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Archive 1

Proposed move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was Anthony Appleyard's decision at the bottom of this discussion.

Article title

If the band is named after the novel, shouldn't the novel be at The Fall and the band at The Fall (band)? RickK 20:57, Nov 6, 2004 (UTC)

The Gaurdina had an article on the Fall/Mark E Smith at their website on Jan 15 which linked to The fall article on Wiki, hence I've reciprocated the link! [1]

quercus robur 15:02, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The Fall (band) are much more popular than the book - I guess a large majority of people will be searching for the band The Fall rather than the book. So I propose we move The Fall to The Fall (Camus novel) (or similar) and The Fall (band) to The Fall – whichever came first is not relevant. SaltyWater 22:17, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
This should be a disambiquation page because there is also a book by Garth Nix entiled the fall. Jamhaw 14:56, 6 June 2006 (UTC)jamhaw
I suggest creating The Fall (disambiguation), and linking to that page from here. The Fall band are much more popular than either book. SaltyWater 15:18, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
I was about to do that, when I noticed Fall (disambiguation), which already links to this article, Camus and the Fall of Man. --ajn (talk) 15:36, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

This article should be moved.
While any of the points above are more than debatable, I think it should be clear that this page, "The Fall" should most certainly point to either The Fall of Man or The Fall. My reason for thinking that "The Fall" should not point to this page in particular is that I find it unlikely this band is widely known outside of the UK; and, more than that, without any context the phrase "The Fall" is generally understood to be referring to "The Fall of Man". Wikipedia's naming convention is summed up as follows:

Generally, article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature.

Furthermore, given the choices between a fundamental theological principle of the Abrahamic religions, an important existentialist work of literature (whose author was chosen for the Nobel Prize), and an English rock band, I think the last of the three is the least obvious choice. (It might also be relevant that "Fall" brings up the entry on autumn.) --Todeswalzer | Talk 20:21, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm confused. Is not the article title for the "The Fall of Man", "The Fall of Man", and not the abreviated "The Fall"? Or do you want "The Fall" to redirect to "The Fall of Man" headed by a dab for "The Fall"?
Your use of the phrase 'English rock band' is a bit glib and dismissive, I'm not particullary sure that the existentialist writing from the 50s is more 'recognisable', or, to make the same jump in logic as above, inheriently more worthy, than its UK name sake. - Coil00 21:10, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

If any article (as opposed to a disambig.) should be titled The Fall, then it's this one IMHO. The Fall of Man seems a sensible title for that article, the novel should perhaps be under La Chute as that's what Camus called it. This band is very widely known outside of the UK - see the Influence section if this is not clear, and is the only one of the three to be primarily known as "The Fall". --Michig 20:54, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

This article has only one reasonable title, that which it presently has. The others should be titled The Fall of Man (as it presently is) and La Chute (which it presently isn't; I find the automatic translation into English culturally imperialistic). Ac@osr 21:25, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

After reviewing the above arguments, I am in agreement that we can now rule out The Fall of Man, since this is more specific than the abbreviated phrase. However, I still disagree with the page about the band trumping that of Camus' novel. The latter can't simply be renamed to its original French title, La Chute, since that isn't consistent with WP's naming conventions. Furthermore, I don't want to get into a debate over the relative worth of this band's music vis-a-vis Camus' writings (despite my own opinions on the matter, which I wisely or unwisely made clear above, and for which I apologize if it sounded dismissive).
The major point of contention I see within this debate is trying to resolve which is more "well-known". Well-known to whom? One could probably argue that both are equally obscure among the general public, that is, Anglophones; in that case, how are we to decide? In such a case, it makes more sense to me that the default should be wherever the name/title was first used, namely, Camus.
A possible compromise might be to have neither article at this page, and instead rework the disambig pages (which are themselves in need of work anyway). Failing that, the positions seem fairly entrenched: a number of comments posted on the discussion page of The Fall (novel) tend to share my own opinion on the matter, in contrast to most of the comments on this page, so I'm not sure how we're to resolve the issue. Ideas? --Todeswalzer | Talk 04:32, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

This is thinly disguised cultural snobbery. A Google search on "The Fall" Camus gives this and one for "The Fall" Mark E Smith gives this. In truth neither group nor novel will be immediately known to the wider public but you could say that about nine-tenths or more of Wikipedia's contents. The group, however, clearly occupy the larger niche. Ac@osr 08:45, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

As an observation, the article on the novel is quite short. Editors would be better served expanding, rather than arguing notability here. - Coil00 09:21, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Sorry to dredge up an old bone of contention, but I'd like to state for the record that prior to being assigned an essay on Camus' work, I'd heard of neither the novel nor the band, and om how I long for such a return to blissful ignorance.NorphTehDwarf 04:04, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Requested move

I've made a proposal to move this page to The Fall (band). As per the notice at the top of this page, please discuss at Talk:The Fall (novel). Thanks. --Todeswalzer|Talk 15:02, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Disambiguation

I suggest that this page be moved to The Fall (rock band), and that the disambiguation page be put in its place. SharkD 23:02, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

This has been argued over before. Look above. Bartleby 00:03, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Clearly this should be at Fall, The. I'll have a word with the appropriate people and start the ball rolling. -Ashley Pomeroy 17:51, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Closure of discussion

See Talk:The Fall (novel) for more discussion on this topic. Anthony Appleyard 10:13, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

POV

What's the NPOV problem on the page?

65.8.197.103 06:58, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

mushrooms

I recently filmed Simon Reynolds talking at NYU about post-punk. He has a book on the subject in the works. He ascribed much of The Fall's creativity to the consumption of drugs - specifically methamphetamine, apparently easily available and popular at the time, and psilocybin mushrooms which, according to Mr. Reynolds, are abundant in Manchester's parks due to the preponderance of precipitation in the neighborhood..

joly

This is news to me, having lived in Manchester all my life. Yes, it rains a lot, but no more than say, anywhere that is on the wrong side of a mountain chain with the prevailing wind blowing that way. Yes, MES spends a lot of his time either drunk or on speed (allegedly), but to say that his creative talents are owed to this is very disingenuous. There were (and are) a lot of people from the same scene who imbibed of the same stuff, and their output was nothing like that of The Fall's. RobC


Past members

Do we really need to list all of them? It makes the box oppressively long. Maybe one of these EasyTimeline dealies would be a better solution? Flowerparty■ 13:30, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

As much as it seems to irk MES, the number of people who have passed (and, it seems, continue to pass) through The Fall is one of their most notable points and one which people are likely to come somewhere like this to research. I'm not sure a timeline could be done cleanly enough without it dominating the page. How about a seperate article? Members Of The Fall. Even as I type that, I'm not convinced by it tho'. Ac@osr 19:49, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
That seems like a good idea. Would also allow more information on why they left, perhaps. If that happens though, would it be best to sort them alphabetically or chronologically? SaltyWater 21:58, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
I think a new page to work with would allow room for both formats. May I suggest List of musicians in The Fall? Malepheasant 23:09, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
You may. SaltyWater 23:12, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
Sounds good. I would suggest a chronological listing as most members have come in as someone's replacement; would make sense if we were going to have the timeline as well too. It would also allow for appropriate levels of detail to be added - played 6 gigs in 1998? 1 sentence. Craig Scanlon? Nice big paragraph. Ac@osr 17:44, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
What about Former members of The Fall? Or Mark E Smith's drunken onstage drummer sackings? --ajn (talk) 17:55, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
List of chaotic US tours by The Fall is looking like a runner....Ac@osr 18:35, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Receiver

I've been plugging some of the gaps in the discography recently and have been pondering doing one article to cover all the controversial Receiver albums from the late 90's, rather than dealing with each CD release (and re-release) individually. Thoughts, objections, etc? Ac@osr 18:50, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

I think they should be done together, yes. Fiend with a Violin, Oswald Defence Lawyer, Sinister Waltz, Oxymoron and Cheetham Hill are the "proper" albums, and that material's been recycled on about a thousand compilations since. I'm not sure the original five are in print any more, but I think there's a case for considering them as original albums rather than compilations (they were demos, live and alternate takes, but all of it was previously unreleased). It's the point where the Fall "jumped the shark" as far as I'm concerned. --ajn (talk) 12:04, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
I understand what you mean but I think they have to be considered alongside the compilations. Although the recordings were mostly unissued, the songs were all familiar from previous releases; there was only one "new" song across the whole bunch and that was a Mark-free zone. And a cover. They are all out of print although I think Sanctuary's box set of Cheetham Hill, Oxymoron and a live album is still around. Jumped The Shark? MES wrestles with that shark day in, day out. Has done for a looooooong time....Ac@osr 19:07, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
You may find the page at The Fall's Track Record helpful here, although by no means are the respective histories of each song definitive due to the sketchy sleevenotes —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Clayts (talk • contribs) 11:03, 14 May 2006 (UTC).

I've started Compilation albums by the Fall. At the moment it's just the Receiver stuff, but it could be expanded to include some of the good compilations (77-79, Hip Priest and Kamerads, the Beggars singles etc), as well as some of the later ones which are more interesting than the Receiver stuff but are still verging on "recycle and rip-off" (A World Bewitched, etc). --ajn (talk) 12:46, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

I like it. It's surely a better solution than having 30-odd separate pages that are never going to expand beyond a track list. Good work! I guess the live albums are the next problem... :) Flowerparty☀ 13:52, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
I've got every compilation listed on the official website on that page now. Needs tidying up, categorising, etc. What would be interesting is something relating to Smith's attitude to compilations. I seem to remember his being dead against backward-looking compilations at one time, feeling he had to justify Palace of Swords Reversed, and it's noticeable that after 1996 the number of compilations increased and the selections became very odd. As I said above, I think Smith's quality control just disappeared at that time, both in terms of the band's official records and his willingness to allow people to release any old tripe on compilations. --ajn (talk) 15:49, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Great stuff, excellent catch-all. I think Live albums by the Fall should be next - we can copy the useful info from the existing articles - I'm certainly not doing the Live From The Vaults series in anything other than a block...Ac@osr 16:51, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Just reading through this - the main reason why the selections on the group's compilations became a bit strange was that Smith only had the rights to certain eras of the group's work - during the Receiver years, he had everything thru to Perverted By Language and then nothing else until Light User Syndrome. Other eras had to be represented by the outtakes etc he had sold to Receiver. MES has said that he didn't oversee the Receiver comps and had nothing to do with the tracklistings, packaging and repackaging; I'll try and find it somewhere that's nice and linkable. Palace Of Swords Reversed is actually particularly interesting because it was Smith's own selection and on his own Cog Sinister imprint; it came at a time where that whole period was out of print - as a young Fall fan when it was originally issued (I was 14), it was nectar because what you could get at that time jumped from Dragnet to The Wonderful And Frightening....so between that and Hip Priest And Kamarads, you could get a decent picture of the era. Sorry, I'm rambling....Ac@osr 21:35, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Just Deleted Franz off-topicness

"Musically, Franz Ferdinand have moved away from the Fall influence that can be heard very clearly on an early track like 'Shopping for Blood' (a B side to the 'Darts of Pleasure' single), being closer now to Gang of Four or Josef K."

ONE: This is about how FF dont sound like the Fall
TWO: 'Shopping for Blood' is a blatant rip off of Iggy Pop's 'Nightclubbing' and Grauzone's Ice 'Eisbaer'
It had to go.

Yeah, that does not belong here at all. It's probably unsourced original research, too.--h i s s p a c e r e s e a r c h 11:14, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Bands who have been influenced by

At The Drive-In, probably the first 'screamo' band are incredibly similar to The Fall (if any band). In a live clip of ATDI from BDO '00, (where they walked off stage due to excessive crowd moshing), the lead singer shouts "Has anyone heard of a band called 'The Fall'?! If not you are listening to too much hip-hop and heavy metal!"

If you can find a citation for this, feel free to include it.--h i s s p a c e r e s e a r c h 14:45, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Contradiction

"Formed during punk rock's rise, The Fall never quite fit into that movement or its post-punk/new wave offshoots"

This is not only in obvius contradiction with the genre section that says "Rock, Post-punk", but it's also wrong because, in my opinion, The Fall defines what Post-punk was all about. To hell with poverty! 15:13, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, that line definitely has an opinionated tone and is probably worth changing. --h i s s p a c e r e s e a r c h 14:46, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Straw Pole

I'd like to add a representative selection of samples to the article, maybe one from each major album. I only have the early pre Orange albums on me at the momenent, but perhalps, this should be one by, ahem, popular demand. So, (i'm so sad), top 5 Fall tunes, by consensus, we'll pick most pop ten. In order:

Would we be better off adding a sound sample to each album article instead, with maybe excerpts from a couple of loose singles here on the main page (ie Kicker Conspiracy, How I Wrote Elastic Man)? If not then:

??

"For over a quarter of a century, The Fall have continued to produce music which varies richly in both character and quality" - given the sheer quantity of material produced by the band, this evaluation of 'varying in quality' seems to me fairly self-evident (name a band whose production hasn't varied over such a time-scale!) and unnecessarily judgmental given that they'd probably be no agreement even among Fall fans over which albums are better or worse than others. "His lyrics are sometimes maddeningly obscure..." - this also seems to have been written with someone with no real passion for (or understanding of) the Fall's work: why 'maddeningly' obscure? If you want 'blindingly' obvious lyrics, there are better places to go!

It's also written like a magazine article --AW 21:11, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Career overview section tone

It's very breathless and laudatory, and should be toned down --AW 21:12, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

making changes

I agree and I am instituting some changes that will hopefully improve it. It is also disorganized in my opinion. Why list all these quotes from critics like John Peel at the very beginning? I suggest starting with a biography and reserve a section for criticism at the end. Orman 15 February 2007

Whats wrong with that mans face?

Based on that picture, to paraphrase Beavis and Butthead, it is obvious this is one of those bands where they only have one original member, and the replaced all the other guys with younger musicians, so you can tell who the original member is because they look so old.

Career Overview

This section is pretty poor, and should be much less POV, it reads like amateur music juornalism at the moment. I started on the first para and realised that I was about to delete big chunks of it, so thought that I'd give people a chance to object before I do...FelixFelix talk 12:03, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Do we need that section at all? The introduction and the history is plenty, expecially as all the albums are covered in individual articles. Just my opinion....Ac@osr 15:25, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
I've removed the lot-I won't be offended by anyone who feels strongly about it reverting, I'm just being bold...FelixFelix talk 10:52, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Good call, tbh. SaltyWater 02:01, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Orpheo McCord

I've added McCord to the core line-up as Smith has confirmed him as full time in the latest edition of Record Collector. Ac@osr 16:36, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Supposed influence on hip-hop

The article claims the Wu-tang Clan's the RZA is a fan of the Fall. The source for this supposed quote is "Statik Selektah Radio". Googling "Statik Selektah Radio" returns 2 hits (this page and a mirror of it). Hardly seems a reliable source, given that it gets zero hits. No link is given to what "Statik Selektah Radio" is, or where one could find it. If this is a radio show, what is its frequency and from where does it broadcast? If it is over the internet, why no hits? Previously the article went so far as to claim the Wu-Tang's "Shame on a Nigga" sampled the Fall's "Gut of the Quantifier", with Cjmarsicano glibly stating they are "presuming that editor also recognized Fall sample in Wu-Tang tune"-- having listened to both songs many many times over the years, I have certainly never recognized any such thing, nor has anyone else. This fact has thankfully been removed, but the "S.S. Radio" cite remains contentious in my eyes. Souk 05:45, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

I have seen the tale repeated (Pitchfork, I think but I can dredge it up) but there's a good chance they got it from here. I think it's a prank - it was me who removed the sampling reference having checked the Wu-Tang track in question and I think we should just remove the suggestion completely. In fact, I've just done it. Ac@osr 08:01, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
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