Talk:Hungarian conquest of the Carpathian Basin

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
  (Redirected from Talk:The Hungarian landtaking)
Jump to navigation Jump to search
Good articleHungarian conquest of the Carpathian Basin has been listed as one of the History good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
March 10, 2013Good article nomineeListed
WikiProject Hungary (Rated GA-class, Top-importance)
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Hungary, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Hungary on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
 GA  This article has been rated as GA-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Top  This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Military history (Rated GA-Class)
MILHIST This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.
GA This article has been rated as GA-Class on the quality assessment scale.

The Volokhi from the The Russian Primary Chronicle[edit]

Samuel Hazzard Cross does not associate Volokhi with ancient Romans, but with Vlakhs ("This mention of the Slavs settled among the Vlakhs points to the presence of at least isolated groups of Slavs on the Danube as early as the first and second centuries A.D., and is a reflex of Trajan's Dacian campaigns of 101-102 and 105- 106"). "Vlakhs" is the deprecated spelling for "Vlachs": [1] [2]. 123Steller (talk) 07:17, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

Do you think that Cross wrote of the Vlach conquest of Dacia under the Vlach emperor Trajan? Borsoka (talk) 08:22, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
Vlachs are the descendants of a Romanized population. 123Steller (talk) 08:28, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
So you say, that Trajan was a Vlach emperor and the Vlachs conquered Dacia. Borsoka (talk) 08:46, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
I have not made any personal statement about Trajan. 123Steller (talk) 08:59, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
Do you suggest that Cross's reference to the Roman conquest of Dacia under the Roman Emperor Trajan in connection with the Volokhi shows that he does not associate the Volokhi with the ancient Romans, but with the medieval Vlachs? Borsoka (talk) 11:31, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
I've read the text again more carefully and I am confused by Cross's interpretation. After all, the text refers to Pannonia or to Dacia? Where were the Volokhi living before being expelled by the Magyars? Because Trajan conquered only Dacia, Pannonia was a Roman province since 20 AD.123Steller (talk) 12:07, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
According to the Primary Chronicle, the Slavs were the autochthonous population of the Carpathian Basin. The Slavs were conquered by the Romans (=Volokhi) who ruled the territory until the Hungarian conquest (the rulers of the Carolingian Empire styled themselves as Emperors of the Romans). Borsoka (talk) 13:00, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
March of Pannonia was a frontier march of the Carolingian Empire, but how is that related to Trajan's Dacian campaigns of 101-102 and 105-106? Dacia and Pannonia are distinct regions. 123Steller (talk) 13:50, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
Yes. And? What is clear, that Cross identifies the Volokhi with the ancient Romans. Borsoka (talk) 15:36, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

Please keep the neutrality regarding the identification of the Volokhi. Also, please read the analysis from here (the chapter Ethnical Criteria in the Gesta Hungarorum and the Russian Primary Chronicle with Special Reference to "Romans" (Romani) and "Blachii" (Vlachi or Voloch)). "The wide range of theories indicates the difficulties involved in identifying the "Volohs" of the Russian Primary Chronicle, a subject that will continue to spark controversy for a long time to come. It is, in fact, questionable whether an authoritative answer can be found" 123Steller (talk) 09:27, 18 May 2017 (UTC)

The phrase "The identification of the Volokhi and Volkhi with the Franks, however, is not accepted by all scholars" treats this as the dominant view. That is a subjective approach. 123Steller (talk) 09:39, 18 May 2017 (UTC)

Translation of the text of the Russian Primary Chronicle[edit]

Cross translates the expression Volokhi and Volkhi in the original text of the Primary Chronicle as Vlachs. However, the identification of the Volokhi and Volkhi as Vlachs (or Romanians) is highly controversial. A remark by Cross himself suggests that he associates the Volokhi with the Romans under Emperor Trajan (note note 29 on page 235 in Cross' cited translation). Ryszard Grzesik (and other scholars) associates the Volokhi/Volkhi with the Franks (page 31 in Grzesik's cited work). If we want to maintain the neutrality of the text, we should use the original expressions (Volokhi/Volkhi) in the translation based on reliable source. This method also enables readers to understand the reasons of the scholarly debate about the report of the Hungarian conquest in the Russian Primary Chronicle. Borsoka (talk) 01:29, 18 May 2017 (UTC)

OK. I agree. 123Steller (talk) 09:24, 18 May 2017 (UTC)