Talk:Association of Vineyard Churches

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1

Where did all the content go?[edit]

Well, I can't claim to be an experienced wikipedian, but I'm pretty sure that the edits that 76.28.178.11 made today were against the rules. I'll just see if I can undo them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.5.200.111 (talk) 21:05, 18 February 2010 (UTC)


NPOV tag on Criticism section[edit]

Tdkocher added this tag on April 12, but has not made any subsequent changes or added any explanation to this page regarding this tag. While I think the section could use a little cleanup, I don't see how it makes the article non-NPOV. If no one disputes the removal of this tag within a reasonable amount of time, I'll remove it. Jhortman (talk) 16:27, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

No one has objected to this change, so I'm removing the tag for now. If re-adding the tag at a later date, please post justification as to why in this space. Jhortman (talk) 02:51, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
I added the tag specifically to address the fact that, while Hanegraaf's specific points are laid out, the Vineyard's response to his book, as well as responses by individuals independent of the Vineyard, are not included and laid out in a similar fashion. Perhaps a "response to criticism" section should be added, but at this point the criticism section does not give a fair representation of the disagreement between Hanegraaf and the Vineyard. Tdkocher (talk) 02:50 26 April 2011 (UTC)
I think you should substantiate your criticism by either adding what you think is missing, or clarifying it here on the talk page. Its great that you have an opinion on this - hopefully it will lead to a more accurate article. Please edit further. Hyper3 (talk) 11:14, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
I do think that the size of this section is to large when the rest of the article is taken into consideration. For one thing, the title is somewhat misleading. It says "Criticism and the Toronto Blessing" which at first glance implies that there will be criticism of the Vineyard, but in reality it just talks about criticism of the Toronto Blessing which was under Wimber's umbrella but eventually the two groups parted ways. This leads to my second point: this section is not actually about current criticism of the Vineyard—its about an historical period in the life of the Vineyard movement. Ideally, I'd like to see this section converted into a subsection of the History section which deals with the rise of the Toronto Blessing within the Vineyard and the Vineyard's response to it. Ltwin (talk) 16:54, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
I also appreciate your willingness to help make this article better... it could certainly use it. I think it would help the article more, however, if you could actually make some more substantive edits instead of just "drive-by tagging." For example, I agree with Ltwin that the criticism section could be more effective if subsumed into the History section. Would you be willing to take a first pass at doing that? Jhortman (talk) 15:10, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
I suggest that this section be rewritten to be shorter and easier to understand in relation to Vineyard. More detail criticism of the Toronto Blessing should belong in that article where readers can go if they want to know more. The inclusion of statement about John Wimbers responses should include general information about what he was responding to, not just how and why he responded. The criticism of Toronto Blessing is too off topic to take up such large amounts of this article, in my humble opinion. Was the vineyard movement only criticized for the Toronto Blessing and for no other reason? This section makes it look like this event was the only controversial thing that has happened within the movement. I will work on this article more if there is no one else who will.Flofor15 (talk) 20:46, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

See also: Calvary Chapel[edit]

Tdkocher also added Calvary Chapel to the "See also" section. Since Calvary Chapel is referenced in the History section of the page, I see no need to reference it again. Therefore, I'm removing it. Jhortman (talk) 16:27, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Lonnie Frisbee addition[edit]

I added Lonnie Frisbee as a "see also" primarily because of his large impact on the Vineyard during its beginning stages. Please respond here first if you have an issue with this addition. Tdkocher (talk) 02:56 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Given his significant work in the early Vineyard Movement, he probably deserves more than just a "See Also" mention. If you're willing to edit the History section as we discussed above, it would be great if you could also add some content regarding Frisbee's role in the church. (There is already a small base of well-sourced content in the Lonnie Frisbee wiki article.) Jhortman (talk) 15:18, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Shift to Egalitarianism after Wimbers death[edit]

I've had a degree of involvement with the vineyard church over the years. I'm wondering if it's worth adding a section mentioning the shift in theology from Complementarianism to Egalitarianism in the Vineyard church since Wimber's death.

Note the section in John Wimber's wiki page below on his views on gender. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wimber

See reference below, this was referenced in the article above. http://www.cbmw.org/Journal/Vol-12-No-2/Women-in-Ministry-in-the-Vineyard-USA — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.16.236.14 (talk) 15:48, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

As long as any statements regarding the Vineyard's theological positions can be referenced by independent, reliable sources, then please do. (Remember that no original research is permitted, as well.) I believe the CBMW link you posted is probably not a reliable reference because it is an organization dedicated to promoting the Egalitarianism viewpoint. Religion, like politics, is an unusual subject, though, so the CBMW link might be ok, after all... it would be good to have more discussion on that issue. It would definitely be better if you could also use a more neutral reference in addition to the CBMW link, though. -Jhortman (talk) 22:57, 28 December 2011 (UTC)