Talk:Wynonie Harris

Speculation

"Harris' severe alcoholism resulted in his career going into a tailspin in the mid-1950s."

...that seems speculative, since there are other performers who preserved their careers in spite of too much booze. A correlate is not necessarilly a cause. Harris' career might have flagged because of drinking, but than again another (perhaps unknown) cause ruined his career and drove him to drink.

Also, there's a surplus in this article about Harris as genre catalyst and artist influence, but not enough about Harris himself or his music -- almost as though his music would have been less interesting if Elvis et al. had never covered his records. But Harris' best records would still be good even if there never had been an ensuing Rock genre. It's disparaging to treat them as a prequel to others popularity, or view WH as a "failed" commercial success story. His records prove that he was an artistic success, and that's where the focus ought to be. AC 15:48, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

He recorded little after 1956 and nothing after 1960. He did record at least in 1963 a record called "the comeback".

Mistakes

This article is wrought with mistakes. For example: 'His first big solo hit was in 1944 with his record "Who Threw The Whiskey in the Well".' The song was written by De Lange and Brooks and given to Harris to sing by Lucky Millinder while Harris was the singer in Millinder's band. I will clean things up a bit. --Bentonia School 15:27, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I've gone through it and completely revamped it. Have to get the citations up - will do soon. --Bentonia School 00:01, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't think the group that Wynonie's son was in is the same "The Sultans" as the article links to. Shouldn't the link be removed? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.180.241.73 (talk) 03:47, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

Hit Parade Horse Race lead paragraph triviality

(This is a follow-up & partial recap of my 8/19/06 comments, since which the article is much improved. Yet some of the lead paragraph still chafes...)

The current introductory paragraph mentions:

He had 15 Top 10 hits between 1946 and 1952 and is generally recognized as one of rock and roll’s forerunners, with an early influence on Elvis Presley. He was the subject of a 1994 biography by Tony Collins.

All true, but misplaced. Must Hit Parade stats lead a musician article? We don't score and value musicians by numeric popularity. Numbers might make sense if the musician's personal goals and fame rested on having hits and financial success, but otherwise it supports the POV that musicians should be appraised like baseball players. The lead paragraph should say that WH was popular, without statistics.

The bit about being a forerunner of rock n' roll seems judgemental when lead with. A reader wondering "who's he?" might suppose that if not for RnR, Harris should be forgotten. The Elvis mention seems to suggest WH was an inferior roughdraft for the superior EP.

The Tony Collins bio lead mention seems to imply WH would be less noteworthy without that book. Biography articles usually should not lead with the names of the biographers, unless perhaps there's some great biography, like Boswell's Life of Johnson.

Better to move above data lower down in the article, perhaps the Elvis & RnR under an "influence" section, and the chart action under career, and T. Collins should stay in the footnotes. --AC (talk) 06:18, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Popularity with white audiences

Currently the article states (in the Lucky Millinder section) that it was unusual for a black musician to achieve success with white audiences. This is rather misleading. Certainly Louis Armstrong, the Ink Spots, Mills Brothers, Duke Ellington, etc achieved large degrees of popularity with white audiences. This was because of jazz credentials or because they were 'sedate'. What was unusual was for an unadulterated R&B artist to have a large crossover hit with white audiences. I'd like to re-word this paragraph to better reflect this, and would appreciate an elegant way of stating this while maintining the current flow of the paragraph. 78.26 (talk) 20:03, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

Date of Birth

I own a copy of Tony Collins' 1994 book, which is now rare. There is much evidence presented in the book that Harris was born on 8-24-13, two years earlier than claimed. Pretty much every source on the web says 1915 though. It was speculated that 1915 was used to shave a couple years off his age, a common practice in the entertainment industry. I'll hold off on changing anything at the moment. Tidewater 2014 (talk) 14:24, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

@Tidewater 2014: - Am I right in assuming that you never made those edits? See my post below. Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:43, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

That's correct, never made the change because of all the other sources saying '15. Tidewater 2014 (talk) 02:28, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

Birth details

Research by genealogists and blues experts Bob Eagle and Eric LeBlanc, published in Blues: A regional experience (2013, pp.346-347), indicates that he was born Wynonie Hood, probably in Davenport, Iowa (not Nebraska), in 1912 (not 1913 or 1915). They give his parents as Adam and Mallie (or Mollie) Hood, and state that the family moved to Omaha by 1920. In an apparent contradiction which I can't explain, they also state: "His father seems to be Samuel Coleman Hood, working at Rock Island Arsenal in 1918 and residing at Davenport." They go on to state that, by 1930, his mother had married Luther Harris. In a footnote, they say that his death certificate gives his parents as Luther Harris and Mallie Hood.
Although I believe that Eagle and LeBlanc is usually a very reliable source, and certainly worth citing, this information is substantially at variance with most other sources, and with the current text of this article. My own view is that the BARE information should be mentioned in the article as an alternative to the current text - in which the information from his wife and daughter is unreferenced. What do other editors of this article think? Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:38, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

Wow, interesting, and very different from all other sources. I agree it's at least worthy of a footnote, maybe more. We probably should have both the 1912 and 1913 dates referenced. The Tony Collins book also repeats the story of Blue Jay (the Native American) being his father. In the book it said he was brought to see this man when he was a small child and told the equivalent of "that's your father," and he never saw him again. When they say "by 1930," I wonder if that means by the 1930 census. A 1930 date of marriage doesn't seem right, as Wynonie likely wouldn't have changed his surname to Harris if he was already 17 or 18 years old. My copy of the Collins bio is in another state, but I can read the early portion of his life again around the holidays when I get a chance, and see if there's anything else of interest for this discussion. Tidewater 2014 (talk) 03:00, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

I've checked online (via Ancestry.com) some of the records to which Eagle and LeBlanc refer. I think the reference to "Adam" Hood is their simple error, for Sam. I've found the 1920 census entry in Omaha to which they refer. It lists Wynonie Hood, female, aged 7 years and 5 months (hence, born circa July 1912), born in Iowa, the daughter of Sam and Mallie Hood (both parents born in Alabama, both listed as B for black - she was aged 21, he was 32). And they identify Sam Hood with Samuel Coleman Hood, who worked at the Rock Island Arsenal, Davenport, Iowa, in 1918. (Unfortunately for us, it doesn't give his birthplace, and his wife's name is given only as Mrs. Samuel Coleman Hood!) Eagle and LeBlanc imply that the family moved from Iowa to Omaha between 1918 and 1920, and that Mallie was remarried to Luther Harris "by 1930" - which I infer means at some point between 1920 (when Wynonie was 7) and 1930 (when he was 17). So, he could well have changed his name in that decade. Personally, I can't find their 1930 census record. It's odd that Wynonie Hood is listed as female in 1920 - and interesting as well that his mother is aged 21 when he/she is aged 7. Does that support the idea in this article and elsewhere that his mother was young and unmarried when he was born, and perhaps that neither Sam Hood nor Luther Harris were his actual father? It would be good to know what Collins' biography says, and whether it sheds any light on this. Ghmyrtle (talk) 14:19, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

Wow, check this out - http://wvxu.org/post/king-records-celebration-wynonie-harris#stream/0 Wesley Devereaux and Tony Collins interviewed on air about 3 months ago. Near the 23 minute mark, Collins discusses Wynonie's mother’s first marriage to Hood and that he was born in Council Bluffs, Iowa according to the 1920 census. Council Bluffs isn’t too far from Omaha, and Collins says that whether or not Harris was born in Omaha is “open to doubt.” This information was not available to him when he wrote the biography. Though Devereaux has a number of interesting observations, he doesn’t shed much light on where his father was born. Discussing Omaha, Devereaux says “I guess he was born here” at an earlier point. Collins says Harris was not illegitimate, but it’s unclear how he concluded this. Blue Jay is not mentioned. I wonder if Collins discovered that the Blue Jay story was a myth, or if he’s just speculating based on the census records. It’s impossible to tell based on this interview. Birth year is not mentioned either. According to what you discovered on Ancestry, Sam would have been 24-25 when Wynonie was born, and Mallie 13-14. That seems like a large age difference, maybe a socially unacceptable one at the time. So who knows whether or not Hood was his biological father – he very well could have stepped in after. I'll look at the book too in about three weeks to find what made Collins point to a 1913 birth year. Tidewater 2014 (talk) 05:26, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Thanks - fascinating radio show. I hadn't realised that Council Bluffs was so close to Omaha. (I see that Davenport, Iowa, is many miles away, on the other side of the state - the "Sam Hood" identification may be completely unfounded.) I'll be interested to hear what Collins wrote, though it seems clear from what he said that some research (maybe that by Eagle and LeBlanc) provided details that he didn't have when the book was written. By the way, it's interesting that, on the radio show, Collins says that Harris had blue-grey eyes - implying some mixed ancestry. Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:22, 7 December 2016 (UTC)