Talk:Tivadar Csontváry Kosztka/Archive 1

Archive 1

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Please refer the references, and don't do more vandalism!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.83.4.22 (talk) 18:16, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Plen air or sunway"

Please don't rewrite "sunway" to "plen air". Csontváry in his biography writes "sunway" (= the way of the sun"), and adds that he was not sure in this word and doesn't surely understood it; we don't know exactly what is this word to meaning. It seems to be he thought that he had a unique painting style and called it "sunway painting". Meaninglessness of this world and other facts of his life suggested to a lot people that Csontváry had schizoid personality, schizoaffective disorder, or some similar neurodivergency, despite of that he was a real genius. Gubbubu (talk) 08:50, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Csontváry's unverified Slovak ethnicity

Why do you always delete if i write he had slovak origin? I put 4 sources, 2 were hungarian and you wrote me its fastcis... It was personaly attack to my. Its evident that his origin is discutable.. Yes he was hungarian painter, I never say different. But its origin is not clear. He was born in slovakia, like lot of hungarians, but.... kosztka means small bone in slovakian, he was going to slovak elementary school (in town it was german and hungarian school), he was from slovak ethnic area. he had slovak friends. he lived in Halič - in that time almost clean slovakian village. He lived in Spisska Nova Ves - Slovak town with german minority. He used name Csontváry only last 19 years of his life.. Changed his name like other ethnic slovak Alexander Petrovic (Petofi)... Its preparing new book about him and there will lot of proofs that his origin and ethicity was Slovak.

i) Your sources -including that fascist site- are not reliable. ii) He was born in Hungary, and not in Slovakia. Slovakia exists from 1993. iii) His ancestors were Poles, and not Slovaks. His mother was Franciska Heizelmayer (doesn't sound very Slovak) Kosztka is a Slavic word. "He has more pictures from Slovakia than from Hungaria" His work was connected with Hungary (Upper Hungary) and not with Slovakia. You can not understand this simple thing? The fact that the territory he lived on became a part of another country wont change this fact. (as Vasily Kamensky's work is not connected with the CCCP) "He drawn Tatras" As previous. Lucky to him that he did not draw the Sahara, per you he would be Berber or Nubian... iv)"he had slovak friends" NO COMMENT. Not a scientific argument. v)Alexander Petrovic was serb, not Slovak. vi)"He lived in Spisska Nova Ves-Slovak town with german minority." Then Igló/Zipser Neudorf: a Hungarian town with German majority and Hungarian, Slovak minorithy.

I told you: Please use reliable English sources with scientific value. Thank you!--B@xter⁹ 07:31, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

i) we smth told earlier, but i wanna write here. petrovic = son of slovakized serb and slovak muther (maria hruzova), ethnicity slovak. In Sabinov according to the magyarized 1910 census the town had 3288 inhabitants: 1640 Slovaks, 1168 Hungarians, 341 Germans and 120 Romanians. So It was ETHNIC SLOVAK TOWN. 1798 almost CLEAN slovak town with 2600 Slovaks, name was Sabinow. It was magyarized my dear friend. About Spisska Nova Ves in your language: 1910-ben 10 525 lakosából 5103 szlovák, 3494 magyar és 1786 német volt. Kosztka is SLOVAK word coz small bone in polish is dol and in czech kustka. So he had SLOVAK SURNAME and SLOVAK ETHNICAL BACKGROUND. Upper Hungary was regional name for teritory of present Slovakia, in slovak language its still Horniaky (Upperland for Slovakia) and Dolniaky (Downland for Hungary). Like felvidek and delvidek. For me if its something connected with Upper Hungary its connected with present Slovakia and with history of Hungarian Kingdom. His nationality can be Hungarian like in the case of lot of ethnical Slovaks in Hungarian Kingdom and in present Hungary (18000 slovaks by nationality vs 40 000 by ethnicity). Nationality is artificial, person can chose, can sonsider. Ethnicity you can not chose. Borders of Slovakia was lay out in 1918. We were administrative division in Czecho-Slovakia. Do you think our history starts in 1993? I understand you, believe me its reason why I never told that he is not Hungarian painter. I can see thing from your point of view. But I see, that Hungarians dont want see common history of Slovaks and Hungarians. Look from my side: he lived multiethnical country - in ethnical slovak area and present day slovakia, guy lived big part of his life in ethnicaly slovak towns, visited slovak school - he could chose german or hungarian, his surname is slovak, i like his paintings, i never told he is not hungarian painter. Why cannot you accept that he has slovak origin? His muther was Franciska Heiczelmajer but you did not write "de Daroc" (it was almost clean slovak village Sarisske Dravce). I think I gave you good proofs or something for thinking... PS: Page is not fascist its patriotic, JOBBIK and maybe FIDESZ are more close to fascizm then this people (Samofi (talk) 00:28, 24 April 2010 (UTC))

i) The ethnicity of Petőfi is disputed. Some scholars say he was Serb, others say he was Slovak. Btw, this is not the right place to discuss this. ii) Slovakia (not the Slovak nation) exists only from 1993. That is a fact. iii) "he had SLOVAK SURNAME and SLOVAK ETHNICAL BACKGROUND", "Why cannot you accept that he has slovak origin?" His ethnicity is a redundant information, however I added a reliable English source to prove that his ancestors were Polish nobles, and not Slovaks. (Valentiner, Wilhelm Reinhold (1965). The Art quarterly. Vol. 28. Detroit Institute of Arts. p. 247. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)) Try to accept this fact. Please note that he lived under the name Csontváry-Kosztka and not only Kosztka. Furthermore, his surname proves nothing, as Pavol Országh Hviezdoslav (Országh means country in Hungarian) was ethnically Slovak. iv) "guy lived big part of his life in ethnicaly slovak towns, visited slovak school - he could chose german or hungarian, his surname is slovak" 1) The towns of the KOH had mixed (mostly German-Hungarian) population, so this does not prove anything. 2) He also learned in a Hungarian school when he visited his relatives in Alföld. v) "Page is not fascist its patriotic, JOBBIK and maybe FIDESZ are more close to fascizm" Your "reliabel" source admires fascist leader Jozef Tiso... FIDESz is a centre-right political party, member of the European People's Party, and not fascist. Or you think that the members of the European People's Party, the largest group in the European Parliament are fascist?--B@xter⁹ 08:53, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

He was born as Kosztka [1] and later started to use his second surname "Csontváry" what is the translation of his Slovak surname to Hungarian with meaning "bone [2][3]". How can you explain the ethnical change of Sabinov when in 1798 it was almost pure slovak town with 2600 slovaks and in 1910 there was 1640 Slovaks, 1168 Hungarians, 341 Germans and 120 Romanians? They were magyarized, but ethnic origin was slovak. What was surname of his polish ancestor? Iam sure that Kosztka not.

He was born as Kosztka and not as Kôstka (i.e. not under a Slovak name). I will tell you again (5th time): read wikipedia's guideline including how to cite sources. An online translator is not a reliable published source. Please add a reliable source which proves your claims. (Please note: "Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published sources.", Reliable sources: "published materials with a reliable publication process; they may be authors who are regarded as authoritative in relation to the subject in question; or they may be both.", "Sources should directly support the information as it is presented in an article, and should be appropriate to the claims made.") --B@xter⁹ 13:58, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Kosztka is transcription of Slovak form Kostka to Magyar language: "sz" its "s". He was firstly in Slovak school and he went to learn Magyar better to his relatives in Alfold. Its facts, so connexion with Slovak culture there was. He painted Tatras, Tatras are in Slovakia, some of his paintings are in Tatra galery. Big part of his life he lived in ethnic Slovak area, so his production is connected with present Slovakia. Hawk :) (Samofi (talk) 15:47, 29 April 2010 (UTC))

i) He was born as Kosztka (i.e. under magyarized name), but as I told you earlier, his name proves nothing. ii)He painted Hungarian landscapes, the Tatras form part of Slovakia only from 1993. ;)--B@xter⁹ 16:09, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

OK, I agree, he was born as Kosztka (under magyarized Slovak surname). But surname = origin. Statisticaly: in Sabinov lived 2600 Slovaks, almost all people (1798). In 1910 there was 1640 Slovaks and 1168 Magyars. Town was magyarized, like almost all towns in Upper Hungary. People with originaly slovak surnames magyarized and after 1918 re-slovakized. He was in Slovak school - so his mother language was Slovak, its part of sociolinguistic identity and its part of ethnicity. Its facts, he (his parents) could chose german or hungarian school in town. Why Hungarian went teach better Hungarian to Alfold? :) What is surname of his polish ancestors? You cited book and did not give proof... Iam sure Kosztka no. For me he was Hungarian painter with Hungarian nationality, slovak ethnicity or origin and he had polish ancestors. Tatras were part of Slovakia, there lived mostly Slovak people. Before the Hungarian Kingdom there was Nitrava and to the 12th century it was Nitrava politicaly separated part of Hungarian Kingdom. Ethnogenesis of Slovaks was in 10-11th century (because they were separated from other Slavs in Hungary, thank you Magyars that we could make one state together and create our ethnicity :)) so they were at least 100 years in politicaly separated part of Hungary (in Nitra principality). Nitra principality has continuity (archeological research - old slavic settlements continued), after the death of Svatopluk II and Mojmir II, the duke of Nitra principality was Lehel, he was Magyar, but it means nothing, Family of Anjou was originaly from France. So it was Slavic, later Slovak principality under Magyar dukes and princes, later as part of Hungarian Kingdom. For example, see part of Hungarian kingdom joined to Czechia - Moravian Slovakia. Slovácko - people Slováci. Slovakia (Slovensko) - people Slováci. So ethnogenesis was in the time of Nitra principality. About name of your country.. Hungar(d)ia [[4]] was the name of the area of later Hungaria, derived from Huns, same like Bohemia (old Czechia), derived from the Celtic tribe of Boiis (Bohemia = home of Boiis) [[5]]. Like changed Bohemia to Czechia after 1918, it should be changed Hungaria to Magyaria, and Hungarians to Magyars, coz there was political nationality and Magyars steal common personalities from that time. "Beohemian people" were people from Bohemia - Germans, Czechs etc. Hungarian people were people from Hungaria - Magyars, Slovaks, Germans, Croats, Jews etc. Its fact. In Slovak newspapers from 1909 (in Siracky 1980), there was written about Slovak speaking people in Bakony forrest and they considered themselves as Uhri (in english Hungarians, in hungarian Magyars). But they were not able to speak Magyar (Hungarian) language, so they were different than Magyars. Now in english see paradox of these people: "We are Hungarians (Uhri), but we dont speak Hungarian (Magyar) and we are different than Hugarians (Magyars)". Its not discussion here only about Koszka but about global understanding of identity in the Hungarian Kingdom. Lot of people from Hungary lives from history, same like Greeks and look their economy... And "new" countries (in your opinion) such Slovakia, have to pay for them (for Hungary to MMF and for Greece we will pay too...) Hungary should try to improve relations with neighbours, improve economy, make better minority politics (look assimilation of minorities - bad education, no churches; serial killing of Roma people...) and Hungary should accept that history of Hungarian kingdom was history of Slovaks, Ruthenians, Germans, Croats etc. and we a both should make compromises and cooperate about history coz we have more and more informations and in the time we can see things differently and interpretate differently see Hermeneutics. Maybe you are good in languages and good encyclopedist (it wikipedia needs) but you should have more theoretical knowledge. ;) (Samofi (talk) 21:20, 5 May 2010 (UTC)) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.128.181.9 (talk)

I have proof that Kosztka was common Slovak surname in north-eastern part of Hungarian Kingdom (area of Kosztka´s origin), I have genealogical register: slovakpride.homestead.com/Names_I_L_2007.xls So his Slovak origin is undisputable (Samofi (talk) 17:31, 7 May 2010 (UTC))

As I said, his name proves nothing. His Polish background is well referenced. Read Valentiner, Wilhelm Reinhold (1965). The Art quarterly. Vol. 28. Detroit Institute of Arts. p. 247. Tivadar Kosztka — he was a descendant of old Polish aristocracy who settled in Hungary {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help) His polish origin is undisputable--B@xter⁹ 18:02, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Btw, that site "We would like to include your surnames from Slovakia" collects Surnames from present day Slovakia, and not names of Slovak origin. "Kocsis", "Illyés", "Johnson", Henderhot or Hardwick do not sound very Slovak to me...--B@xter⁹ 18:28, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

I never disagreed he was of Polish origin. But I have asked for a few times what was the surname of his polish ancestros, when did came to Hungarian Kingdom? Kosztka is Slovak surname, its possible that he was slovakized, its scientifically proved that slavic people assimilate very fast espetialy in different slavic language area like Sabinov was (1798 almost clean Slovak town). And he lived in in slovak ethnic area, visited slovak elementary school and went to learn hungarian to Alfold. So conection with slovak ethnicity its here. Kocsis is old Slovak-Hungarian surname same like Kovacs. Kovacs is of slavic origin and Kocsis (coachman) is of magyar language origin, but a both surnames are adapted for a long time in lingustic of both nations http://translate.google.com/#en%7Csk%7Ccoachman. Kosztka admited Hungarian TRANSLATION of his Slovak surname - only last 19 years of his life. Its undisputable his connection with Slovak culture. --Samofi (talk) 20:33, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

History of Csontvary's paintings

In 1973 the Csontvary Kosztka Tivadar Museum was established in Pecs on the basis of Gerloczy Gedeon's collection. The following is a personal experience and my recollections of some 50 years old conversations.

In the early 1960's I received a recommendation to visit in Budapest Mr. Gerloczy Gedeon. I visited him in his apartment in Galamb utca. All the wall space of his home was occupied by Csontvary's paintings. Mr. Gerloczy Gedeon recounted me how he came into the possession of these works. In the early 1900's his family sent him to study abroad. I recall that he went to Viena to study engineering. However, the arts became his major interest and passion and when upon the 1919 Revolution he returned to Budapest this was the fire in his heart. How he came to know Csontvary's work is lost for me. What is fact though is that upon Csontvary's death in 1919, his works were to be sold by his family and Gerloczy Gedeon knew this. At the time he sought out the advice of estimed art critics who unanimously derieded Csontvary's oeuvre and advised Gerloczy not to touch it. Fortunately, his passion was such that he used all the money he could gather from all possible sources and purchased as many of the paintings as he could. One of his remarkable comments was that the large canvasses were to be sold to a Gipsy kumpania who would have found their size most useful to fully cover their roulottes. Gerloczy Gedeon succeeded to buy himself these, or some of these, large paintings. Further, Mr. Gerloczy Gedeon recounted his long struggle, unsuccessful yet at the time, to create a museum for these works and how on an occasion he was rebuffed by a major defender of Socialist Realism who ridiculed the painter for his "inability" to paint a horse: only three of its legs were visible!

69.86.179.229 (talk) 03:06, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

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