Talk:Wartislaw Swantibor

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
WikiProject Biography (Rated Stub-class)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.
Stub-Class article Stub  This article has been rated as Stub-Class on the project's quality scale.
 
Note icon
This article has been automatically rated by a bot or other tool as Stub-Class because it uses a stub template. Please ensure the assessment is correct before removing the |auto= parameter.
WikiProject Poland (Rated Stub-class, Low-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Poland, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Poland on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
Stub-Class article Stub  This article has been rated as Stub-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Low  This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
 

Name[edit]

I moved it back to "of Szczecin". I don't understand why the German should be used for a period when the city was not part of Germany and when there weren't many Germans present in the town. Also there's the Gdansk vote.Volunteer Marek 04:51, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

We could avoid the whole town-name issue and have this article under "Wartislaw Swantibor".Volunteer Marek 05:01, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

The original title was Wartislaw II of Stettin, and that is where it should stay. Stettin was then a mixed German-Pomeranian place. The Griffins since 1181 were vassals of the HRE, Stettin was Danish by the time of Wartislaw, so it does not make sense to introduce the modern Polish name here. Gdansk vote can not be applied to Stettin in this period of time, when its history differs fundamentally from that of Gdanzig. Skäpperöd (talk) 05:33, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
No, it shouldn't. It was not a "mixed German-Pomeranian place", unless you think that a couple of German merchants make it a "mixed" city, which is really stretching things for sake of a particular POV. At the time there were probably more straight-up Poles in the city than Germans. You're taking something - significant German settlement - that had not occurred for another two hundred years or so, putting it in some time machine of yours and sending it back in time to the period under consideration. And if you really think that using the "modern Polish name" is wrong, how in the world does it follow that therefore we must use the "modern German name"?
And why shouldn't the Gdansk vote apply? Szczecin has a shared Polish-German history. And by that token, if being vassals of the HRE makes this town into a "Stettin" then being part of Poland should make that town into a "Gdansk" in the 1500 and 1600's. But Wikipedia decided otherwise, so for places with shared Polish-German history we use the Polish name for the period 1308.Volunteer Marek 05:39, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
I am glad that you acknowledge the presence of a German community, but before we get into discussions about their quantity, can you please explain why you think there were Poles in Stettin by then? Can you also point out where exactly "Wikipedia decided otherwise, so for places with shared Polish-German history we use the Polish name for the period 1308" ? Skäpperöd (talk) 06:03, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
Why wouldn't I acknowledge it? I just object to ridiculously stretching that small merchant community and using it to turn Szczecin of the time into a "mixed German-Pomeranian place", which it wasn't - and that's the bottomline here.
And with the "Wikipedia decided otherwise..." I'm obviously referring to the Gdansk vote which says that for places/people with shared Polish-German history we use the Polish name pre-1308. And let me ask again, if putting "modern Polish name" is wrong, how in the world does that justify using "modern German name"?
I've looked for english language sources here and that's not gonna help settle the issue. Although I should note that even German language sources don't really refer to this guy as "Wartislaw of Stettin".Volunteer Marek 19:03, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
Please put the other arguments aside for a moment and first substantiate your claim "Wikipedia decided otherwise, so for places with shared Polish-German history we use the Polish name for the period 1308." Where exactly in the Gdansk vote did you find that? Please point out the exact sentence(s). I am not seeing it anywhere in there, but I am always willing to learn. Skäpperöd (talk) 19:28, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
We've been through this before - the practice is in the Cross/Naming section and in the Biographies section: Persons controversial {i.e. neither obviously German or Polish, which is what we have here - VM} follow the guidelines according to the applicable period as decided above. Similar applies to other place names in the region that shares a history between Poland and Germany.. Furthermore, this is the way the vote has always been applied until you tried to game the wording sometime ago. If you think the Gdansk vote applies to Gdansk only (except for the requirement of double naming) then I see no reason why we should use the German names ANYWHERE except in Gdanzig related articles for all of the history except late 18th and 19th centuries.
Now, put other arguments aside for the moment and explain how exactly you justify using the "modern German name" here? It wasn't Germany. It wasn't populated by Germans (though a small community of merchants existed). Even German language sources don't use "Wartislaw of Stettin" <<- i.e. this name has no support in sources.Volunteer Marek 19:39, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

! Volunteer Marek 17:41, 18 April 2013 (UTC)