Talk:Turkoman horse

Comments

If this is an extinct breed shouldn't descriptions be in the past tense in the first section? Suitsme 06:38, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Grammatical improvements always welcome. I suppose there is some debate if the Turkoman is extinct, some claim it's the same breed as the Akhal-Teke. Do a little research into that question, and then if you want to make the language consistent, as long as the structure makes grammatical sense, go for it. Montanabw 00:13, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

It is wrong to say the extinct Turkoman breed is from "Turkmenistan". Turkmenistan is a newly created country and the old Turk horse has to be attributed to all Turkic people of the steppes. It would be more correct to say ".. a breed from the steppes of Central Asia". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.198.181.130 (talk) 15:58, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

One could perhaps say that the Turkmen breed comes from the historical region of Turkestan, which includes all Turkic people of the steppes. Minoo (talk) 23:33, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

Arabian nights

Tthe article is perhaps easier to understand now, but it lost much of its magical beduin narrative charm, typical for this hors breeds history. I wish that this could be included in some way in the article:

The Turkoman and the Arabian compared

Perhaps this is a good time and place to consider the differences which existed at that time between the "Arabian" and the "Turkoman/Turanian" and understand how the two came to be confused.

The Turkoman and the Arabian horse, in their purest old forms, were very like one another in some ways and very different in others. Both had excellent speed and stamina. Both had extremely fine coats and delicate skin, unlike other horse breeds found in Europe. They both had large eyes, wide foreheads and tapering muzzles. They both came from very arid environments. Here, however, the similarities between the Turkoman of Central Asia and the Nejdi Arabian end, and the horses begin to diverge to suit their environments and the fighting styles of their breeders.

Among the the main differences, due to environmental influences are these:

Hooves

The Turkoman had small hooves, and the old Nedji Arabian had fairly large hooves for its size. This was an adaptation to the steppes of the Central Asia, wich consisted of a hard, rocky ground, covered with coarse sand, more like fine gravel and of stiff, parched vegetation. A smaller hoof was needed here to be able to manage the embedded rocks and sticky bushes.

In the Central Arabian desert there is deep sand. Rocks are often not embedded in the ground and can be moved by a passing hoof. A larger hoof is needed here to cope with this type of terrain.

Size

The spine of the Turkoman, the Tekke Turkoman (and today in many cases the Akhal-Teke) in particular, is much longer than that of the Arabian. The reason for this may likely to be that when riding long distances, the Turkoman was expected to trot, and the Arabian was not. Indeed, a fluid trot may not have come naturally to the old Arabian at all, as trotting on any horse over heavy sand is extremely tiring and difficult for the horse. In general, one will notice that the more difficult the terrain, the shorter-backed will a "native" type of horse be. Some horses will also show a tendency to substitute the pace or a single-foot gait for the trot, to avoid the forging and striking that short back or too long-legged horses tends to produce.

The Turkoman was taller than the desert-bred Arabian. This, again, may have to do with the comparative stability of footing which the Turkoman often enjoyed. Height would put Arabians in the desert at disadvantage, as the higher the center of gravity is over footing of any kind, the more energy is required to maintain it in balance. An insecure, shifting footing would take more energy. A taller horse under the same circumstances is likely to tire sooner than a shorter one.

In other words, the Turkoman is ideally suited for noticing, outrunning and outlasting predators, and moving towards and from the water source on the Central Asian Steppes. The Arabian is ideally suited for noticing, outrunning and outlasting predators, and moving and moving towards and from the water source in the Central Arabian Desert.

Use

Among the differences which are probably due to selective breeding, for use suitability are these:

The Turkoman was often nearly mane-less. Considering that it was originally used as a "moving platform" for mounted archers, this should not be all that surprising. A flowing mane would greatly interfere with the drawing of a bow. Certainly one could braid a mane in preparation for a fight, but in this case the warrior would have to know in advance that the fight was coming, which wasn't always the case. The Arabs, when they fought on horseback, used a very long lance or a short sword, with which a long mane was less likely to interfere or become entangled.

The Arabian carries its tail high when galloping, and higher than most when walking or trotting. The Turkoman runs with its tail streaming behind, where it does not interfere with the drawing of the bow when taking the famous Parthian Shot.

In other words, the Turkoman was the ideal horse for mounted archers who shot on the run, and the Arabian is the perfect horse for lancers and swordsmen.

Among the differences which may be due, to both environmental and breeding influences -- or unknown influences, are these:

The Turkoman horse, in all its form, had a coat which glows with a metallic sheen. Not all horses in a population will show this trait, and some glow more than others, but as a whole, a glowing coat is a hallmark of the breed. This is due to a change in the structure of the individual hair. Many theories have been formulated to explain why the Turkoman horses hair shines, but none explain why the Turkoman horses in particular benefit from this genetic difference and why other horses would not.

The Turkoman horse is narrower in the body than the Arabian, or indeed than any other breed of horse. This helps it to dissipate heat quickly, but it is also a great aid in twisting and turning in the saddle, which would be invaluable to mounted archers who need to shoot in any direction, as opposed to lancers who need a firm footing from which to thrust a lance. Lance-throwing from horseback would be far easier on an Arabian horse shaped wider in the body would also help with making the sharp turns that close-fighting requires.

In other words, the Turkoman was the ideal horse for the Turkmen, and the Arabian was the ideal horse for the Arabs.

History

So how did this confusion over which horse was which arise? There were probably several contributing factors.

One of them was that when the first Oriental horses were imported to England, it simply didn't matter what kind of horse it was, as long it was elegant and fast and could race.

Another reason comes from the Islam. Throughout the Islamic world in previous times, it was commonplace for Arabs to "adopt converts into the tribe," so to speak, especially if they were wealthy and/or in positions of power. A Turk who converted to Islam was taught Arabic and called an "Arab" by the Arabs. The Turks, being nomads, were generally open to new ideas from all over the place; many who were previously Buddhist or Zoroastrians embraced Islam and thus became nominally "Arabs." Thus their horses might have gotten that appellation by association. All this may have contributed to the fact that in England, as Sidney tells us, "Every Oriental horse -- Turk, Barb or Egyptian bred -- is called an Arab in this country."

Bluee Mountain (talk) 21:39, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Unsourced material removed. Best Minoo (talk) 15:51, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Bedouin or whatever charm

LOL! The narrative was perhaps charming, but probably a direct copy and paste from somewhere and if not a copyvio then just OR or maybe even POV mythos. (the bit about deep sand is nonsense, central Arabia has plenty of hard terrain and the bit about tails and use of a bow sounds like something out of Just So Stories; even a high-carried tail won't interfere with a bow!). I have no problem leaving it parked here for future reference, though. Who knows, maybe someday a source will appear and excerpts can go back in. Montanabw^(talk) 23:51, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Oh, and I DID keep some of it, just rearranged and toned down a bit. This whole article is largely unsourced, eventually that will need to be fixed. Montanabw^(talk) 23:53, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't think you are listening and trying to understand what other editors want to say. A high-carried tail would indeed interfere with a bow, if the wind blows against the archer. And nomadic people do have a special way expressing themselwes. The part I meant is spoken language, not written. I doubt that it was copied, if from a book,in that case it would have been written in a much better English. Bluee Mountain (talk) 09:16, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

No, I understand perfectly. It is romanticized and unsourced content, and as such not really suitable for wikipedia, that's all. Romantic writing is fine, just not here. And the unsourced content is right up there with the Turkmenistan government claiming that Bucephalus was a Turkoman horse (while about 10 other breeds claim him too...sigh...) And no, there is no way tail carriage is significant enough to effect the wind catching the "skirt" of that tail and thus get in the way of a mounted rider. (Length of tail itself poses possible problems, which is why they tie up the tails of many harness horses, Polo horses during competition and Haute Ecole animals during certain airs above the ground) Arabians have only a slight elevation of their tails at a standstill and though they carry their tails up somewhat when in motion, but not to the extent that they could ever interfere with a mounted rider -- they don't blow against the wind. However romantic, it just violates the laws of physics. Note image of racing Arabians here. Likewise, someone once wrote in the Arabian article that their high-carried tail would catch the cloak of a bedouin if it fell off in battle, which is an equally cute, but silly and romanticized comment that defies the known laws of physics! (Trust me, I have taken off my coat in the saddle enough times and had it fly off the back of the horse to PROVE that one is hooey! LOL!) Montanabw^(talk) 21:20, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Unsourced material removed. Best Minoo (talk) 15:51, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Not Extinct - Major Issue

Some of the content on this page is due to be reconsidered & refined based on the new high-quality DNA science in this paper: "Y Chromosome Uncovers the Recent Oriental Origin of Modern Stallions"[1]

"To identify the origin of Tb, we extended our samples by including the Akhal-Teke, the remnant of the Turkoman horse [19, 45], and found that Tb is the most frequent HT among 78 Akhal-Teke males (81%, Figure 4B). Thus, Tb is likely of Turkoman origin and spread widely by English Thoroughbred stallions. Additionally, the presence of Tb in many European breeds with no documented influence of English Thoroughbred stallions shows the influence of Turkoman stallions, independent of the English Thoroughbred. This finding corresponds to the geopolitical development of the region [22]."

Greenineugene (talk) 01:18, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

Unsourced material removed. Best Minoo (talk) 15:53, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

More new research clarifies Turk/Arabian/Akhal-Teke relationships

Article should be updated based on new peer-reviewed research adding to the strong evidence that the Akhal-Teke is indeed the continuation of the Turkoman, and that these, not the Arabian, are the breed of foundation stallions of the modern Thoroughbred.

“Contrary to popular belief, we could detect no significant genomic contribution of the Arabian breed to the Thoroughbred racehorse, including Y chromosome ancestry.”

“Recently... an analysis of horse Y chromosome haplotypes has indicated that the Y haplotype of the “Darley Arabian” actually originated from the Turkoman[/Akhal-Teke] horse, an ancient breed from the Middle East and Central Asia that is... also an “Oriental” type breed.”

“Five of the race-use [Arabian] horses carried the Tb-oB1* haplogroup attributed to the “Byerley Turk” foundation sire of the Thoroughbred breed. Tb-oB1* is found within a variety of breeds and lineages, including the Turkomen[/Akhal-Teke]. Therefore, these five horses may carry Y chromosomes derived from ancestors common to both racing Arabians and the Thoroughbred breed.”

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-66232-1 Greenineugene (talk) 16:48, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

See my reply to this post at Talk:Arabian horse. It's complicated. Montanabw^(talk) 02:47, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

No clear evidence of extinction available

When the article was created on January 19, 2005 from an IP (68.221.54.138) it was claimed that the breed was extinct, with no evidence to support this. ‎‎It is unclear if there is a breed registry for the Turkmen or if it is a regional breed without registry. This should be discussed in the article. Perhaps the homepages of Ministry of Cultural Heritage, Tourism and Handicrafts or Agriculture Jihad could help clarify this. (Unfortunately I do not speak Farsi.) In Iran, where people fled after the Russian Revolution[2], there are still horses called "Trukomans":

• This video of AP shows a horse race with "Turkoman" horses in Gonbad-e Kavus, 2014, a city which is regarded as Iran's equestrian capital.
• This video is released by the Ministry of Cultural Heritage, Tourism and Handicrafts in Iran. The voiceover and the video title talk about Trurkoman, but the video description calls the Turkoman extinct. So it's not clear what is shown in this video.
• This video shows a "Turkoman" at 9:10 in Iran at the Jargalan Turkman Stud.
• According to the autor this video shows the Pure Bred Iranian Turkoman stallion Souson in Jargalan Province, NE Iran 1999.
• This video 2009 claims to show Turkoman horses in Iran.
• The FAO lists an Iranian horse breed called Turkmen, which is only bred in Iran. According FAO in 2003 there were between 300 - 400 animals. In 2023 there were 2000-5000 animals. The population is at risk.

The English Wikipedia claimed since 2005 that the Tukomans have been extinct. That's why there are now hundreds of websites all over the world repeating this story without any evidence. Greenineugene mentioned this issue before.

I removed the claim of extinction and unsourced material. I included the FAO recognized Turkoman breed in Iran. If this is not the "real" Turkoman, then please correct the article and provide reliable evidence. Minoo (talk) 15:13, 22 February 2024 (UTC)