Talk:The Victors

This article was nominated for deletion on 11 January 2012 (UTC). The result of the discussion was speedy keep.

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Songs

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Parody

Response to Pentawing: Restored parody. It's traditional, all right, and part of the school's history. This was being sung in the dorms (East Quad, West Quad) 1979-84; confirmed by alums as having ben sung in the 50s. And I have two degrees from Michigan, thanks. Adamdavis

Do you have a source for that? Otherwise, it will/might be considered vandalism (which the UM and associated articles have experienced, especially at the hands of Ohio State and Michigan State supporters). Hence, I have decided to move the passage here until some sort of reference can be found.

A parody of the lyrics exist since the 1950s. It had been sung in UM residence halls, such as East Quad and West Quad, from 1979 to 1984.

Traditional Parody

Hail! to the victims valiant

Hail! to the conquered heroes

Hail! Hail! to Michigan

the doormats of the west

Pentawing^Talk 06:33, 11 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think you're being a bit overprotective of the alma mater here; it's an encyclopedia article, and parodies of a school song that were part of the school lore would seem to me to be appropriate. Perhaps it should have a header "folklore", as many sections for colleges and universities do? Like most folklore, it left few documentary traces (for example, it would be very hard to establish that "progressive" parties were part of the dorm culture at Michigan in the 70s and 80s, though they assuredly were). But rather than engage in an edit-war, I'll let others decide if they think a parody properly belongs as part of the article, as parodies are included in the article on "Battle Hymn of the Republic" Adamdavis 03:29, 12 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

With your suggesting to place the parody under "folklore," maybe it will work. However, the wording has to reflect that (in order to prevent the idea that the parody, if added, is vandalism). Also, it would probably be a good idea to explain why such lyrics were sung, when someone outside UM believes that most, if not all, people from UM are rabid partisans (personally, I never heard the parody lyrics on campus). Pentawing^Talk 04:18, 12 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In the meantime, I have also moved the following passage as I am unable to prove it at this time.

The Victors is also the only fight song in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.

Pentawing^Talk 06:33, 11 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Tune

The melody of the fight song is very similar to the trio section from The Spirit of Liberty March. (not Hail to the Spirit of Liberty by Sousa) This march appears on the Karussells of Europe recording. At one point, the University of Michigan article had a note that it was George (Geo) Rosey's and was copyrighted earlier in 1898. However, I can find no corroborating data, including searching the Library of Congress.

Some Spartans sent me a link to the other song. The info I find from Karussells of Europe suggest it to be a traditional. [[1]] MMetro 01:29, 19 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Champions of the West

These states constituted the former Northwest Territory: Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Michigan, Wisconsin, and Minnesota. Is not somewhat probable that -- "Champions of the NorthWest" simply wouldn't scan, and was shortened by the songwriter to "West"? 66.65.76.15 21:25, 19 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No. The Big Ten Conference was long unofficially known as the "Western Conference." Funnyhat 02:50, 17 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The page says "The phrase "champions of the west" is often misunderstood", but does not say misunderstood as what, and so reads poorly. If it is often misunderstood, then, since it's so often maybe someone has an example? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.229.151.216 (talk) 15:41, 6 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes it is true that the specific reference to "champions of the West" refers to (or very probably anyway) the common name for the athletic conference, but it begs the question (to a small extant) as to how the conference got that name. The 20th and 21st century definition of the "west" is completely different than the 19th century definition. Illinois, Michigan, Wisconsin, etc, were "the West." See for example Theodore Roosevelt's The Winning of the West which is about territory east of the Mississippi, not what we nowadays call "the West." There are many other examples in the literature of the day that make this fact clear. What we in the 21st century call "the West" was called "the Far West" (see Volume 4 of Roosevelt). Roosevelt's work was written in 1889, and "the Victors" was written in 1898. LaurentianShield (talk) 21:13, 8 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Sousa Claim

The U of M Men's Glee Club references the Sousa claim when introducing The Victors in its concerts; it did when I was there in the late 60s and early 70s and to the best of my knowledge still does now. I'd always assumed that the history was internal lore handed down from when it happened; the Glee Club has long had close ties to the School of Music and Sousa had close ties to the U of M, particularly in the years 1915-1926 when the Director of the Marching Band was Wilfred Wilson, who was a close friend (see http://mmb.music.umich.edu/history/wilson.asp, retrieved 10/25/09). It seems reinforced by Sousa refusing Wilson's request to write a march for the U of M Band, saying that they already had a great one (see the same reference).Bethunch (talk) 03:37, 25 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I am wondering about the claim that sousa stated The Victors was the greatest college fight song. I have seen this in numerous places stating that he said this about On Wisconsin. A google search shows pretty much 50/50 either way. Is the quote provided in any context in the prowler or is just the standard "Sousa said it was the best" remark that I see everywhere? If the latter is the case, it should probably be removed from the article. --Dbackes 16:11, 20 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I found that notation in the Prowler (when it was readily available on Google Books before the current copyright row at Google). Pentawing^Talk 22:36, 21 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Quote I found.

John Philip Sousa told me 25 years ago that he considered "The Victors" one of the nation's finesst military marches and the best original college song he had ever heard. During the World War it was played frequently by both French and German military bands.

Charles D. Kountz, of Columbus, OH, University of Michigan class of 1902, "Football Victory Brought "The Victors" The Michigan Alumnus 1930-1931, courtesy of The Bentley Historical Collection, University of Michigan MMetro 14:36, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The leaders and (the) best

Is it "the leaders and best" as the article says or "the leaders and the best", because I recall a "the" in there, which matches the cadence of "the victors of the West" line, and a lot of people on the Internet (via google) think it's "the best" as well, far more than just "best", although using the Internet to figure anything out is pretty dodgy (yes, even wikipedia). Who determines the official song? What's written, somewhere, or how it is sung? This seems pretty problematic... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.229.151.216 (talk) 15:52, 6 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It's "the leaders and best" officially and that's how it's sung as well; you hold out "lead" for 2 counts and "best" for 4 counts while the rest of the syllables are 1 count. There is no "the" before "best", except during part of the MMB's cadence to the Big House, which is not supposed to be "The Victors" anyways. A lot of people just insert a "the" in there b/c they try to make the verses symmetrical, which they're not. Also, there is no line that says "victors of the west"; it's "champions of the west". The official song is determined by the University, which you can look up the verses to at http://www.umich.edu/~info/inside.html?http://www.umich.edu/~info/victors.html BigP14 16:11, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Lyrics

Wordbuilder, I don't understand your insistence on removing the lyrics. The article does not violate WP:NOT#LYRICS because of the other content, the lyrics are public domain, and they add significantly to the article's value. -TheMile (talk) 04:21, 1 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

TheMile, I hadn't previously seen your message. I apologize for not responding sooner. Wikipedia:Centralized discussion/Fight songs has now been closed with a consensus to not keep fight song lyrics on Wikipedia. →Wordbuilder (talk) 22:27, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have since reverted my edits to other fight songs from which I removed lyrics. However, I was not the editor who last removed the lyrics from this article. →Wordbuilder (talk) 22:01, 20 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Notability

From a discussion on merging on the Talk:University of Michigan page: As a song The Victors is notable without even being placed into the category of Fight Songs. It was named in Wikipedia:Centralized_discussion/Fight_songs as an example of a notable fight song. The article itself has a ref from the New York Times. Template:Big Ten fight songs is one of many places that refer to the song and other Big Ten songs directly. The sports articles use a template similar to Template:NCAAFootballSchool where the fight song has its own link. Group29 (talk) 22:09, 12 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

University of Michigan Project

University of Michigan is not represented with a project at Category:WikiProject Universities. Please comment at Talk:University_of_Michigan#Should_University_of_Michigan_have_a_project.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 02:05, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Unusual lyrics or unusual use ?

I brought this statement to the talk page to get a better understanding if there might be some confusion as to just what is suppose to be expressed. It would appear that two different points are being made in the same statement: "The lyrics are unusual for a fight song, in that the typical fight song exhorts its team to play well and win, whereas "The Victors" is sung in celebration of a win rather than as an act to encourage success."

I thought it best to have the reaction of those that come from that environment to get across the nuances that might be missing in the conscious expressions but understood subconsciously by UM's in the know. I am confused about the lyrics being unique or the song being used in a unique manner after a decisive move? The other statement about use of the song certainly makes it seem as if it is used in more than after decisive actions?76.170.88.72 (talk) 08:29, 13 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]