should be made. --Robert.Allen (talk) 09:46, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

You mention the difficulty of typing them. I use an Apple computer, and it is quite easy using the "option" key. Perhaps other editors who use a computer like yours could help out there. --Robert.Allen (talk) 09:53, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

  • Robert--I think you have a good point. I was checking around within Wikipedia and found that it is usual to use diacricals in words like Köln, Bjørn, and Français. I will ask people on the talk page if we should change back to "Théâtre". As far as typing them, I can always cut and paste. (Would it be naïve to expect a soupçon of co?öperation?)Foobarnix (talk) 10:34, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
    • Someone just pointed out to me the "Special characters" menu in edit. Duh.Foobarnix (talk) 22:22, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
Your talk page automatically goes on my watchlist when I leave you a message, since I have my prefs set to automatically add any page that I edit, so it's not absolutely necessary to leave a note on mine. But that get my attention, since the banner about a new message appears and really grabs you.
We could copy some of our discussion from your talk page to the article discussion page, since I put some refs in that are examples of using "Théâtre". That's probably a good idea to put them there. Also the phenomenon of Google Books search not always accurately reproducing diacriticals in the search results. (It's rather odd, since sometimes it does, but obviously not always.) --Robert.Allen (talk) 23:07, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

Final thoughts on Théâtre vs Theatre[edit]

Robert -- When considering eliminating the diacritics I was influenced by the fact that on the welcoming pages of the official web sites of the following theatres, no diacritics appear on the word "Theatre": Bouffes du Nord, Théâtre des Champs-Élysées, and Théâtre des Variétés. (This is not true of some other theatres, however.) In addition, Théatre des Nouveautés in English Wikipedia uses one diacritic and fails to use the other—which illustrates my point that they are prone to mistakes and easy to forget.

What do I think? I believe that either (a) retaining the diacritics shows more respect for the culture and should be consistently retained or (b) using diacritics lends a pedandic affectation to Wikipedia that should be avoided. I can't decide.Foobarnix (talk) 06:49, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Neither of the two reasons you give are covered by Wikipedia policy that I am aware of. It is my understanding that we need to reflect usage in standard English-language sources. The Wikipedia itself is not a source. English-language web sites can be, but I regard reference books as better sources. That is why I like to search Google books. Here is a sample:
  • Théâtre Marigny
    • The Oxford Companion to the Theatre, 1983, p. 303
    • The McGraw-Hill Encyclopedia of World Drama, 1984, vol. 1, p. 528
    • Hartnoll's The Concise Companion to Theatre, 1988, pp. 38, 99
    • Hobson's French Theatre Today, 1980, p. 230 (in the index as Marigny, Théâtre)
    • Senelick's The Chekhov Theatre: A Century of the Plays in Performance, 2000, pp. xiii, 440
    • Western European Stages, vol. 16, 2004, pp. 3, 61
  • Marigny Theatre
    • The Cambridge Guide to the Theatre, 1988, p. 81
    • Sharland's A Theatrical Feast, 2005, pp. 20 and 78
    • Hill and Hatch's A History of African American Theatre, 2003, pp. 47, 493, 494, 590
    • Hobson's French Theatre Today, 1980, p. 163

So far when Theatre comes first it has the diacritics, when it is second, it does not, and either name would be acceptable. Do we have any sources which use Theatre Marigny? --Robert.Allen (talk) 11:04, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

I checked the number of hits in Google Books using exact phrases in advanced search and limiting the results to books in English:

  • "theatre marigny" gave "About 2,960 results"
  • "marigny theatre" gave "About 580 results"

Based on the references examined in the sample of the search results and the numerical hit results here, it seems possible that Théâtre Marigny is used about 5 times more often than Marigny Theatre. The results could be used to justify renaming the article Théâtre Marigny, or possibly Marigny Theatre, but so far I have not found support for the title Theatre Marigny. --Robert.Allen (talk) 21:49, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Resolution of Théâtre vs Theatre[edit]

Robert, you have proved your case! I am going to change it back to "Théâtre" everywhere. Great piece of research! Thanks for caring about the quality and consistency of Wikipedia--Foobarnix (talk) 23:58, 14 December 2010 (UTC)