Talk:Tipu Sultan

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Move to "Tipu Sultan"[edit]

Seeing as his name is ٹیپو سلطان and not تپپو سلطان, his name is correctly Romanized as "Tipu" and not "Tippu". Should this be moved to Tipu Sultan instead? I think so. GSMR (talk) 18:55, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Where's that little important part that he was a Shiite. There's no reference to that though this stubborn battle till his death is reported in French and English sources as one of the "...vile traits of Shiites." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.254.193.177 (talk) 07:34, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Attitude towards Christians[edit]

I have removed the opening sentence "Tipu was widely reputed to be anti-Christian". This is not found in the reference provided. Such a harsh, general statement as the opening sentence gives reader no further incentive to read the further paragraphs and is clearly a POV push. If Tipu had built a Christian church at the request of French, then should we also write that he was a Christian missionary? No I guess. Zencv Whisper 11:27, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Building a Christian church does not even hint that Tipu could be a Christian missionary. So, i fail to understand your logic. Anyway, the disputed statement has now been sourced and reworded from, "Tipu was widely reputed to be anti-Christian" to "Tipu was widely reputed to be a fanatical anti-Christian". These are referenced by the following:
  • The British Isles and the War of American Independence by Stephen Conway
  • South Kanara, 1799-1860: a study in colonial administration and regional response by N. Shyam Bhat
  • Religion and society in South India: Hindus, Muslims, and Christians by J. B. Prashant More, Institute for Research in Social Sciences and Humanities of MESHAR.
These should be more than enough. Furthermore, keep in mind that the article does not imply that he was anti-Christian, but mentions the now sourced fact that he was widely believed to be anti-Christian. Joyson Konkani 13:22, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
The first reference just says "Tipu was regarded as a fanatical anti Christian". Other sources mention his anti Christian policies, but do not mention that he was "fanatical anti Christian". Just because one (biased) historian says that "he was regarded as a fanatical anti Christian", you cannot say "widely believed". To have such a wording, you need more concensus among historians. Also Tipus perceived hostility towards Christians could be due to anti British sentiments as well as one of your sources say. So we have to have more neutral sentence. I have corrected accordingly Zencv Whisper 14:16, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
OK. Thanks for the correction. Joyson Konkani 15:03, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Recently added to article[edit]

The following text was recently added to the article. I have removed it because it is unencyclopedic in form; it may contain useful information to add to the article.

Error: No text given for quotation (or equals sign used in the actual argument to an unnamed parameter)

Tipu's Mother[edit]

Bowring has Fakhr-un-nissa as being the daughter of Mir Moin-ud-din, Governor of Kadapa, rather than Shahal Tariq (as in the article). Are Moin-ud-din and Shahal Tariq the same person?

Graeme Cook (talk) 10:50, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

This source claims Shahal Tariq is Fakhr-un-nissa's mother. The article repeats this claim... Magic♪piano 18:01, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
Sigh. Large tracts from that source (Freedom fighters of India by Lion M. G. Agrawal) are directly cut/pasted into the article. Magic♪piano 18:06, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
Double sigh. Said book appears to be a compilation of Wikipedia articles. Magic♪piano 19:39, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Raccoonvs (talk) 00:50, 9 June 2011 (UTC)"There is also a recent finding that the popular legendary woman warrior Unniyarcha was a contemporary of Tipu Sultan and in fact Tipu had captured her in war and taken her to Mysore in 1790 May and forced her to be one of his wives. The finding was made by writer Manantheri Bhaskaran who claims to be Unniyarcha's relative (4th generation grandson of Unniyarcha's brother)"

This claim cannot be correct as Unniyarcha lived in 16th Century while Tippu is from 2 centuries later.

Please remove this sentenceRaccoonvs (talk) 00:50, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Treatment of prisoners[edit]

The statement of Professor Sheikh Ali (..."took his stand on the bedrock of humanity, regarding all his subjects as equal citizen to live in peace, harmony and concord.") says nothing about the headlined "Treatment of prisoners" itself and represents a harsh contrast to what is posted in the "Attitude towards Christians" section ... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.82.130.141 (talk) 10:51, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

No account of Tipu Sultan is neutral. They either have an anti-Tipu or pro-Tipu bias. Joyson Noel Holla at me! 12:25, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

My point is, that this looks like a private impression of Prof. Ali which says nothing about the topic (...treatment of prisoners...) ... what kind of FACT (concerning treatment of prisoners) is this ???? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.82.140.238 (talk) 17:01, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

It is a private impression, unless it is backed up with evidence. Anyway, he is quoted. It is not being mentioned as FACT, but as his own personal opinion. Joyson Noel Holla at me! 17:21, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

...I Repeat: ... it says nothing about treatment of prisoners —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.70.42.23 (talk) 18:06, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

The anon has a point. The quote is about Tipu's subjects (i.e. citizens of Mysore), not his prisoners (captives taken from various places, and prisoners of war). The quote may be appropriate to use, but it appears out of place in a short section with that title. Magic♪piano 18:21, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
I agree too. I misunderstood what he meant. This is what happens when you read in haste. Joyson Noel Holla at me! 18:28, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Why is this section even present in the history of Tipu Sultan? Is it customary in Wikipedia, when writing encyclopedic article about rulers, to explain how they treated prisoners? Moreover, as it stands, the purpose of this short section seems to be to say that thirteen British prisoners were found dead at the end of the final siege. This does not constitute any great insight into how Tipu treated prisoners. Recommend this section be removed.Kishorekumar 62 (talk) 06:57, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Frivolous comments about Unniyarcha[edit]

Unfounded comments about the 16th century legendary folklore heroine Unniyarcha have been included in this article, connecting her to Tipu Sultan of the 18th century. The fundamental timeline contradiction of two centuries is sufficient reason to remove those comments from section 4.1 of this article. Serious editors of this article please take note and remove those edits mentioning Unniyarcha. Irresponsible journalism in Kerala, where any unfounded claim can be set off as a rumour should not be reason to twist real history of Tipu Sultan. Literary historians have for long dated the folklores Vadakkan Pattukal to the 16th century. The legends of Unniyarcha originate from the folklores, two centuries prior to Tipu Sultan! Aaroamal (talk) 22:03, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

Note[edit]

Sultanate of Mysore and the Kingdom of Mysore are two totally different dynasties.```(182.182.33.151 (talk) 08:27, 31 May 2012 (UTC))

Petty Kingdoms[edit]

Under "Ruler of Mysore" the article says: "He managed to subdue all the petty kingdoms in the south" South of what? South India? South Asia? What are "petty" kingdoms? How do we define "petty"? We need an explanation or reliable citations, or we need to remove that sentence. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Keecheril (talkcontribs) 22:16, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Praise[edit]

Please show both sides of the coin and not see Tipu in black or white. There seems to be an attempt to heap unwarranted praise upon Tipu Sultan in an attempt to make him some sort of a deity and to project him as a hero of certain regions. I would request editors to look out for original research and project facts as it is while not trying to cover them up. Wikipedia is not a medium to be used to glorify individuals. Kanga Roo in the Zoo (talk) 10:23, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

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I agree - the article should be objective. Notthebestusername (talk) 04:04, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

You have a lot of wrong information updated[edit]

You are clearly showing Tipu Sultan as a villain where as everywhere he is noted as a hero. The author should realize that he is the only personality an Indian whose mention and photo is in NASA office. there has to be some research done in this case as the next generation will read about this person. There school books show he was a hero and your page shows he was a big villain. You have not mentioned his achievements clearly where as you have only mentioned his bad deeds. I request humbly please update correct information about this great man.He never abducted children, please provide the proof of him doing this and also update his great words said. I am a regular reader of your articles and I was really upset reading this article of Tipu. Please get the proper information. Some people are trying to malign his image based on communal grounds but it looks like wikipedia is supporting them on this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.28.149.29 (talk) 12:11, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

Infobox Incorrect Year[edit]

The year of his coronation and the commencement of his reign should, I assume, be 1782, not 1750. 114.143.116.46 (talk) 11:37, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

French Training[edit]

Kansas Bear, your reference states a connection between Mysore and the French Military (including military training), however nowhere does it say the entire military of Tipu Sultan was trained by the French. Do you have a reference for that? Don't you think that is like saying Mysore trained the British army because the British took rocket technology and techniques from Tipu? Xtremedood (talk) 02:10, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

If I were you, I'd watch your tone. You've already been blocked for edit warring and as I have told Ghatus, editors that are here with an agenda eventually end up blocked or banned.
"In alliance with the French in their struggle with the British, and in Mysore's struggles with other surrounding powers, both Tipu and his father used their French trained army..."
  • "During the seventeenth century, the czars hired West European officers for training and commanding the Western-style infantry units equipped with firearms. In 1750, Dupleix deputed some French officers to Haidars Ali's force. In 1770, a French officer named Stenet, who had served in the Siege of Trinchinopolly, became chief of Haidar's artillery.{...] In 1761, with the aid of European-trained artillery..."
  • A Comprehensive History of India, Volume 3, page 56, "He[Hyder Ali] recognised the superiority of western military techniques and, with the help of the French, trained his army on western lines."
  • All The King's Men: The British Soldier from the Restoration to Waterloo, Saul David, "Wellesley was astonished to see 2,000 of Tipu's French- trained infantry advancing in column on the 33rd 'with the utmost steadiness...".[1]
  • 500 Great Military Leaders, Spencer Tucker, page 751, "He received military training from the French, who were then supplying and training the Mysore Army."
  • The Decline and Fall of the British Empire, 1781-1997, Piers Brendon, page 44, "His French-trained army was in some respects superior to that of the British. Tipu's artillery was both larger and...."
  • The State at War in South Asia, Pradeep Barua, page 86, "Tippu's infantry were trained along European lines, mainly by the French..."
Check out books.google.com, you might find something! --Kansas Bear (talk) 04:01, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
My tone is fine.
"In alliance with the French in their struggle with the British, and in Mysore's struggles with other surrounding powers, both Tipu and his father used their French trained army..."<--- This is taken from the Wikipedia article.
"During the seventeenth century, the czars hired West European officers for training and commanding the Western-style infantry units equipped with firearms. In 1750, Dupleix deputed some French officers to Haidars Ali's force. In 1770, a French officer named Stenet, who had served in the Siege of Trinchinopolly, became chief of Haidar's artillery.{...] In 1761, with the aid of European-trained artillery..." <---This is not referring to the training of the whole army of Mysore. It is simply stating that a French officer named Stenet become chief of Haidar's artillery. No where is training mentioned. Also, Haider Ali and Tipu Sultan are different people.
"A Comprehensive History of India, Volume 3, page 56, "He[Hyder Ali] recognised the superiority of western military techniques and, with the help of the French, trained his army on western lines." <--- So this source states that atleast 2,000 of Tipu's soldiers were French trained. Nowhere does it state the entire military.
"He[Hyder Ali] recognised the superiority of western military techniques and, with the help of the French, trained his army on western lines"<---This was the army of Haider Ali, not Tipu Sultan. Also, Sterling Publishers Private Limited is in my view not a great publisher. Your initial source (Published by Routledge and on page 77) [2] goes more into detail pertaining to the French connection to Tipu's army. No where does it state the entire Army of Tipu Sultan was French trained.
The last three sources are also general and do not go into detail. Under Tipu Sultan, new and unique (non-European) styles of military warfare were introduced, including Mysorean metallic-rocket warfare. Tipu Sultan himself wrote the manual Fathul Mujahidin, which detailed how to utilize this. From the article it states: "Tipu Sultan's father had expanded on Mysore's use of rocketry, making critical innovations in the rockets themselves and the military logistics of their use. He deployed as many as 1,200 specialised troops in his army to operate rocket launchers. These men were skilled in operating the weapons and were trained to launch their rockets at an angle calculated from the diameter of the cylinder and the distance to the target." Did the French have any role in the usage of rocket artillery and did the French train these specialized troops? I do not think so, as it was Tipu Sultan himself that was the first in recorded history to use these types of rockets (even before the French). The British later copied Tipu's design. Therefore we can see that the French may have trained parts of Tipu Sultan's infantry, but they did not train the whole army. The also strongly doubt the French had any part or any significant part to play in Tipu Sultan's cavalry, elephants, etc. Xtremedood (talk) 06:10, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
Clearly, after the presenting sources showing French trained army, you just don't like the fact that the Mysore army was French trained. Your continued weaseling in the word "whole", which does not appear in the sentence shows why you are ignoring reliable sources and what they state. I am not required to find your weasel word "whole", since the word "whole" does not appear in the sentence:
"In alliance with the French in their struggle with the British, and in Mysore's struggles with other surrounding powers, both Tipu and his father used their French trained army."
I don't see the word "whole" anywhere, which is your invention, therefore any reliable source that states, "French trained army" can and will be used. --Kansas Bear (talk) 15:04, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
I recommend you go read page 77 of your source (that you referenced) on the article [3]. It goes into detail about the French influence in the Mysorean military. The army is a complex structure. The army consists of various segments. From what I see according to the more detailed sources that I've seen, the French played a role in regards to the infantry. However I do not see the French training the whole army, such as the Mysorean Rocket division, the cavalry, the elephants, etc. There are various divisions within an army. Those sources that say the French trained the army (taken as the entire army), should therefore be considered as too general. I do not see any proof that the French trained the whole Mysore army. As I have stated previously, do you have any proof the French trained the Mysore Rocket division? Do you have proof that they trained the cavalry? Do you have proof that they trained the elephants? Do you have proof that they trained the entire Mysore army? Also, Tipu Sultan's training of his army should not be neglected. He wrote the Fathul Mujahid, which is an important rocket manual. Tipu pioneered military Rocket technology and techniques pertaining to the usage of Rockets in the military (before France or Britain). I do not think his accomplishments, the indigenous training methods of his army, and other aspects of his military should be brushed over by all-encompassing and general terminology such as 'the French trained his entire army.' Xtremedood (talk) 22:18, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
I recommend you go read the sources I have posted. You continue to repeat the same tired phrase, I do not see the French training the whole army..., which does not appear in the sentence in question. The sentence is properly sourced;
"''During the seventeenth century, the "czars" hired West European officers for training and commanding the Western-style infantry units equipped with firearms. In 1750, Dupleix deputed some French officers to Haidars Ali's force. In 1770, a French officer named Stenet, who had served in the Siege of Trinchinopolly, became chief of Haidar's artillery.{...] In 1761, with the aid of European-trained artillery..."
Since you are having problems understanding English, what is the topic of the paragraph according to the first sentence? Answer:Czars were hiring West European officers to train in Western style infantry units equipped with firearms.
The next sentence clearly indicates that Dupleix deputed French officers to Haidars force, therefore they were training as pertaining to the previous sentence. Along with the next sentence making a French officer chief of artillery.
Regardless of all this, there are other sources, that clearly state French trained army, so continue to bring up everything that is not in the sentence("whole army", rockets, elephants, etc.), since that is all you have. Since clearly you did not state this in your edit summary, simply stating, "Did not find reference stating his army was French trained". Odd how you have expanded to include more. Nothing like moving the goalposts. --Kansas Bear (talk) 01:11, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
I have an issue with both Tipu and his father used their French trained army as stated in this article. This statement implies that the entire army of Mysore was French trained. According to this source [4] the usage of rockets in the military reemerged under Tipu Sultan and its usage should not be given credit to the French, since the French did not teach Mysore how to use them, nor do I see any evidence that the French trained Mysore's rocket division. This source also makes note of indigenous rocket forces that were trained by Mysore, not the French. Mysore also introduced a type of rocket that was not used previously and was metallic, rather than made of Bamboo (like Chinese rockets).
"After having fallen into disuse with the invention and improvement of cannon, rockets reemerged in the Mysore of Hyder and Tipu in the second half of the 18th century."[5]
Also, your personal attacks towards me are a hindrance to effective discourse on the matter. Xtremedood (talk) 05:39, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

Clearly the French should not get credit for training Mysore's rocket division. They may get credit for training portions of the infantry. Xtremedood (talk) 05:39, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

"your personal attacks towards me are a hindrance to effective discourse on the matter"
Compared to you consistently ignoring what sources state? Compared to you consistently adding your opinion into a sentence(rockets, elephants, "whole army")? This is what has been a hindrance to effective discourse on the matter. Considering you have ignored what the source(s), in question, state, I could only assume you were having issues with English. --Kansas Bear (talk) 11:11, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
How is stating the various segments of an army, an opinion? Also, I am not ignoring the sources. My statements are clear. I believe that the sources that refer to the French training the army as a whole are taking for granted the concept of an “army” and I believe that the more detailed sources referenced state that segments of Mysore’s infantry (not entire army) that received French training. What I suggest is a closer examination of the training at hand. Perhaps a separate section within the article that goes into detail about the French training. Once again, it is important not to ignore the sources that claim that the Mysorean rockets and the techniques involved with its utilization were indigenous, not French. Xtremedood (talk) 03:24, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
Once again, you are the only one equating that sentence with "rockets". If anything, since your are so concerned with rockets, why have you not added that information to the lead? Perhaps something similarly mentioned in the Hyder Ali article. Clearly this would differentiate from what Tipu and his father achieved with rockets and the assistance the French gave them. --Kansas Bear (talk) 00:05, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

Sultanat-e-Khudadad of Mysore[edit]

Anwar Haroon, a prominent author regarding the history of Hyder Ali and Tipu Sultan mentions that Mysore was known as the Sultanat-e-Khudadad.--Bonaparte2015 (talk) 07:26, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 November 2015[edit]

ABRAR SAHEB (talk) 16:12, 7 November 2015 (UTC) Hi iam ABRAR SAHEB Please help me to change and update date of birth of great king on mysore TIPPU SULTAN

The present birthdate is also sourced to a supposedly reliable and authoritative source (Mohibbul Hasan's History of Tipu Sultan). Is it possible that the discrepancy in dates is due to conversion of the recorded date (20th Dhu al-Hijjah, 1163 AH)) to the Julian rather than Gregorian calendar (which would have been about 10 days then)? Magic♪piano 16:45, 7 November 2015 (UTC)
I collapse the massive wall of text and changed the answered parameter of this request to yes as it has been answered. --Stabila711 (talk) 17:42, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 November 2015[edit]

ABRAR SAHEB (talk) 14:27, 8 November 2015 (UTC) hi iam abrar saheb their is wrong update on birth date of tippu sultan king of mysore real date of birth is 10th november 1750 which is recorded in book of great historian professor B sheik ali and same is been accepted and ordered by karnataka government as tippu sultan birth aniverssary as on 10th november please edit change this information

but karnataka govenment has ordered its king birth anniversary on 10th November dont you belive we should also accept same and change this tippu sultan was king of mysore which is now karnataka

what more reliable should we need then karnataka government in this matter please do need full in this matter

Please confine your responses to your initial request. See HELP:Using talk pages. Governments have been known to issue incorrect information, and (as I said above) neither date is obviously wrong without clarification. Magic♪piano 16:01, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

Tyrant[edit]

Tipu was a tyrant and religious bigot. His atrocities and persecution of Hindus and Christians in Malabar, Karnataka (Coorg) and Tamil Nadu wee well documented. He was a Southern version of Aurangazeb. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.169.179.4 (talk) 12:33, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

WP:NPOV issue[edit]

  1. My recent edit which I did following WP:NPOV policy has been reverted without giving any proper reason, only reason given was Original wording was better (some claim isn't good), which is not fair enough reason. Article more sound like "anti-Tipu" when there are sufficient reliable sources which claim that "Tipu was secular leader". We should mention both claims. Because there are also reliable claims for his act of "religious bigotry". Both claims should be mentioned in lead. (Not only one). --Human3015TALK  09:54, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
  1. "Tipu is regarded as hero in Pakistan" lacks source and seems POV.
  2. "The Karnataka Government has been lately trying to portray Tipu Sultan as a State Hero" is WP:UNDUE to mention in lead and Wikipedia is WP:NOTNEWS. Also this sentence is original research which indirectly says "Tipu is not hero but Karnataka government is trying to make him hero".--Human3015TALK  10:07, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
  • This doesn't need an NPOV tag Human3015. My reversion was mostly because of the way the statement was framed (some claim is not a good way to phrase things). Either way, that part of the lead is way too detailed. A statement about the contrasting views of Tipu Sultan is likely more than enough. Agree completely about the two points you've raised above. --regentspark (comment) 01:33, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

Faith in Astrology[edit]

As the combined forces of the British, the Nizam and the Marathas opposed Srirangapatanam, Tipu Sultan developed faith in astrological predictions which foretold a malefic period for him from 1790 onwards. Upon the advice of local Brahmin astrologers, Tipu offered pujas and carried out feeding of Brahmins and advanced land-grants to temples, especially after his defeat of 1791 and the subsequent Srirangapatanam Treaty of 1792.

Reference: 1. Life of Raja Kesavadas by V.R. Parameswaran Pillai, N.B.S. Publications, Kottayam, Kerala, 1973 [Book]

2. To be ascertained: Tipu and astrology references in Lewis Rice's Epigraphia Carnatica

http://www.archive.org/details/epigraphiacarnat04mysouoft 

(this will require several hours of study)

3. Or the book History of Mysore by Lewis Rice (which sources from the voluminous Epigraphia Carnatica).

Enter2n1 (talk) 07:32, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

Deletion of Wrong fact about Tipu Sultan[edit]

Dear Sir,

There is wrong fact mentioned on wikipedia that Tipu sultan has forcefully converted 200 Brahmins to Islam, No such evidence is present in Gazette of Maysore or British India Library, Kindly delete this information from your website with immediate effect, Your prompt reply on this matter will be highly appreciated Amjad.siddiqui1984 (talk) 16:03, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Wrong fact mentioned on wikipdia: Calicut (Kozhikode)

In 1788, Tipu ordered his governor in Calicut Sher Khan to begin the process of converting Hindus to Islam, and in July of that year, 200 Brahmins were forcibly converted.[48]

Why should we remove it? It is cited to what appears to be a reputable source. Magic♪piano 16:52, 3 December 2015 (UTC)