Talk:Upstate New York/Archive 1

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Upstate pro sports influence and popularity

This map gives a pretty good idea of what pro sports teams are most popular and influential upstate.

http://www.commoncensus.org/sports.php

Just click on each pro sport to see. Spooky873 (talk) 02:08, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Culture section needs Major re-write

Perhaps someone can explain to me why this section is so Rochester-centric, and why 11 out of 16 paragraphs (plus a table!!!) in the "upstate culture" section concern Rochester sports teams, some exceedingly minor and obscure.

Nothing against Rochester, but it is but one of many upstate cities, and of those it is not even the largest. The two professional-level teams upstate (the NFL's Bills and NHL's Sabres) get barely a passing mention before the article delves into the litany of obscure Rochester sports teams.

Either all of that Rochester-sports trivia should be deleted, or else all that information should be added for all other upstate cities (i.e. every other city has tons of minor sports teams as well, eg. Buffalo Bandits lacrosse, Buffalo Bisons baseball, UB Bulls football, St. Bonaventure basketball, Niagara Univ. hockey, etc.)140.251.125.50 (talk) 21:51, 29 January 2008 (UTC)Matt

Edit: I've tried to rectify the situation somewhat by adding some Buffalo-specific information to balance out the overwhelming amount of Rochester stuff. The section probably still needs some improvement though.140.251.125.50 (talk) 22:29, 29 January 2008 (UTC)Matt

based on this article one would surmise 80-% of upstate was in the Rochester media market. Are you guys all drunk on Genesee? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.9.141.78 (talk) 23:18, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

EDIT! The stuff about Rochester and Buffalo sports is simply excessive and needs to be gone. At the very least, start a separate section within the article for "Sports" instead of dumping all of it into "Culture!" Or consider starting a new separate article for Upstate sports teams. Good God. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.230.239.88 (talk) 19:22, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

See the new article Athletics in Upstate New York, where I have moved most of this. Don Argus jr (talk) 19:53, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Upstate Election Results

This article previously stated that President Bush managed to win Upstate New York. Upon reviewing the election results I discovered this to be incorrect.

Subtracting the five counties of New York City (Bronx, Kings, New York, Queens and Richmond) from the vote total leaves Senator Kerry with 2,486,265 votes to 2,375,033 for President Bush. Going further and subtracting Long Island (Nassau and Suffolk counties) as well as Rockland county and Westchester country leaves Senator Kerry with 1,553,246 votes to 1,551,971 votes for President Bush. A margin of 1,275 votes.

If you double check the results from my source you will find this to be the case. Remember that you need to include the vote totals from the Conservative Party for Bush and the Working Families Party for Kerry because of New York State's Electoral fusion laws.

Source: http://www.elections.state.ny.us/elections/2004/president04.pdf from The NYS Board of Elections, Election results


--Tchaika 19:41, 13 June 2006 (UTC).


Good find. I had heard that before that without downstate, upstate was all Bush but that is totally false. Thank you Spooky873 (talk) 02:09, 23 April 2008 (UTC)


Tchaika, could you add your sources to the "Politics" section of the article? It's coming under criticism for being uncited. Thanks, Don Argus jr (talk) 20:09, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Map

Although the article correctly points out that Westchester is not considered to be Upstate, the map contradicts this. Nelson Ricardo 04:52, Oct 25, 2004 (UTC)

  • I changed the image to reflect this... the change is not registering yet...--Pharos 23:03, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)
    • Wow, that took a long time.--Pharos 06:29, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)
      • Made Rockland change
    • I personally think the map is terrible! I'm sure there are better ideas, but my suggestion is to have as red just the five boroughs of the city of New York, then as orange the New York City CMSA, then have both yellow and green labeled as upstate new york, and green labeled as the North Country. Perhaps also have the map reflect the fact that Albany and the lower-Hudson Valley is considered downstate by all state departments. 24.182.142.254 (talk) 08:38, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
  • Born and grew up in Schenectady County; I don't know anyone in the tri-county (Albany-Schenectady-Troy) area who didn't consider themselves upstate. I do know several people from Poughkeepsie who definitely considered themselves and their town upstate, though I can't say the same for Orange County. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.2.249.5 (talk) 23:39, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Outside of --> North Of

Pharos; your changes reverted my change that changed "outside of NYC" to "north of NYC". To say "outside the core of NYC" would falsely include parts of Long Island as Upstate New York. Chances are that was a mistake, but in any case I'm explaining myself as per Wikipedia policy. --Bletch 17:07, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

  • I did not revert your change, I put in something different. Long Island is part of the core of the New York metropolitan area (ie the Primary Metropolitan Statistical Area) as defined by the US Census, as is Westchester. There's a big diff between NYC and metro area. But I also think it helps to say 'core' in the first, defining sentence instead of the more precise PMSA, to allow differing opinions under the same general concept--Pharos 17:29, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)
    • Thats the first time I've heard all of LI (including Suffolk county) considered to be part of the core of the New York metropolitan area. Fair enough. Perhaps you would not object if I inserted the word 'mainland' in there? It is less ambiguous, and at worst just redundant. --Bletch 18:44, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)
      • I don't think so; even the Bronx is on the mainland.
        • Yes, but the Bronx is very clearly in the core of the NY metro area. So is Westchester. --Bletch 18:54, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)
          • My point exactly: what does "mainland" have to do with upstate? It's not like downstate is the Free City of Tri-Insula...--Pharos 19:02, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)
            • The point is saying "mainland outside the core NYC metro area" is less ambiguous than "outside the core NYC metro area". There is no possibility that inserting the word "mainland" in that phrase can possible cause the Bronx to be included. --Bletch 19:12, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)
              • The 'standard' definition of Upstate in this article is clearly defined; there's a map with the counties highlighted, and the first sentence in the extended definition paragraph below clearly(I hope?) says it to be "the whole of the state besides New York City, Long Island, and Westchester County". The whole point of the single, introductory sentence at the top of the page is that it broadly defines Upstate in a socioeconomic context in a way that everyone (just about) can agree on, yes, even the occasional odd Manhattanite who thinks Long Island is upstate. And I don't see how it helps to call something 'mainland' as opposed to something that is part mainland, part island. It's like saying there's mainland North America, and then there's Alaska.--Pharos 19:38, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)
                • Grouping Orange and Rockland together as questionable , while implying that Putnam is unquestionably upstate is wrong. Putnam (and Rockland as well) is a part of the New York, NY MSA, while Orange is a part of the Newburgh MSA. In addition, Rockland is just as core as Westchester north of Yonkers, so I'm making a change there to include it.

The TZ Bridge is a major psychological barrier, ..I'd say Rockland is as far flung for NYC residents as Westchester past I-287

Three Common Definitions of Upstate New York

Upstate New Yorkers ought to be allowed to define themselves. What New York City residents think "Upstate" is, is of no relevance.

In my experience, there are at least three definitions that are commonly used for Upstate New York:

  • any part of New York State north of the Bronx (this view is held by many NYC residents, not just "provincial Brooklynites"),
  • the above plus Westchester County and Rockland County,
  • any part of New York State south of the New York-Pennsylvania state line (this view is held by many New Yorkers living north of that line.)

--ThorstenNY 06:56, 6 May 2005 (UTC)

    • I grew up in the northern Adirondacks. We considered everything south of Albany to be "Downstate New York". MK2 16:28, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
    • I grew up in lower Westchester Co in the 1970's and early 80's. Back then I remember people there considering everything north of Westchester and Rockland counties to be "upstate". But I really feel now that you can't consider Putnam to be "upstate" anymore, and probably not even the lower parts of Orange and Dutchess counties (for Orange I'd say south of a line from Newburgh to Middletown to Pt. Jervis, for Dutchess anything south of Poughkeepsie) as most of the people who live there now are former "downstaters" and commuters looking for more land/cheaper housing. hairymon 02:02, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
    • I am from Northern Dutchess, and I can see the point about how anything south of Poughkeepsie can be considered "Downstate". But I still feel that anything north of Westchester is "Upstate". FiftyOneWicked 22:22, 18 January 2006 (FiftyOneWicked)
    • Having grown up in Long Island, I always felt that upstate was north of Westchester and Rockland counties with the transition occurring somewhere in the middle of those two counties. Putnam and Dutchess counties were just into upstate, Albany and Lake George were upstate, and Plattsburgh was really upstate (almost in Canada for that matter) ;-) In the end, "upstate" will always be somewhat of a subjective description. The definition of upstate means different things to different people. Some use geography, others base it on whether or not a person regularly works in the NYC area, still others view it based on a more rural lifestyle, or weather patterns, or speech patterns. Steggall 13:14, 19 January 2006]]
    • I grew up in the southern Adirondacks. We consider everything south of Albany county to be downstate. Everything west of Madison county is considered western NY. Everything else is upstate NY. Considering it's called up-state, it would be a bit ridiculous to consider everything north of NYC upstate, since the state itself extends much further north from NYC. Irelynx, 7 January 2006
    • I live in Southern Orange County and there are still many farms and forest so I would include Souther Orange County in the Upstate part of the state. Red1530 17:19, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
    • I grew up in Western New York. Using "Upstate" to mean the whole state above NYC is just a term used by arrogant New York City types who don't know any geography outside their own town. -- DEL
  • I grew up in Western New York too. To me, the term "Upstate New York" was useful mostly for disambiguating, so to speak, New York the city from the rest of the state (except I suppose Long Island, which was usually ignored/forgotten about). For example, a person from Iowa asks, "Where are you from?" Reply, "New York". Iowan, "Ohh, the big city!" Reply, "No, no, Upstate New York." ...being from Western New York, the exact boundary between NYC and Upstate didn't matter. It was somewhere far south of Albany and beyond the Catskills, where things began to get ugly and there were too many highways. Having lived in NYC for a while, and without looking at a map, I might say the Tappen Zee Bridge is about where the boundary is. Course regions that don't have official political boundaries almost never have clear boundaries everyone agrees on. A map could show a fading color gradient instead of a precise boundary. Pfly 17:38, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
    • A good rule of thumb about upstate New York is, it's anywhere that's too far to commute to a job in NYC, and definitely it's anywhere that NYC doesn't rely on for its water supply. If you want to get a good sense of what's where in the state, come to the center for the proper perspective -- that is to say, Syracuse. I grew up in Syracuse, and can assure you that it is not in Western New York, and I don't know anyone anywhere who thinks anything west of Madison County is "western New York." Western New York starts no further east than Rochester, if that. Central NY is a distinct region and is not to be confused with Western NY. For one thing, people say "soda" in CNY (like New Englanders do) and they say "pop" in WNY (like Midwesterners do). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.207.76.107 (talk • contribs) .
  • Yeah, except that "soda/pop" distinction would put Rochester in Central New York, which I don't think anyone does. =) I've always considered Western New York to extend almost to Syracuse. Perhaps Geneva-ish. However, I've noticed that the further west someone lives, the less area is considered "Western New York". For Buffalonians, "WNY" only goes out as far as Orleans/Genesee/Wyoming/Cattaraugus counties. For Rochesterians it might go as far as Cayuga/Tompkins/Tioga. =) Powers 11:27, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Rochester is pretty much on the border between CNY and WNY. 128.230.239.88 17:46, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
  • As somebody who spent years on the northern fringe of the state, even more years within the general Albany region, and has had occasional visits to the area around Buffalo, I have to say that this would indeed appear to be a good rule of thumb. NYC has it's own distinct culture which is separate from the rest of the state. Although there are many different subcultures throughout the state, these tend to be far less pronounced than the divide between the NYC area and the rest of the state.
On a completely unrelated note, I've observed that newscasters often have an Albany accent no matter where you go in the country. I find this to be quite strange.72.224.14.144 17:09, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
    • Another way of distinguishing between Upstate New York (Central, Western, and the St. Lawrence Regions) and the rest of New York is that we pronounce idea correctly, (I-Dee-a) as opposed to (I-Deer).  :) Truthunmasked 10:47, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
    • According to the NYS DMV (at least when I took driver's ed a couple years ago) there are only three parts to New York; New York City, Long Island, and Upstate. I didn't notice it anywhere on the page, and I know there are different restrictions on newly-liscened drivers depending on where you're driving. I, along with many other Lawn Guylandahs, use this definition as the distinction between 'Upstate' and not upstate (much to the dismay of the residents of the near-upstate counties--Westchester, Rockland, etc. BeauBlumberg 19:27, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
    • Just my opinion, but people where I'm from (grew up in Wayne County but currently live in the North Country) consider the Southern Tier, Niagra Frontier, Genessee River Valley, North Country, Adironacks, and northern Catskills to be true Upstate. Albany has always been seen as an extention of power structures in NYC whether correct or not. People east of the Hudson are viewed as more like New Englanders in speech and culture. Upstate can be viewed as a state of mind, Binghamton is "Upstate", while White Plains is not if you catch my drift. I now await the redneck comments. - Matt Willis —Preceding unsigned comment added by 214.13.200.200 (talk) 12:00, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
    • The New York State Comptroller’s Office Division of Local Government Service and Economic Development uses this definition in the article "Outdated Municipal Structures: Cities, Towns and Villages – 18th Century Designations for 21st Century Communities" in the October 2006 issue of its publication Local Government Issues in Focus (Vol. 2, No. 3)[1]:
"One cluster was located upstate (i.e., anywhere outside of the New York City metropolitan area that includes Long Island, Westchester, Rockland and Putnam counties), while those in the other cluster were located almost exclusively downstate."
Don Argus jr (talk) 16:50, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
    • Comments of a native Buffalonian-- As some other users write, the term "Upstate New York" can be considered offensive-- a "throw-away" designation by New York City residents. I assume that many who use the term have no idea of the negative connotations. (It's my opinion that New York City, as a major publishing center, has exported this term, and it has become part of the vernacular.) But I think that this article should mention not simply that there are various definitions/views of what makes up "Upstate New York", but that many residents of the area do not like the term. (For the record, I think the following are New York state's regions: Western New York, Central New York or Finger Lakes region, Adirondacks, Hudson Valley, Southern Tier, Catskills, New York City and Long Island. There is plenty of diversity in the state, not just an either/or designation.) 162.129.44.18 (talk) 22:55, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
      • Thinking of "Upstate" as a pejorative term seems to be most common among you Western New Yorkers. I'll take a stab at working that into the article (or is that original research?) Don Argus jr (talk) 07:48, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
        • Thanks very much for taking this into account!! 162.129.44.18 (talk) 22:02, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
      • To your list of regions I would add the North Country, the Mohawk Valley, the Capital District, and I'd list the Finger Lakes and CNY separately. I don't like "Leatherstocking," but I'm not sure we've got Cooperstown covered yet in this list of regions. Don Argus jr (talk) 07:48, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

7,000 students a major college?

I decided to remove the "minimum 7,000 students" from the list of Upstate New York colleges. This is partly because many of the colleges on the list (i.e. RPI, Hamilton College, Colgate University, Skidmore College, Clarkson University, & several listed SUNYs) have less than 7,000 students, and also, I do not believe that a school having at least 7,000 students makes it major or noticeable. Don't change this unless you leave a talk comment. --Jondude11 02:03, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Buffalo

I removed this text from the article: While Upstate New York may include the Buffalo Metro Area, people from Western New York almost never, refer to themselves as "Upstaters", this is mostly due to the fact that the Buffalo Metro Area is connected to the Greater Toronto Area, and many who live there do not fit the description of the rest of Upstate New York. Because, being from Buffalo, I can say that people from Western New York do refer to themselves as Upstate New York; especially when talking to people from elsewhere in the country. It is true that there are differences among upstate regions, but quite often the main distinction that needs to be made is that being from New York State does not mean being from New York City or having much to do with the city at all. In this sense, it is common to say things like "I'm from New York.. no no, not the city, upstate." This article could certainly use something on the differences between regions and how, for example, Buffalo is fairly closely tied to Toronto. But this sentence seems to be rather saying Western New York isn't really upstate. Pfly 20:27, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

There's also a new "Economic Czar for Upstate New York" under Elliot Spitzer. Guess where his main office is... Buffalo! -newkai t-c 22:47, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
Oh hey, I didn't know you were elected to speak for the rest of us western new yorkers! I've never considered myself from 'Upstate New York', I'm from Western New York. This article is biased. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.48.153.34 (talk) 14:35, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

CICU map of NYS

Did anyone take a look at this? This is how the Commission on Independent Colleges and Universities categorize the different regions of New York State, would anyone agree with this?

http://www.nycolleges.org/pdfs/06LocatorMap.pdf

Taken from [2][3]

JRodz15 19:42, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Residents in the yellow call the green area upstate?

The map accompanying this article is whacked. No one, and I mean no one, considers Central New York and the Hudson Valley to be associated closely enough to merit being the same color! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.230.238.139 (talk) 18:49, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

I've lived in Rochester, hamburg, and oswego...I have never heard of the adirondacks being called the true upstate... while buffalo calls itself western Ny and syracuse central... everyone still agrees that they are in upstate and it has nothing to do with the adirondacks. Also people in Rochester and suburbs just say they are from upstate... not central not western just upstate... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.71.141.141 (talk) 05:48, 11 April 2007 (UTC).

I made this map and wrote the caption for it. You seem to have missed this line (italics added for emphasis): "However, residents of the "yellow" and "green" areas often restrict their definition of "Upstate New York" to the "green" region." OFTEN, not always. I differentiate the "green" region from the "yellow" region to call attention to the fact that people in the "yellow" region often prefer to be called Western New York, Central New York, etc., than Upstate New York. Someone who believes that Buffalo is not Upstate NY but rather Western NY probably defines Upstate NY as the portion of the state north of the Capital District. -EJ220 16:59, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
You may be thinking of the North Country. JMyrleFuller (talk) 18:32, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
I concur with the objection to the idea that yellow-region-residents call the green region "upstate." I was born in Plattsbugh but grew up outside of Syracuse. In Syracuse we already were "upstate." We went "up" (but not "upstate") to Plattsburgh or Alex Bay. Conversely, my Plattsburgh relatives would go "down" to Syracuse or Albany, but only when they went into the Hudson Valley and the orbit of NYC were they going "downstate" (consistent with comments by Irelynx and MK2 above). The green region on your map is the North Country (Watertown and the St. Lawrence Valley to Plattsburgh)and the Adirondacks.
You are right though to say that residents of the Albany-to-Buffalo corridor prefer to say Eastern, Central or Western New York State, except when distinguishing the entire region from metropolitan NYC. The key to being or going "upstate" or "downstate" is in the relationship to NYC. For example, I used to go "downstate" to Poughkeepsie. It was downstate not only because it was in the direction of NYC but also because I perceived the place (rightly or wrongly) to be in the orbit of NYC. That's why Plattsburghers go "down" but not "downstate" to Saratoga Springs; Saratoga is not part of the tri-state metro area. Conversely, a Manhattan resident goes "up" to the Bronx, but might go "upstate" even to Dutchess County; the key difference being that he is getting out of the City. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Don Argus jr (talk • contribs) 07:26, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
Okay, I did it -- I edited the map caption that implied that, for example, Syracusans say they go "upstate" to Watertown. They don't -- they go "up" to Watertown.
This entire discussion reveals a lot about us Upstaters -- both our internal rivalries and our resentment of Downstate areas and ways. By "Downstate" I mean in this instance NYC and Long Island, and Westchester too for good measure -- Joey Buttafuoco et al. Myself, I resented that when asked where I was from I couldn't say simply that "I'm a New Yorker" the way one might say that "I'm a Vermonter" or "I'm Canadian." Instead, I had to launch into a lesson on geography and culture, drawing a map to illustrate, during which lesson I defined my regional identity mostly as what I was not. Empire State, indeed. -Don Argus jr

Living in Albany, I can say I've never heard anyone from the Capital District as "Central" New York. This generally refers to Syracuse from our perspective. I'm not convinced that the "blue" edit to the map helps to clarify the issue, rather it makes the graphic definition even more obscure. This should be reconsidered and furthermore cited with references! I doubt you'll find any reference to the Capital District as "Central New York". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Thepreppie (talk • contribs) 21:24, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

In the interests of SANITY, it must be kept in mind that Upstate regions OVERLAP. Buffalo is the center of the Western NY region, Rochester is peripheral to it; Rochester is the major city of the Finger Lakes region, Syracuse is peripheral to it; Syracuse is the major city of the Central New York region, Utica is peripheral to it; Utica-Rome is the major metro of the Mohawk Valley region. And so on. WNY - Buffalo definitely, Rochester maybe. CNY - Syracuse definitely, Utica-Rome maybe.

The Catskills are UPSTATE FOR DOWNSTATERS. Divide the state into three cake tiers (NYC/LI, then a tier south of I-88, and then the rest). Call one "downstate," call the middle one "upstate for downstaters," and call the third one "upstate for upstaters." There, all done. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.230.238.139 (talk) 18:59, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Golden Horseshoe

From a Canadian standpoint Upstate New York is 'unofficially recognized as part of the Golden Horseshoe'. It might warrant a note on the main page for Upstate New York. Please comment User:Brenont 14:52, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

  • References to Upstate New York are all on this page

List of Municipalities in the Golden Horseshoe
User:Brenont 15:01, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

    • In theory I've lived in the Golden Horseshoe almost my entire life, and have never heard the term except on wikipedia. I wouldn't complain about a sentence along the lines of "Some consider Western New York to be a part of the Golden Horseshoe, a region of high population density within Southern Ontario." However, I don't think the term has any meaning to the Western New Yorkers to which it applies, and that the Western New York economy is very different from that of the Canadian part of the horseshoe. If you disagree, be bold and edit it in anyway --Cjs56 15:17, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
      • I shan't edit in a reference to the Golden Horseshoe as there is no strong case for including parts of New York State in that wiki - there's an ongoing thread on their Discussion page. They do bring up this Canadian govt web page Introduction to the Golden Horseshoe Education Alliance which I feel only reflects the 'academic relations between students throughout the cross-border region' not economic relations and doesn't shed light on a Golden Horseshoe connection.
        User:Brenont 17:58, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Hudson Valley accent?

There's an AFD debate now about the article Hudson Valley English, at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Hudson Valley English. Im asking the people here whether there really is an accent or dialect unique to the Capital area, and inviting them to vote on the deletion. Squidfryerchef 15:47, 9 June 2007 (UTC)


3 parts of NY

I think there are 3, not 2 different regions of New York. In relation to NYC, everything else is upstate, but, within upstate itself it is pretty different. Its insulting to get asked if i'm a Buffalo fan cause i'm from upstate, when I live over 3 hours from Buffalo. Do people honestly think Buffalo has a grip on the state as far as Albany? I'd consider Western a different region in and of itself respectively. You can talk all you want about how NYC is this and Upstate is that, but when you take Upstate by itself, there are still many areas different from eachother. Buffalo and Rochester are undoubtedly their own region (Western NY), and Syracuse to Albany can be seen as Eastern NY, which includes the Binghamton region. Anyone else notice how Utica has the EXACT same longitude as Philadelphia? 131.125.115.65 (talk) 07:56, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree, this article (or at least the introduction) has a decidingly NYC-bias to it. --Yende (talk) 14:50, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Contradiction

To list a population figure for "Upstate" implies that the author has endorsed a specific definition for what is Upstate. Considering that the remainder of the article is devoted to the different perceptions of what upstate is (depending on what part of New York the person giving the definition is from), perhaps rewording to the effect that a substantial minority resides in this part of the state would be most appropriate. Raj Fra 05:44, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Syracuse...

WE ARE IN THE FUCKING MIDDLE!! MIDDLE = CENTRAL HENCE "CNY" for CENTRAL NEW YORK

singed- Anonymous Syracusean

Agreed...this article strikes me as written by a bunch of people from new york city and has a very "downstate" POV. The map itself is ridiculous. Since when is 3/4 of a state considered upstate by any sensible means? 50% maybe. 67.241.72.20 (talk) 20:02, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
The United States Census Bureau would not consider Upstate to be "3/4 of the state." Other upstaters seem to be so in their own little compartments that they refuse to acknowledge the similarities between their regions and the rest of the state outside New York City. That's what upstate is-- an umbrella term for the rest of the state outside the New York City metro. Get over it, people-- yes, 3/4 of the geographic area of a state can be put into one region, just as 3/5 of the population can be put into one city. Face it! Western New York is not that much different from Central New York, or the Southern Tier, or the North Country. You're all upstate. That's the whole point of this article.J. Myrle Fuller (talk) 21:21, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
Yeah, but that is your point of view, it is not objective and it is not encyclopedic. I agree anything above Westchester is upstate, but the fact is the people who live there do not always feel that is the case. So not reporting that accurately makes this article biased to an NYC point of view. 69.120.200.207 (talk) 02:20, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

Article length

This article is over 80KB long - according to WP:Article size, it should probably be split into smaller articles to make it easier to read and edit. Looking at the page as it is now, the most obvious candidate for a spin-off article would be List of people from Upstate New York - all the lists of people on this page could be moved to that page. Does anyone else have any thoughts on this? Terraxos (talk) 13:58, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

I am responsible for initiating many of the lists of people of Upstate New York, and therefore for much of the article length. I admit that this is a patriotic endeavor; my contributions are an attempt to bring together information about my overlooked, poorly-understood, neglected, struggling homeland in order to change perceptions of it and to foster appreciation of it. In so doing, my own perceptions have been changed. Upstate New York is crucial to the development and very existence of the entire nation, in ways quite distinct from that of the distant metropolis to which it is subject. And yet, as we see above, there is not even consensus regarding its very definition. I wish such a resource as this article was available when I was a kid and my perceptions were being formed. For me, the length of the article establishes and confirms the significance of the place.
The argument for spinning off sections as new articles that is most compelling to me is to make it easier to read and edit; I will turn my attention to this as time permits. I'll leave it to others to respond to complaints about style and original research; the nature and content of those portions of the article as well as the discussion around it are emblematic of the nature of the people of Upstate New York, and are therefore in my view instructive and entirely appropriate.Don Argus jr (talk) 15:34, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Original research

Yes, it is too long, but that's just part of the problem. Am I offbase or is the bulk of this article original research? I'm not saying it's a bad article, or that I disagree with it, but it just isn't really sourced. The style of the article makes it read more like an essay than an objective and neutral article. --JohnnyB256 (talk) 15:52, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Where are the sources supporting this?
I agree that much of this article appears to be original research. Additionally, this image provides information to readers, but is unsourced and should probably be considered original research as well. --JBC3 (talk) 02:26, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

SUNY Upstate Medical University

SUNY Upstate Medical University is in Syracuse, NY. This is in the yellow region, right? --JimWae (talk) 08:38, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Cookie in the culture section

According to the article on black and white cookies, they originated in New York. While they may be consumed upstate, I don't think these can be described as a cultural characteristic of upstate NY. --JohnnyB256 (talk) 21:33, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Population

If there are no good sources, we just won't run a number. The NY metropolitan area contains much of New Jersey, so you can't just subtract that from the population of NY state and say "some of this is New Jersey." Wikipedia is not a reliable source and the last version had a footnote referring to Wikipedia.--JohnnyB256 (talk) 20:32, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Where are the sources for the map?

I'd like to raise again the issue JBC3 brought up back in July and received no answer: what are the sources for the large map illustrating this article. It appears to be a Wikipedia editor's concept of something that is nowhere defined, which is the exact boundaries of upstate New York. This map arbitrarily has a line crossing through counties in the northern part of the state separating the green from yellow regions. Down by New York City, Orange County is divided in half between "New York exurbs" and "upstate," and Rockland County is divided between "exurbs" and "suburbs." I have some serious doubts about this kind of arbitrary division of counties, and I'd like to see some sourcing for it. If there is no sourcing, I'm afraid it will have to go. No sourcing was offered since July, but I'll give it another little while before removing.--JohnnyB256 (talk) 14:23, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Good question. I have problems with the map too, but would have just as serious a problem with arbitrarily drawing a line that *corresponds* with county lines.
So take the map down. In its place, how about a NY State map that does not attempt to distinguish between upstate and downstate with a distinct line? There will never be a consensus.Don Argus jr (talk) 08:50, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
That's a good idea. I'm just being overcautious, as there is actually no independent sourcing at all which justifies the lines on the map. If there were, it would be in the article. JohnnyB256 (talk) 14:09, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
I'm not completely comfortable with choosing not to illustrate something just because sources disagree on how it should be illustrated, but I can certainly see the point. Powers T 17:20, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
The problem with both the map and the article in general is a lack of sources of any kind to define "upstate." There are many media mentions of something being "upstate" or a legislator from "upstate" but I don't think there's a single source saying "these are the boundaries of upstate New York." The entire article is basically original research unfortunately.--JohnnyB256 (talk) 03:44, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
Most of the article is uncited. I'm not sure I'd consider it necessarily original research, however. It's clear the concept of Upstate New York exists, and that the concept is verifiable. That the boundaries are poorly defined is not a fatal problem. We don't need to (necessarily) find an authoritative source that clearly defines the boundaries, so long as we don't ourselves attempt to declare definitive boundaries. I think the article right now explains the situation fairly well. Powers T 13:51, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
Now this is interesting. I did a little Googling and found a press release from the county executive of Dutchess County[4], indicating that there is an official designation of "upstate New York" in the NYState government, and that Dutchess is not upstate! It says in the release that "'Upstate New York' is designed to provide increased economic development focus and attention on the regions north and west of Albany County. Many of these areas have faced economic difficulties. The Hudson Valley region including Dutchess County, has traditionally been considered part of 'Downstate' for economic development purposes." This is not definitive, but it indicates to me that it is possible to draw a narrow definition of "upstate." I had always thought that the Poughkeepsie area was upstate but this says no. This needs to be added to the article if it isn't there, but this also shows how hazy the whole thing is, particularly if you want to map it.--JohnnyB256 (talk) 14:16, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
Well, that's a purely administrative division -- and then only for purposes of the Economic Development efforts of the governor's administration. There are also cultural and economic definitions that may vary (and would account for your perception of Dutchess County as already Upstate). Powers T 14:34, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Restoration of Map

It seems to be that the shaded map which was previously removed should be restored. I know that there is not (and will never be) a true consensus on the issue, but the image provides a great primer on Upstate New York for somebody who just wants some background on the issue. As a lifelong upstater with extensive knowledge on the subject, I feel that the map is a very good graphical representation of the most common definitions of Upstate New York. The red section is undeniably the New York Metro area and Long Island (certainly not unfounded research). The next section also includes the exurbs of New York City, and also corresponds to Interstate 84, another good indication of a boundary. I admit the green shaded region is a little ambiguous, but it does correspond with the Adirondack Park, another very concrete region, and is known as the "North Country." So, while the map may not be perfect and is a little arbitrary, it contributes so much to the article in giving people a visual idea of Upstate. This is much easier for somebody unfamiliar to the term to interpret than the text in the article. Jasebasketball (talk) 18:09, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Delete this article? Absolutely not!

The contributor Farine, frustrated with the POV of some sentences, has proposed to delete the whole article. I disagree completely. Upstate New York is a region and culture distinct from downstate New York, and is eminently worthy of its own article. Don Argus jr (talk) 06:05, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Politics section spun off

With apologies to JMyrleFuller and other contributors to the section, I moved the "Politics" section of the Upstate New york article to a separate article, for two reasons:

1. As the length of the Upstate NY article has been criticiized, I am spinning off lengthy sections into their own articles.

2. This section seemed to be the focus of "POV" objections to the upstate New York article as a whole.

I mean to make no criticism of the content of this section (now article). Personally, I have had no objection to the lengthy and sometimes contentious nature of the Upstate article, as I think it better reflects the nature and culture of the people that way, as un-Wiki as that may be.

But under the threat of deletion, I seek to respond to the critics.

Cheers, Don Argus jr (talk) 18:52, 6 June 2010 (UTC)


  • How can votes in presidential elections be determined without making clear what "boundaries" are being used? JUST putting the figures in a separate article Politics of Upstate New York does not really solve the problem. There is no source cited, either--JimWae (talk) 19:52, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Sigh. Good points. JMyrle, where do your figures come from? Don Argus jr (talk) 20:02, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

  • Well, removing that does at least solve the problem for the Upstate New York article. Wonder where the data came from--JimWae (talk) 20:08, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
  • Ah, see the "Upstate Election Results" section above. Tchaika did the math, based on official election results that are no longer posted in the same place (dead links). Tchaika's definition of Upstate (NY State except for Westchester and Rockland counties, NYC and Long Island) seems plausible enough for this purpose. Don Argus jr (talk) 20:16, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

I object to the blanking of this article

I realize I could block User:Anne Feinstein for vandalism, but I'm going to assume good faith here: would you please explain your rationale for deleting the entire article, and insisting, quite without any sourcing, that Upstate New York is everything north of 41 degrees latitude, and the article should have no other content whatsoever? Lacking a persuasive explanation I will restore the article shortly. Thank you, Antandrus (talk) 02:33, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Temporal dimension

Having lived in various parts of New York (that's the state, as opposed to "New York City"), I've noticed there is a definite change in definition. Whereas Ulster County, for example, might have once been "Upstate," it is now considered "Downstate" by nearly everyone but those from New York City. The extension of the NY-PA border appears to be the best current demarkation. Posted from spoofed IP Address 173.161.195.122 (talk) 17:04, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

Excellent point. When Washington Irving was writing, Tarrytown was upstate too. Don Argus jr (talk) 01:45, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Altitude

I strongly disagree that altitude has anything to do with "upstate." If we applied this concept to Colorado, most of the western part of the state would be "upstate," because that's where the Rockies are.

No, such descriptions are purely directional: north is up, south is down; anything north of Westchester County is Upstate. Terrain that just happens to be in the northern part of the state does not enter into it. Mfwills (talk) 13:52, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

That is your opinion. I agree with you but there are millions who do not, I'm telling you. This article is written far too POV. 69.120.200.207 (talk) 02:54, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

yet another merge proposal?

We've been through this before, and the decision was to keep this article distinct. I feel justified in making a "speedy deletion" of the merge tag. Don Argus jr (talk) 08:53, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

Upperstate

I added a little commentary on the term "upperstate." This term was in wide use on radio stations and local media in the NY metro area including in New Jersey and on Long Island. Sometimes it referred to close-in suburbs like Westchester. Other times it refers to northern NY, that is, not a suburb of NYC. Both terms "upstate" and "upperstate" were in wide use and meant different things to different local people. --KJRehberg (talk) 21:41, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

I have lived in UPSTATE (Syracuse) all my life and have NEVER heard the term "upperstate." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.230.238.139 (talk) 18:51, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

I grew up in Poughkeepsie (1950s, 1960s), and before me, my mother's family went back six generations there. Among my entire family, my friends and their families, we were in upstate New York, and that's how I will always see it. And despite the many hours of listening to radio and watching TV out of New York City, I never heard the term "upperstate" either, until now. This entire article is a POV discussion and simply cannot be called encyclopedic by any stretch. Not even marginally.--Mfwills (talk) 13:14, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Caption is wrong

It should be: green: always considered upstate, blue,yellow: sometimes considered upstate

As it is right now, it is the opposite of what it should be. Some people who live in yellow do not consider themselves upstate at all. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.120.200.207 (talk) 02:18, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

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