Talk:Umar Israilov

Shortened "controversy" section, etc.

I have significantly shortened the section with the unwieldy name Controversy over "List of sentenced to death". The paragraphs I removed were about reporting on the Israilov killing, not about Israilov. That kind of "meta" writing — writing about people who write about what we're writing about here — is tedious to most readers of Wikipedia.

The longest paragraph was attributed to "Caucasian Knot, the independent human rights resource." I found a website by that name that reports on central Asian affairs, but I could not establish basic facts about the website. It seems to have been started very recently, and I am concerned that this article was being used to promote it. I used the site's contact form to email its webmaster, and will be willing to reconsider if more information becomes available. (If you know anything substantive about Caucasian Knot, please comment below.)

To be perfectly clear, I think the article (here) described as an interview with journalist C.J. Chivers is not authentic, as it portrays this British writer for the International Herald-Tribune and The New York Times communicating with his interviewer in broken English. There is no indication that the interview was conducted in Russian, in which case one would expect Chivers to have first approved of the version translated into English before its publication.

I am also concerned about the use of extended direct quotes translated from Russian sources. Frankly, this provides an opportunity for an editor with firm convictions about Israilov to use selective quoting and tendentious word choices in English to skew the meaning of a Russian source. Feelings about Israilov are strong. I will continue to remove any passages from this article that are not written from a neutral point of view. Note that this does not mean every rumor about Israilov must be given equal weight.

Finally, please do not erase the comments on this page, even if you made them yourself. — ℜob C. alias ᴀʟᴀʀoʙ 13:12, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

I made these additional changes to the article:

• I removed the subheadings. The article is not long enough to need them.
• I removed the long direct quotes from President Kadyrov's adviser (discussed before on a user talk page) and his press secretary.
• Weasel words like "official" are gone.
• I deleted the footnote citing Timur Aliyev's blog, as it merely quotes an earlier version of this article.
• The article no longer concludes with Kadyrov's spokesman's advice to journalists to "be more critical against disseminated rumours."
• Kurmakayev's statement about refugees seeking passports was too vague to be understood.
• Another Russian news article has been fully cited (not just linked to).

That's all. — ℜob C. alias ᴀʟᴀʀoʙ 13:46, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Ellol has reverted several of my changes, apparently on the grounds that he doesn't personally care for them. (Discussion on our talk pages is linked in next section.) I have placed a POV notice on the article, requested a peer review, and am hoping to avoid edit warring. — ℜob C. alias ᴀʟᴀʀoʙ 16:25, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Of course I care! But user Alarob has just removed most of my contribution, which are made in spirit and letter of Wikipedia policies! It's not my trouble, if an English journalist made claims which turned to be false later, as proven by independent human rights resource Caucasian Knot. ellol (talk) 17:30, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

I meant to suggest that you don't like the changes. (In English, "not to care for" something is a polite way of saying you don't like something.) Please see Wikipedia:I just don't like it. If you have a reasoned response to the concerns I've explained above, then please state it. — ℜob C. alias ᴀʟᴀʀoʙ 16:27, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Alarob, my description of the controversy is factually correct. What do you have to object that? Memorial -- Memorial, not Monument as you call it -- is indeed a reputable organization. Likewise, its project "Caucasian Knot" is a reputable resource. We can use it.

I don't get the point about the responses. In my opinion, it's interesting to show the official responses. But feel free to add different ones, if you feel like so. ellol (talk) 21:08, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Peer review request

I have asked for a peer review from WikiProject Biography. Some discussion relevant to this article is at User talk:Ellol, [User talk:Alarob#Umar Israilov], and [User talk:Alarob#Umar Israilov_2]. — ℜob C. alias ᴀʟᴀʀoʙ 16:58, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

The Biography project is socked in, apparently. Ellol's response to concerns expressed above has been to revert the article to the state it was in before I edited it. Instead of engaging in edit war with a determined campaigner, I have flagged areas of concern with the article. I regret that we can't do better than this. — ℜob C. alias ᴀʟᴀʀoʙ 19:26, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Alarob, I can't agree with verification flags for Aliev or Gudaev's comments -- they actually made those comments. ellol (talk) 19:50, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Whatever the grounds on which Kurmakayev made his confession to the Novaya Gazeta, the very confession can't be blamed unjustified without compromising the reputation of the Novaya Gazeta (like, do you mean they could divise or skew that confession? that would mean that the newspaper which is often treated as the top opposition press edition in Russia, did actually openly lie.) ellol (talk) 19:54, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

N.B. User:Ellol was deleted by an admin in November 2010. — ℜob C. alias ÀLAROB 23:36, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

removing POV tag with no active discussion per Template:POV

I've removed an old neutrality tag from this page that appears to have no active discussion per the instructions at Template:POV:

This template is not meant to be a permanent resident on any article. Remove this template whenever:

1. There is consensus on the talkpage or the NPOV Noticeboard that the issue has been resolved
2. It is not clear what the neutrality issue is, and no satisfactory explanation has been given
3. In the absence of any discussion, or if the discussion has become dormant.

Since there's no evidence of ongoing discussion, I'm removing the tag for now. If discussion is continuing and I've failed to see it, however, please feel free to restore the template and continue to address the issues. Thanks to everybody working on this one! -- Khazar2 (talk) 03:11, 14 June 2013 (UTC)