Talk:Ultrajectine

Use of Catholic sources

Can I import a passage from the Catholic Encyclopedia verbatim for reference? 61.246.204.115 14:18, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Probably. See Wikipedia:Using Catholic Encyclopedia material for information on doing so. Just be sure to cite it, using Wikipedia:Citation templates. --Elkman 15:17, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Important: It might be useful to watch that the sources being used are objective, or at least, get a balance between information taken from those who are pro-Old Catholic, and those who are anti-Old Catholic... I notice an SSPX article and a reference to the Catholic Encyclopedia, and a mention of the ORCCNA website. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.35.233.203 (talk) 02:20, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Important: Besides making this an article on the "secondary", "tertiary", "founders" of Ultrajectine Catholic tradition, we should put more emphasis on the ideas of the Ultrajectine tradition and how they differ from those of Roman Catholics. To speak of a moment and ignore it's fundamental ideas is vain, and perhaps even, biased. The theology and Ultrajectine understanding of Catholicism needs to be explained here to understand then the Old Catholic movement. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.173.187.76 (talk) 22:39, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

I concur with this opinion. This article is about a Catholic heresy and does not respect that this movement is a human one. Perhaps it would be best to merge this and the various articles on the Old Catholic Churches into one large one which will both portray OCC theological views along with Roman Catholic views. I can envision the structure as such: a primary article about the Union of Utrect, including RC views on the schismatic aspects of the OCC, along with a sort of comparison surrounding issues of papal authority and other doctrinal differences. As it stands, all articles in this matter are slanted one way or the other, and there is much guidance to be taken from the articles about divergences in Islam when it comes to neutrality. Stew312856 (talk) 01:32, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

I think Ultrajectine should be more focused and reduced by moving content to other articles. I think that the article now is an amalgamation of some related concepts:

• 16th century suppression of the Ultrajectine Archdiocese during the Protestant Reformation, i.e., that administrative division called the archdiocese officially ended (which is not directly mentioned in this article)
• 17th century influence of Jansenist theology in the region propagated by French refugees
• 18th century Utrecht, or Ultrajectine, schism, within the Vicariate Apostolic of Batavia which was the mission territory that replaced the suppressed diocese, that resulted in the "Roman Catholic Church of the Old Episcopal Clergy" (Rooms-Katholieke Kerk der Oud-Bisschoppelijke Clerezie) (OBC)
• 18th century rejection of much Jansenist theology by the OBC at the 1763 Council of Utrecht (which is not directly mentioned in this article)
• 19th century Kulturkampf Old Catholic churches
• 19th century Union of Utrecht member churches
• 19th century figure – Vilatte – ordained through a 19th century Kulturkampf Old Catholic church for the Protestant Episcopal Church of the United States of America and later claimed to be an Old Catholic bishop without ever being consecrated by Old Catholic bishops
• 20th century figure – Mathew – apostate Latin Church priest consecrated for a new but fictitious Old Catholic church by Union of Utrecht bishops based on a fraudulent election that eventually resulted in his election/consecration being declared null-and-void by the Union of Utrecht member churches

The article should not be about Old Catholic churches in general but about the term Ultrajectine. —BoBoMisiu (talk) 16:42, 1 November 2014 (UTC)

Dutch sources

Which Dutch written sources use the term Ultrajectine? Or else: how is this subject called in Dutch? Sonty567 (talk) 19:21, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Ultrajectine is a descriptor for one who originates in Utrecht, Holland, akin to calling one who originates from New York a New Yorker. The word itself is derived from either Latin or Dutch, I'm not certain of etymology.Stew312856 (talk) 02:35, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Neutrality??

Someone placed a neutrality template in the article. Of course it is not neutral, it is from Encyclopedia Catholica 1913! The text has to be reworded so that "(alleged)" and other POV-inlines are removed. The original text happily seems to confuse apostolic succession with "Roman Pontiff supremacy". Such confusions should also be disconfused. ... said: Rursus (^mbork³) 09:04, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Fishy

Just made a bunch of reformulations to remove some serious neutrality issues, but the story doesn't have much in common with the story in Old Catholic Church of the Netherlands which should be about the same topic. The reasons for behaviors are quite differing: this article essentially claims that "sneaky jansenites" fell into hiding, and "infiltrated" the catholic laity, etc. etc., while the other claims that "the violent reformation (anabaptists and calvinists)" forced the utrecht catholics into hiding, but the "papal authorities" trampled the true saviors of the catholic laity down in its rigidity, etc. etc.. Somehow I think there's something fishy about both articles, and that NPOV is very very hard to achieve. ... said: Rursus (^mbork³) 22:49, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

This article is riddled with Roman Catholic false claims. For example, that Anglicans do not uphold Catholic doctrines. Nonsense. There might be Roman Catholic doctrines that Anglicans do not uphold, but Roman Catholicism is not the same as the Catholic Church, even though many Roman Catholics are swayed in ignorance by the preposterous naming by Roman Catholics of the Roman Catholic Church as "Catholic Church". --jrl 10:47, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

jrl, historically, Protestants did "not uphold Catholic doctrines" and historical anti-Catholicism in the United Kingdom is well documented. There really was an English Reformation, there really was an English Reformation Parliament and Acts of Supremacy were legislated, there really was a dissolution of the Monasteries and submission of the Clergy, there really was a legal thirty-nine Articles of Religion requirement, there really was King Edward VI's Act of Uniformity 1552 which required Calvinist type services, there was a Reformed theology Puritan movement within the Church of England and Lambeth Articles were discussed. There still is, among other things, a Supreme Governor of the Church of England and low church Anglicans. Article One of the 1536 Ten Articles states that, they must "condemn all those opinions [...] condemned [...] in the council of Nice, Constantinople, Ephesus, and Chalcedon, and all other since that time in any point consonant to the same." It did not even explicitly include the first seven Ecumenical Councils and the Protestantism article (this version) states:

A "programme of coherent Protestant reform" was implemented after his [King Henry VIII] death by the Privy Council, its chief component being Cranmer's two Books of Common Prayer of 1549 and 1552.

Stating which groups the Vatican does not consider as Catholic is just that: a statement about Catholicity from the Vatican. It is authoritative for members of the Church, which means, it is authoritative for about half of all Christians on Earth. Anti-Catholic polemics such as "many Roman Catholics are swayed in ignorance by the preposterous naming by Roman Catholics of the Roman Catholic Church as 'Catholic Church'" is divisive by implying that this Church is, in some way, not Catholic. Nevertheless, I don't think that the term Ultrajectine implies that the source Church from which it separated is not Catholic while the schism is Catholic.

—BoBoMisiu (talk) 16:42, 1 November 2014 (UTC)

the Ultramontane not Roman Catholic bias

The entry has a bias against Old Catholicism. The bias might be termed Ultramontane rather than Roman Catholic. Some Roman Catholics (it is impossible to know what proportion) would take issue with aspects of the condemnation of Old Catholicism and its origins and development, and would argue that the Ultramontanism evident in the entry's condemnations is a perversion of Catholicism, and the Old Catholics of the eighteenth (Dutch) and ninteenth (mainly German-speaking)centuries were attempting to uphold the ancient Catholic faith against the novel spirit of Ultramontanism in late-nineteenth century Catholicism. The Catholic Church of the twentieth century emphasised a Church which was hierarchical but at the same time collegial; papal with supremity but with the Pope as the Head of the Episcopal College - not a separate authority exercising its power without reference to the tradition of the Church and the authority of the college of bishops. According to this Roman Catholic perspective the Ultramontanism of late-nineteenth century Catholicism is out of kilter with ancient Catholic tradition, and the thinking of Dollinger and the "Old Catholics" is entirely in keeping with this ancient tradition. In other words, the apotheosis of Ultramontanism in the Catholic Church of the late nineteenth century was the grave error of the time (even if it was championed by the Pope of the day Pius IX and the Cardinal Archbishop of Westminster Manning), and their error was condemned by the great minds of the Church including Dollinger. (the "is" in the St Vincent of Lerins quotation refered to by earlier entries is a typo!). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.43.191.163 (talk) 02:25, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

After a about a week of research in English, I came to the conclusion that "Ultrajectine" is probably not a separate concept. The word is not found in OED. Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL, searches do not provide sources that identify "Ultrajectine" as a unique concept. Google web search results show it is used by what I would term as autonomous priests, who do not seem to be part of organized religion, or even the Old Catholic Church of the Netherlands that the origin section of this article is about. There may be reliable sources in other languages but not in English. So I removed {{under construction}}, added {{Section OR}} and {{Refimprove section}} hatnotes, and other markup. The only source listed in the article that discusses "Ultrajectine" (Archive index at the Wayback Machine) informs that their beliefs include:

• a "many-branched" tree model
• "Ultramontane-the papal-curial tradition [...] is not the sole tradition [...] alternate tradition is 'Ultrajectinism'."
• "Old Catholicism springs from Ultrajectinism in the way that curial Catholicism does from Ultramontanism."
• "differ in their interpretation of what the term 'Catholic' means, and what it means to be a Catholic."
• "do not define ourselves in relation to [...] Ultramontane Catholicity."
• "we [...] felt differently about [...] the 'proliferation of dogma' brought about by the Ultramontane tendency to 'dogmatize doctrine'."
• "a Catholic must believe [...] dogma, he may believe [...] doctrine [...] rejection of a [...] doctrine does not abrogate his Catholicity, so long as he remains dogmatically sound."
• "principle of dogmatic minimalism and attitude of doctrinal relativism [...] enunciated [...] in [...] the Vincentian Canon."
• "new doctrines may be perennial [...] 'new dogma' [...] is an inherent contradiction."
• "a dogma is essential to Catholic identity"
• "papal infallibility [...] was one 'dogmatic' declaration that [...] Ultrajectines found particularly offensive [...] It violates several of our principles [...] One of them has to do with maintaining the distinction between doctrinal and juridical matters."
• "Erasmus was [...] most vocal Ultrajectine"
• "the poster boy for Christian humanism, Erasmus was [...] a priest of the diocese of Utrecht"
• "Erasmus was representative of the characteristic Ultrajectine attitude."
• Erasmus "took issue with [...] theological rationale for clerical celibacy when there, in fact, was none."
• Erasmus "was appalled when he heard that in one diocese, a young priest had been condemned, tortured, and executed for marrying his mistress, whereas if he had maintained her as a concubine, there would have been no consequence."
• Erasmus "criticized forced marriage, [...] "marital indissolubility", and refusal of divorce in any circumstance as vehicles for the enslavement of women."
• Erasmus was "scandalized by the militant papacy with its expansionist policy and will-to-power."
• Erasmus "viewed these tendencies as a distortion of the role that the papacy had historically occupied."
• Erasmus "maintained that the 'government' of the Church was, by nature, collegial and conciliar: the pope acting in union with the bishops, not the other way around."
• "None of these Erasmian ideas, clearly elaborated in the fifteeenth century as the platform of the Catholic Reformation (a.k.a. the "Ultrajectine" position) were innovations. They were grounded firmly in scripture and tradition."
• "the magisterium of the Church [...] has no divine right to control thought or knowledge, to suppress them, or to redefine them contrary to evident fact."
• contraception "in keeping with our principles and tradition, [...] is an open question".
• "standards and [...] principles [...] include dogmatic essentialism, doctrinal relativism, [...] loyalty to scripture and tradition, openness to knowledge and human experience, and absolute Christo-centrism."
• believe "Ultrajectine tradition is the more 'authentic' of the two branches of western Catholicism [...] unencumbered by [...] accretions of Ultramontanist medievalism."

Nevertheless, Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL yields no usable results. From what I read on the internet, I think it seems reasonable to say that "Ultrajectine" is just used within several late 20th and 21st century groups to describe "the fifteeenth century [...] platform of the Catholic Reformation (a.k.a. the "Ultrajectine" position)". —BoBoMisiu (talk) 17:13, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

Some parts of the article are still POV

I noticed that the POV flavor of the Catholic Encyclopedia still sticks through in some parts of the article.198.151.130.41 (talk) 23:22, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

That Vincent quote

Quoting the article:

they often quote St. Vincent of Lerins, a Church Father recognized by Rome, saying: "We Catholics must ever hold fast that which is has been believed everywhere, always, and by all."

I wonder if the quotation of St. Vincent is missing a word, or possibly has had a word added by mistake.

Eg., "We Catholics must ever hold fast that that which is has been believed everywhere, always, and by all."

OR

"We Catholics must ever hold fast that which has been believed everywhere, always, and by all."

—Wanderer57 (talk) 16:24, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Response: the quotation is correct...Look it up if you like, but you can't delete what Ultrajectine Catholics believe because you don't like it. It is appropriate to the Wikipedia entry on Ultrajectinism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.35.233.203 (talk) 18:35, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure that he doesn't mean the quote should be removed as "wrong" or whatever, but that there's a grammatical error which is unlikely to be original. "...that which is has..." just doesn't sound right to me. Most likely the "is" is a typo, I would say. 62.74.229.177 (talk) 18:13, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

The passage in the article in Christian Classics Ethereal Library on Sulpitius Severus, Vincent of Lerins, John Cassian reads "With regard to antiquity, that interpretation must be held to which has been handed down from the earliest times; with regard to universality, that which has always been held, if not by all, at least by the most part, in preference to that which has been held only by a few". —Ian S (talk) 10:47, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Could we standardise the text? I suggest: «all possible care must be taken, that we hold that faith which has been believed everywhere, always, by all.» --Clifford Mill (talk) 18:40, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

The Commonitory article is about the source of this quote. It has good references and includes this translation:

Moreover, in the Catholic Church itself, all possible care must be taken, that we hold that faith which has been believed everywhere, always, by all.

Using Vincent's quote is not a unique Ultrajectine feature as seems to be implied by the lead paragraph. For example, it is included in the Latin Church's Rites of Ordination of a Bishop, of Priests, and of Deacons where a bishop-elect is "questioned in the presence of the people on his resolve to uphold the faith" and one of the promises made by the bishop-elect is to "resolve to guard the deposit of faith, entire and incorrupt, as handed down by the Apostles and preserved by the Church everywhere and at all times" (n. 40). —BoBoMisiu (talk) 16:42, 1 November 2014 (UTC)

References

What does this mean?

What does "its" mean in "Utrecht was the fortified former Roman limes castellum of Traiectum, which was so named because of its possibility to cross the Rhine"? If this section means "Origin of name" perhaps it could read "The word 'Ultrajectine' is the adjective that comes from the name of the city Utrecht, namely, "of Utrecht". Utrecht is the Dutch form of the fortified former Roman limes castellum of Traiectum, which was so-named because it was at a crossing of the Rhine."--Richardson mcphillips (talk) 18:48, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

Traiectum (Utrecht) apparently was built at a river crossing location. There is a note in that article about some of the words used. That is all I know about it. —BoBoMisiu (talk) 19:58, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

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