Talk:War in Dagestan (1999)

Video

The video included in the external links section is an extremely brutal, 5-part throat-cutting video, showing Chechen rebels slaughtering 6 Russian conscripts in Dagestan in 1999. The video is not mentioned in the main body of the article and it has no clear explanation of what the viewer will see when they click the URL (save for LiveLeak's own warning). Is it really needed? If so, shouldn't we at least talk about war crimes or the video itself in the article? I've removed it in the meantime; it doesn't serve any purpose except to horrify unsuspecting readers who have no reason to suspect that the video they're about to see is so gruesome. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.220.107.61 (talk) 06:03, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Should this be included?

I am moving this content from page Russian apartment bombings to discuss if it should be included on this page.

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• I quickly fixed this text if anyone wants to re-include. It is still very poorly written. My very best wishes (talk) 18:28, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

Text to be re-included

In September 1999, transcripts of a number of alleged phone conversations conducted by Berezovsky with Udugov, Makhashev and other radical Chechens in June and July 1999 were published by Moskovskij Komsomolets newspaper. During the conversations, Berezovsky reportedly was negotiating a price for an incursion by the rebels into Dagestan. According to Alex Goldfarb, Berezovsky said him that a secret agreement had been reached in the spring of 1999 between Chechens Basayev and Udugov, and the Kremlin leadership for a short victorious war in the Caucasus. Russia would begin limited military action in Chechnya in response to the Wahhabis in Dagestan. The Upper Terek district of Chechnya would be returned to Russia, resulting in the fall of the Maskhodov regime, Maskhodov’s place being taken by Basayev and Udugov.

In early August 1999, the investigative journal Versiya published a report that the head of the Russian presidential administration, Alexander Voloshin, had met secretly with Shamil Basayev on July 4, 1999. The meeting was arranged by a retired officer of the GRU Anton Surikov and took place at a villa owned by the arms dealer Adnan Khashoggi between Nice and Monaco. Many of the participants of the meeting had fought on the same side during the Abkhazia-Georgia conflict during the early 1990s. According to Boris Kagarlitsky, French intelligence was able to listen the conversations., and Voloshin was concerned about the succession of power, the Luzhkov/Primakov alliance. They had to be stopped and a conflict with an external enemy was required to achieve this. Basayev, on the other hand, was interested in power in Chechnya. With the influence of the legal president of Chechnya, Maskhadov growing, a small war was needed to change that. A larger conflict would have left Maskhadov in charge.

After being replaced as prime minister in August and before the presidential elections in March 2000, Sergei Stepashin, in separate discussions with three different journalists, made a number of references to the planning of the invasion of Chechnya by the Kremlin which started in March 1999. According to Stepashin, the aim in March 1999 was to place a sanitary cordon around Chechnya but in July this was broadened to seize territory north of the Terek. In John Dunlop's view, Russian forces would have entered Chechnya even if there had been no invasion of Dagestan and no acts of terrorism in Moscow.

As Patrick Cockburn pointed out: "The revelation by Mr Stepashin, that Russia planned to go to war long before it has previously admitted, lends support to allegations in the Russian press that the invasion of Dagestan in August and the bombings in September were arranged by Moscow to justify its invasion of Chechnya."

According to Williams, Moscow belatedly reacted to the invasion in Dagestan. As mentioned above, while Yeltsin may have made the decision to invade Chechnya, it was Putin who gave the order to invade. According to John Dunlop, on the same day that Yeltsin appointed Putin as acting premier, Putin chaired a meeting of the Security Council. In his memoirs, Yeltsin wrote that the attack on Dagestan threatened a "powerful explosion of separatism", which might have resulted in dissolving the country into several parts and creating a humanitarian disaster "on a far larger scale than that of Yugoslavia": "This scenario was easy to foresee. It was much harder to find the courage and will to prevent it from happening. Putin turned to me and requested absolute power to conduct the needed military operation and coordinate all power structures. I supported him without hesitation."

References

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Just for clarity. Two years ago, on 15 September 2017, user MVBW has removed this text from the Wikipedia page on the Russian apartment bombings. Recently he has rewritten it, essentially authoring a new text of his own, and has put it on this page.

-- Document hippo (talk) 11:02, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

Allegations regarding Berezovsky

Currently there's a passage in the article saying the following:

According to Boris Berezovsky, he had a conversation with the Chechen Islamist ideologist and Basayev's propaganda chief Movladi Udugov six months before the beginning of the rebel invasion of Dagestan.[19] Allegedly, Udugov proposed to start the Dagestan war to provoke the Russian response, topple the Chechen president Maskhadov and establish new Islamic republic made of Chechnya and Ingushetia that would be friendly to Russia. Berezovsky asserted that he refused the offer, but "Udugov and Basayev conspired with Stepashin and Putin to provoke a war to topple Maskhadov..., but the agreement was for the Russian army to stop at the Terek River. Putin double-crossed the Chechens and started an all-out war."[19] A transcript of the conversation was leaked to a Moscow tabloid, Moskovskij Komsomolets, on September 10, 1999.[20]

References 19 and 20 are to pages 216 and 189, respectively, of the book by Marina Litvinenko and Alexander Goldfarb, "Death of a Dissident".

Here's what page 216 says:

Felshtinsky flew from Boston to New York to catch Boris, who was giving a talk at the Council on Foreign Relations. It took him two days, chasing Boris between New York and Washington, to grab his attention. On the way to the airport to fly back home, Felshtinsky finally managed to get him to focus on the events of the previous September. It is true, Boris said, that the war was planned for six months before the Dagestan events, over his objections. It is false that he conspired with Udugov. It is true that Udugov came to see him. It is also true that Udugov and Basayev conspired with Stepashin and Putin to provoke a war to topple Maskhadov and install the Islamist government, but the agreement was for the Russian army to stop at the Terek River. However, Putin double-crossed the Chechens and started an all-out war.

That's a hell of a spin. --Document hippo (talk) 02:13, 15 September 2019 (UTC)

I changed the relevant part of the article to the following:

According to Boris Berezovsky, the war was planned for six months before the Dagestan events, over his objections. Berezovsky confirmed that Udugov came to see him, but denied that he conspired with Udugov. However, according to Berezovsky "Udugov and Basayev conspired with Stepashin and Putin to provoke a war to topple Maskhadov..., but the agreement was for the Russian army to stop at the Terek River. Putin double-crossed the Chechens and started an all-out war."

I hope that it more adequately reflects the source (page 216 of the book by Litvinenko and Goldfarb).

--Document hippo (talk) 02:40, 15 September 2019 (UTC)

It looks like the previous text stayed at this page for over 10 years.

--Document hippo (talk) 08:20, 15 September 2019 (UTC)

OK, I agree that book "Death of a Dissident" is a better source than an article in Moskovskij Komsomolets. Welcome to fix. However, you are wrong saying that old text was distortion. Old text tells that Berezovskiy self-admittedly had a conversation with Udugov about this (yes, book tells he did). Old text tells that Berzovsky refused (and yes, the book tells it). My very best wishes (talk) 15:03, 15 September 2019 (UTC)

All I'm saying is that I envy your vivid imagination. --Document hippo (talk) 23:14, 15 September 2019 (UTC)

Old version does not say B. conspired with Udugov. It tells B. admitted having a conversation about it with Udugov. There is no distortion at all. Now, remember, this is just something Berezovskiy "said" aka denied. It well could be that he actually conspired with Udugov, together with other members of the administration, as noted in the book by Amy Knight, and BTW speculated about by Soros (the quotation you want to include to another page). My very best wishes (talk) 23:38, 15 September 2019 (UTC)

Yes, the book by Litvinenko and Goldfarb says B. had a conversation with Udugov. About what? That's unspecified. Perhaps, they conversed about another routine prisoner exchange, as Paul Klebnikov has suggested? --Document hippo (talk) 23:42, 15 September 2019 (UTC)

No, the book tells they talked about planning the war - according to Berezovskiy - see your own quotation above. My very best wishes (talk) 23:50, 15 September 2019 (UTC)

So, your reasoning is that Udugov and Basayev planned the war in advance. Berezovsky used to talk to Udugov -- and since he learned about the war 6 months before the events, means that he must have talked to Udugov at that point. Ok, I see the point. --Document hippo (talk) 00:06, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

My reasoning? Was not it you who just posted this above from the book: "according to Berezovsky "Udugov and Basayev conspired with Stepashin and Putin to provoke a war to topple Maskhadov..., but the agreement was for the Russian army to stop at the Terek River. Putin double-crossed the Chechens and started an all-out war." That is what Berezovsky talked with Udugov - according to Berezovsky. My very best wishes (talk) 00:26, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Spetsnaz gru 1999.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 14:55, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

Displacement of civilians

LuckyStrike007, you've removed long-standing content which is supported by a RS. It's your responsibility to establish consensus for that here at the talk page. Alaexis_¿question? 07:21, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

Opposing forces

Alaexis The opposing forces section cite no sources. There's a template message at the top since 2017 regarding this. This is an issue and we either need to remove the unsourced material or find some sources. I'll dig around and see what I can do.Ola Tønningsberg (talk) 22:23, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, it's a shame there is no source as it's a well-written overview. I don't see it in the Russian wiki article, so I'll try to look for sources too. Alaexis_¿question? 19:58, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 9 July 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) – MaterialWorks 10:47, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

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War of Dagestan → War in Dagestan (1999) – This proposed title is the official name for the conflict. We do not use 'War of (country name)', but we use the '(country) War' or 'War in (country) formats'. WikipedianRevolutionary (talk) 07:59, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

• Wars do not have "official" names. Super Ψ Dro 08:48, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

  What about the 'Iraq War' or 'Second World War'? WikipedianRevolutionary (talk) 09:15, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

  The Iraq War is also known as the Second Gulf War [1]. Wars do not have official names, but many have overwhelmingly common ones such as World War II. estar8806 (talk) ★ 15:07, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

You'll need to show that the proposed name is the one that most of English-language reliable sources use. Alaexis_¿question? 09:40, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

Is google scholar good? WikipedianRevolutionary (talk) 09:43, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

If yes, I suggest we move it to War in Dagestan, as it has 19.5k results, more than War of Dagestan, which has 19.4k results. WikipedianRevolutionary (talk) 09:44, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

Support- While SuperDro is right that wars do not have official names, the results from google scholars do support the move: "War of Dagestan" returns 21 results [2]; "War in Dagestan" returns 143 results [3]; and "Dagestan War" returns 44 results [4] (all searches made in quotations). estar8806 (talk) ★ 15:06, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose simply War in Dagestan as too vague. Many of User:Estar8806's 143 results in Scholar for the term refer to other wars in Daghestan such as the Russian conquest of Chechnya and Dagestan or activities of the North Caucasian Emirate and Mountainous Republic of the Northern Caucasus of the Russian Civil War period. Support a move to War in Dagestan (1999) or 1999 Dagestan War per normal practice at Wikipedia (cf. War in Abkhazia (1992–1993) and 1991–1992 South Ossetia War); I prefer the former. —  AjaxSmack  22:33, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

  Thank you for pointing out that the proposed title is ambiguous. In that case I think a move to War in Dagestan (1999) is our best bet, as scholar still returns more results even with the addition of "1999" [5] estar8806 (talk) ★ 22:40, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

  Changed it! WikipedianRevolutionary (talk) 12:50, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.