Talk:Widener Library/Archive 1
 | This is an archive of past discussions about Widener Library. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
| Archive 1 |
"Myth"
"There is an untrue urban myth at Harvard that in order to prevent what befell Widener from happening to another student, all students of Harvard College are required to prove that they can swim before they are allowed to graduate as is actually the case at Cornell and Stanford. While Harvard did require a swimming test of students in the 1920s, it had nothing to do with Widener, and Harvard no longer administers a swimming test for students." Is this useful? --Wetman 29 June 2005 20:29 (UTC)
- Yes, because this urban myth is so widespread. It's even reported on by Snopes.com. —Lowellian (reply) 17:32, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
- I agree that the legend is worth mentioning, but not at such length. The previous text seemed fine -- indeed, it could probably be cut a bit. If more info is worth immortalizing in the WP, perhaps more of the Snopes comments could be reported on in a separate article, e.g. Swim test legend at U.S. universities. --Macrakis 17:44, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
Requested move
Hertz, can you rename to Harry Elkins Widener Memorial Library? There's that stupid double-redirect-axel-spin thing in the way. EEng (talk) 16:06, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- Please explain. Hertz1888 (talk) 16:53, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- Well, that's the actual, formal name, and while I usually care too much about that kind of stuff every time I see "Widener Library" at the head of the article it just seems... inadequate. I can't do the move myself because there's redirect at the target name. As I recall you have the requisite tools for handling that. EEng (talk) 18:25, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- Will do. Hertz1888 (talk) 05:30, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
- Remember in old movies how cops and soldiers would end radio conversations with "Roger wilco"? I suddenly realized the other day that means "Will comply". Over and out. EEng (talk) 05:45, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
- I thought you were an admin (who can do a "move over redirect" or whatever without the CSD trouble) but I see now you're not. Thanks for taking care of this. EEng (talk) 16:20, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
- I saw this, and while I can move it as an admin, I'm not going to move it. We use the name by which something is known, and Widener Library is how this is known. Use WP:RM to get a decision. DGG ( talk ) 18:27, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks. I see what you mean, at WP:Commonname. In light of the policy, this matter does deserve reconsideration. Hertz1888 (talk) 18:45, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
- Hertz is way too nice a guy sometimes. Here's my response:
Thanks for lording your admin status over us. Given that two editors, obviously intimately familiar with the subject and "how this is known", agree the move's a good idea, I wonder if a more appropriate humble-janitor-serving-the-project approach wouldn't have been, "I'm an admin who can make the move, but before I do, let's consider [etc etc and so on and so forth]."
The "name by which it is known" principle applies where the formal name is relatively obscure e.g. Liberty Enlightening the World or James Butler Hickock. But where the formal name is comparably well known to various colloquial names (which is what Widener Library is) there's no reason not to give the formal name priority. Do you still want to fuss about this, or will you deign to use your special powers to help things along here?
Another sensible candidate might be Widener Memorial Library, but under the reasoning just stated the full name gets the benefit of the tie-breaker. EEng (talk) 19:16, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
- Since the full name is emblazoned across the front of the building in huge letters, it can hardly be regarded as obscure. We don't invariably use the most common-usage name as a title, or the articles on the Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority might be titled "The T", which is presently not even a redirect. Hertz1888 (talk) 20:03, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
- An aside (I've done some consulting for various transit agencies): an obscure document I ran into once recommended that the MBTA (or MTA, at the time) adopt "T" as an official moniker/symbol, because it happens to suggest (in many languages, apparently) transit, transport, tunnel, tube, train, and maybe some other things I can't recall. Isn't that interesting? EEng (talk) 21:37, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
- As always, Hertz's comment epitomes incisiveness. A personal note: I avoid "blaze", "blazon", or indeed any fiery-sounding imagery when talking about books or libraries -- that's why I don't own a "Kindle". Who the hell came up with that name??? EEng (talk) 20:55, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
- Since the full name is emblazoned across the front of the building in huge letters, it can hardly be regarded as obscure. We don't invariably use the most common-usage name as a title, or the articles on the Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority might be titled "The T", which is presently not even a redirect. Hertz1888 (talk) 20:03, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
- Hertz is way too nice a guy sometimes. Here's my response:
- Thanks. I see what you mean, at WP:Commonname. In light of the policy, this matter does deserve reconsideration. Hertz1888 (talk) 18:45, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
- I saw this, and while I can move it as an admin, I'm not going to move it. We use the name by which something is known, and Widener Library is how this is known. Use WP:RM to get a decision. DGG ( talk ) 18:27, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
- I thought you were an admin (who can do a "move over redirect" or whatever without the CSD trouble) but I see now you're not. Thanks for taking care of this. EEng (talk) 16:20, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
- Remember in old movies how cops and soldiers would end radio conversations with "Roger wilco"? I suddenly realized the other day that means "Will comply". Over and out. EEng (talk) 05:45, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
- Will do. Hertz1888 (talk) 05:30, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
- Well, that's the actual, formal name, and while I usually care too much about that kind of stuff every time I see "Widener Library" at the head of the article it just seems... inadequate. I can't do the move myself because there's redirect at the target name. As I recall you have the requisite tools for handling that. EEng (talk) 18:25, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
Requested move 29 December 2014
- The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the move request was: not moved. (non-admin closure) -- Calidum 05:12, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
Widener Library → Harry Elkins Widener Memorial Library – See the discussion above the banner. EEng (talk) 09:03, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
- To the discussion in the section just prior to this one, I add that Widener Library is potentially ambiguous since there's another "Widener Library" i.e. the one at Widener University [1]. EEng (talk) 09:03, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose - Quick Google search shows that Harvard and others call it Widener Library [2]. The long official title is not what WP:AT suggests. 2620:0:1000:157D:79A2:22D7:9E57:2A32 (talk) 18:12, 30 December 2014 (UTC)
- A less-quick google search shows that Harvard also calls it "The Harry Elkins Widener Memorial Library", and calls it "Widener Library" in headlines and so on where the full name is awkward, with the full name in the body. [3][4] Obviously we'll find usage of both terms -- both are in common currency and completely recognizable to everyone. As another editor pointed out in the prior thread, by your reasoning the article on the Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority would be titled "The T", nor is the article on the United States Congress called Congress, even though that's what it's almost always called. Where a formal, and an informal, name are both in wide currency we may as well go with the formal (and less ambiguous -- there are other Widener Libraries) name. EEng (talk) 18:39, 30 December 2014 (UTC)
- Typically we would select a more concise common name over an official name. I agree that both are used, but I think the official name is used much less, since it is "awkward" as you note. Also, see Wikipedia:Requested_moves#Malformed_requests and see if you can fix this RM correctly. 2620:0:1000:157D:79A2:22D7:9E57:2A32 (talk) 22:20, 30 December 2014 (UTC)
- Also, the other one you mention is known as "Widener University Library," or officially the "Wolfgram Memorial Library." Not much conflict there. 2620:0:1000:157D:79A2:22D7:9E57:2A32 (talk) 22:24, 30 December 2014 (UTC)
- A less-quick google search shows that Harvard also calls it "The Harry Elkins Widener Memorial Library", and calls it "Widener Library" in headlines and so on where the full name is awkward, with the full name in the body. [3][4] Obviously we'll find usage of both terms -- both are in common currency and completely recognizable to everyone. As another editor pointed out in the prior thread, by your reasoning the article on the Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority would be titled "The T", nor is the article on the United States Congress called Congress, even though that's what it's almost always called. Where a formal, and an informal, name are both in wide currency we may as well go with the formal (and less ambiguous -- there are other Widener Libraries) name. EEng (talk) 18:39, 30 December 2014 (UTC)
You're beginning to convince me, but I'd like to hear from the redoubtable Hertz1888 first. In the meantime, how do you feel about Widener Memorial Library. EEng (talk) 23:39, 30 December 2014 (UTC)
- You called and I am here, having climbed out of my redoubt. Is the question what to call the article rather than Widener Library? I certainly have no objections to either Widener Memorial Library or the full official name (six words including the the), and both are apparently unique and unambiguous. I favor the simpler former over the more cumbersome latter. As Widener Memorial Library already exists as a redirect, swapping it with the current name should be a piece of cake. Hertz1888 (talk) 00:23, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
- Looking at it again in the fresh light of morning, I'm having second thoughts. Widener Library and Harry Elkins Widener Memorial Library both seem familiar and right. But Widener Memorial Library seems odd -- I've looked around and it doesn't seem to be used much (though searching is hobbled by the fact that when you google Widener Memorial Library you unavoidably get Harry Elkins Widener Memorial Library at the same time). So I think the choice is either the full name or the current name. Maybe in an hour I'll change my mind again. EEng (talk) 16:57, 1 January 2015 (UTC) Hertz, thanks for your attention to the image/layout changes. Apparently you're seeing problems in certain browsers. If they continue please be sure to let me know.
- Oppose. Common name is definitely just the Widener Library. -- Necrothesp (talk) 16:12, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
Largest Library?
Is the Widener Library really considered that large? The Harold B. Lee Library at BYU is significantly larger in terms of both amount of materials and shelf-space (as a single library building) than the Widener Library. The Jade Knight 09:46, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
- The current text says it is "among" the largest library buildings. This could refer to floor area, building volume, or (probably most relevant to a library) linear shelf-space. I have no idea what the ranking of library buildings is in linear shelf-space. And I don't know how exactly you would differentiate libraries from archives, some of which must be enormous. If you can find some reliable information, let's use it. If Widener is not among the top 5-10, I agree that "among the largest" is not appropriate. Certainly much of the Harvard College Library content is now in other buildings (Pusey) or off-site. --Macrakis 15:32, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
- Its hard to say what is in "Widener" proper as the stacks are continuous underground with several other Harvard libraries. Some libraries count the storage library as part of their main collection, some don't. But archives can be differentiated,as they dont count volumes, usually not having any, but count by linear feet.
- Our University of Michigan Library article says the the Harlan Hatcher Graduate Library has 3.5 million volumes. The American Library Association show Harvard's as the largest American library system - except the Library of Congress, of course. Amazingly Boston Public Library system is the second largest. Rmhermen 21:00, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
- BYU's main library (single building) had 8½ million items in circulation as of 2005, has 98 miles of shelving, and is 665,000 square feet. In terms of size, that makes it about twice as big as this. The Jade Knight 09:32, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
- BYU does not have 8 million vols, it has 8 million items ; the ARL show it at about 3.6 million vols. Second, it does not have all of them in circulation. If you really want to dispute about wording, and ranking get these sorts of basics correct. DGG 10:25, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
- Our University of Michigan Library article says the the Harlan Hatcher Graduate Library has 3.5 million volumes. The American Library Association show Harvard's as the largest American library system - except the Library of Congress, of course. Amazingly Boston Public Library system is the second largest. Rmhermen 21:00, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Recent Revisions
If the claim that it is among the largest libraries in the world is going to be kept, either a reliable source must be found for this claim, or (less preferable) at least a comparison to other large libraries must be made. The Jade Knight 00:40, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
- Harvard has the highest holdings of any american or canadian research library according to ARL, using "library " to mean the collection of books at a university. Their comparison is enough, and the figures will be added to the article proper. Please use some common sense.
Frankly, it is of very secondary general importance to compare the number of books in a particular building with those in another. I removed that part of the sentence as not worth the discussion. The books in a main library building are generally only a part --sometimes a small part -- of the total holdings of the university. DGG 10:25, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Comment re. images
To avoid my good faith comment being considered a self-imposed "rule" regarding the DYK-worthiness of this article, I'm going to post here. MOS:IMAGELOCATION recommends we "avoid sandwiching text between two images that face each other, or between an image and infobox, navigation template, or similar", a recommendation which the article doesn't currently meet. As I am not familiar enough with the subject or the writers' intended use of the images to trim them myself, I hope that the writers take the time to remove some of the images they consider less important. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 03:28, 3 June 2014 (UTC)
- This was discussed here [5]. EEng (talk) 12:28, 3 June 2014 (UTC)