Talk:Yerevan

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to navigation Jump to search
Former featured article candidateYerevan is a former featured article candidate. Please view the links under Article milestones below to see why the nomination failed. For older candidates, please check the archive.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
August 15, 2012Featured article candidateNot promoted

Etymology[edit]

It is incorrect to refer to the official language of Iran - Persian - as Farsi when writing in English. "Farsi" (an Arabic adaptation of the word "Parsi"), is the indigenous name of the Persian language. Just as the German speaking people refer to their language as 'Deutsch', the Greek 'Ellinika' and the Spanish 'Espanol', the Persians use 'Farsi' or 'Parsi' to identify their native form of verbal communication. Recognising this, it has been Wikipedia's policy (based on Wiki:Correct; Wiki:Verifiability; Wiki:Naming conventions (languages); Wiki:Official names) to consistently use the term Persian (language) instead of Farsi.

Therefore, I will change the following sentence:

"In the late medieval and early modern periods, when Yerevan was under Turkic and later Persian rule the city was known in Farsi as Iravân (Persian: ایروان‎‎)".

To:

"In the late medieval and early modern periods, when Yerevan was under Turkic and later Persian rule, the city was known in Persian as Iravân (Persian: ایروان‎‎)".


Summary:

The word Persian is substituted for Farsi, and a punctuation of comma is added in order to enhance the quality of the sentence.


Thanks, NuturalObserver (talk) 02:01, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

References

Population of Yerevan[edit]

There seems to be an inconsistency between the different sources cited for the populations of Armenian cities on the English-language Wikipedia and I was wondering whether someone could help be resolve the discrepancy. All of the sources come directly from the National Statistical Service of the Republic of Armenia. The Yerevan Wikipedia article cites what appears to be a 2011 census fact sheet ([1] in Armenian) for the de jure population of Yerevan of 1,060,138. This is consistent with the 2011 population census results ([2] in English and [3] in Armenian), which put the 2011 populations as 1,060,138 for "Yerevan community", 121,976 for "Gyumri city", 86,199 for "Vanadzor city", and 46,540 for "Vagharshapat". I will call this the "smaller population estimate". I have seen some other Wikipedia articles cite another 2011 census fact sheet ([4] (p. 20)), which put the 2011 de jure populations at 1,121,900 for Yerevan, 146,100 for Gyumri, 105,000 for Vanadzor, 57,600 for Vagharshapat, etc. I will call this the "larger population estimate". The Wikipedia articles for the larger cities, however, now appear to cite an Armenian Statistical Service demographic handbook that has a somewhat older version of the "larger population estimate" ([5] in Armenian and English), although the articles sometimes cite a "2011 population" that is not actually found in that document. The "larger population estimate" also seems to have been picked up for use in Arthur Tsutsiev's new book Atlas of the Ethno-Political History of the Caucasus (2014). Tsutsiev cites an Armenian Statistical Service document ([6] in Armenian) for the 2012 populations of Armenian cities: 1,129,300 for Yerevan, 145,700 for Gyumri, 104,800 for Vanadzor, and 57,800 for Vagharshapat. Further complicating matters, I found two similar-looking spreadsheets from the Armenian Statistical Service that report incompatible figures. One ([7] in English) has the "larger population estimate" with 2011 de jure populations of 1,121,933 for Yerevan, 146,122 for Gyumri, 104,998 for Vanadzor, 57,622 for Vagharshapat, etc. Another ([8] in English) has the "smaller population estimate" with 2011 de jure populations of 1,060,138 for Yerevan, 121,976 for Gyumri, 86,199 for Vanadzor, 46,540 for Vagharshapat, etc. Does anyone have any idea of what is going on here? I cannot read Armenian and I do not understand the nuances of Armenian administrative divisions, so it is hard for me to figure this out. My guess is that the "larger" figures are simply estimates and the "smaller" estimates are official results of the 2011 census, but I haven't been able to prove that. Either way, there is an inconsistency between Wikipedia articles because the Yerevan article uses the smaller estimate and the Gyumri, Vanadzor, and Vagharshapat articles (and perhaps others) use the larger estimate. I suspect that several of the Wikipedia articles need to be updated with correctly-sourced population figures. Ketone16 (talk) 16:45, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Also, when I look at the results of the 2001 census a decade earlier ([9]), I find the following de jure populations: 1,103,488 for Yerevan, 150,917 for Gyumri, 107,394 for Vanadzor, 56,388 for Vagharshapat, etc. These figures are closer to the "larger" population figures in 2011. So, I guess my questions are: 1) which set of population figures is correct (official) for 2011, and 2) if the smaller set of figures is correct for 2011, then why are the numbers so much lower than the 2001 numbers? Is it because people left all of the major Armenian cities, or because of some change in census methodology like the use of different administrative boundaries? Ketone16 (talk) 15:08, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
The Armenian National Statistical Service accounts the population of Armenia in two categories. 1) The "smaller population estimate", which they call de facto population is exactly what they call it. It is the exact number of people present in Armenia at the time on the census. 2) The "larger population estimate" (de jure) also includes people who are temporarily residing abroad. This group particularly includes seasonal migrant workers (mostly in Russia). In Armenia, people are registered by address and their address actually appears on passports. So to sum up, the de jure (i.e. "larger") population includes people who live in Armenia "legally", meaning they're registered in Armenia, but might live in Armenia only for a few months a year. For all purposes, I'm inclined to use the the smaller (de facto) number, although this can be debated. --Երևանցի talk 04:51, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
I think I already accounted for this: all of the numbers I quoted above should be de jure populations, which seem to be referenced more widely in publications than the de facto populations. There is a discrepancy within the set of de jure populations themselves that is visible by comparing some of the files cited above. The question of whether to use de jure (permanently present + temporarily absent) or de facto (permanently present + temporarily present) populations in Wikipedia articles is a good one; I don't know whether Wikipedia editors have settled on some guideline for this. Ketone16 (talk) 13:18, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
Yes, my mistake. I completely misunderstood you. You are, most likely, correct that the "larger" figures are from the annual estimates by the agency, while the "smaller" figures (both for 2011) are the official results of the 2011 census. This is nothing new. The same is true for the US. The US Census Bureau makes a number of estimations every year (American Community Survey), including the years when censuses are taken. There is always a huge discrepancy between the estimates and the census results. --Երևանցի talk 01:30, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
Makes sense. Would you recommend changing all the populations in the other Wikipedia articles (Gyumri, Vanadzor, Vagharshapat, etc.), to use the "smaller" figures, or do we need further confirmation that these are the best figures to use? Ketone16 (talk) 05:35, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
I personally prefer the smaller number because it is more closer to the reality. And is not the de facto number what other countries' statistical agencies take into account? I don't know we should be bold and go ahead change all the numbers. I wish more people would've joined this discussion. --Երևանցի talk 23:16, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
I wasn't sure which figure is closer to reality. I don't know whether de facto or de jure populations are preferred generally. It seems that the United Nations prefers de jure populations for Armenia. . . ?
A contrary statement is found in the 2013 United Nations Demographic Yearbook (p. 5): "As far as possible, the population statistics presented in the tables of the Demographic Yearbook refer to the de facto population." See also the 2011 de facto population cited for Armenia on p. 59. I don't know why the UN database I mentioned above uses de jure populations for Armenia -- maybe it's easier to use de jure populations when trying to maintain consistency among estimates throughout the between-census years? Ketone16 (talk) 16:17, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

SHENGAVIT settlement _ 3000 BC[edit]

Why don't you mention SHENGAVIT settlement ??? The Shengavit Settlement is an archaeological site in present day Yerevan, Armenia located on a hill south-east of Lake Yerevan. It was inhabited during a series of settlement phases from approximately 3200 BC cal to 2500 BC cal in the Kura Araxes (Shengavitian) Period of the Early Bronze Age and irregularly re-used in the Middle Bronze Age until 2200 BC cal. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shengavit_Settlement — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.157.218.33 (talk) 21:48, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Timeline of Yerevan[edit]

What is missing from the city timeline? Please add relevant content. Thank you. -- M2545 (talk) 11:37, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

An alternative year of founding is given In Don Juan of Persia - A Shi-Ah Catholic 1560-1604, Edited by Sir E. Denison Ross and Eileen Power, Translated and Edited by G. Le Strange, Published by Harper & Brothers (New York and London), First Published in 1926. In Notes to Book II Chapter VIII, note 3 reads: ...The town [Erivan] was founded in the reign of Shah Isma'il I by Rivan Khan, otherwise Erivan, who gave it his name, and it was then the frontier fortress of Persia against Georgia... (Hammer-Purgstall, IV, p86). Here, Hammer-Purgstall refers to Joseph von Hammer-Purgstall's Geschichte des osmanischen Reiches (Pest, 1827) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jbrosenasad (talkcontribs) 02:37, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

External links modified[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 4 external links on Yerevan. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add {{cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.

As of February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{sourcecheck}} (last update: 15 July 2018).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers. —cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 23:38, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Orphaned references in Yerevan[edit]

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Yerevan's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "iranica":

  • From History of Iran: O.Özgündenli, "Persian Manuscripts in Ottoman and Modern Turkish Libraries", Encyclopædia Iranica, Online Edition, (LINK)
  • From Ottoman Empire: Özgündenli, O. "Persian Manuscripts in Ottoman and Modern Turkish Libraries". Encyclopaedia Iranica (online ed.).
  • From Armenian Genocide: "Jamalzadeh, Mohammad-Ali". Encyclopædia Iranica.
  • From Delhi: Rafati, V.; Sahba, F. (1989). "Bahai temples". Encyclopædia Iranica.
  • From Erivan Khanate: Hewsen, Robert H. and George Bournoutian. "Erevan." Encyclopedia Iranica. Accessed January 3, 2009.

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT 01:29, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

Location of Mt. Ararat[edit]

Although Mount Ararat is mentioned many times in the article there is no referral to its location. One could think it is located in Armenia wrongly. It should be stated in the article clearly. Thanks Abbatai 06:20, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

It is actually mentioned only four times, all in the context of it being visible from Yerevan. I don't see a need to have content here detailing its location - the Mount Ararat article does that. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 23:03, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
"Being visible" has nothing to do with being in Turkey or Armenia. It can be in Armenia and visible from Yerevan as well. It is misleading if we do not include where it is located. Thanks Abbatai 10:39, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
we have a separate article on that subject. Lkahd (talk) 09:02, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
What do you mean?--Abbatai 19:38, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

I too don't think its necessary to mention that Ararat is in Turkey. If people really want to know where it's located, they're free to click on the Wikilink and discover it. Étienne Dolet (talk) 20:55, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

Why shouldn't we simply say its location to avoid any confusion that Mt. Ararat is in Armenia and visiting another page? Is the location of the Mt. scareword something in this article?--Abbatai 11:05, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

I don't see any problem mentioning Turkey as the location of Ararat. It shouldn't be controversial. --Երևանցի talk 16:14, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

Armenian language[edit]

The Armenian language has two primary dialects - Eastern and Western. Eastern Armenian is spoken primarily in Armenia, Russia, Georgia, and Iran. The other major populations of Armenians around the world are speakers of the Western dialect. These nations include the U.S., France, UK, Germany, Brasil, and Argentina among many others. In the current day and age, the two dialects use different spellings for various words, and many times completely different words for the same topic. Eastern Armenian has been highly permeated by the Russian language while Western Armenian and Krapar (Classic Armenian) have not. Also, the Eastern Armenian alphabet has been modified at various times under Russian and Soviet rule, with various letters being modified or completely removed to "Russify" the language.

I, on various wikipages, have added the Western Armenian spelling to the pages, as it is relevant to proper understanding of the Armenian language. Listing only one dialect (Eastern) as the language Armenian (hy) is dishonest and disingenuous. It provides an incorrect understanding of the language. My edits are providing a greater understanding - is this not what we are all here to do?

The arguments from two wikiusers are that Western Armenian is not the official language of Armenia (neither is Eastern Armenian - Armenian is the official language) or that Eastern is more widely spoken (which is in fact false). Since when do either of these reasons negate the relevance of a language? And, since when do false arguments hold weight? HyeSK (talk) 09:31, 8 August 2016 (UTC)HyeSK

Unlike you attempt at adding Western Armenian spelling for Gyumri, I can see a case here for Yerevan, as the capital of Armenia and as a very long-established settlement, having this alternative spelling. But it already did have this alternative! Your editing is not adding a new spelling variant but changing the terminology used to describe that variant: altering "Classical Armenian" to "Western Armenian". Why are you wanting this change? Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 22:46, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

This is why I wish people had more knowledge of the language AND history. Gyumri's dialect is that of Western Armenian. This page actually did NOT have the Western spelling, I added it and Yerevantsi had a heart attack over it, then changed it to "classic spelling". Western Armenian is a more widely spoken dialect which uses this spelling and if we are making an honest Wikipedia, it would be most proper to use "Western Armenian" over "Classical Armenian". Also, you must understand Western Armenian speakers will search for these places with the Western Armenian spelling. HyeSK (talk) 10:13, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

Sorry, I had not realized that this content (on this article) has been argued about since may, or earlier. Regarding your point about the search - this is the English language Wikipedia so it is unlikely that anyone will search using "Երեւան", and anyway "Երեւան" seems to automatically default into a search for "Երևան" since the results for "Երեւան" lists articles that do not have Yerevan as "Երեւան" in their content. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 21:25, 12 August 2016 (UTC)
No problem at all. I rather enjoy your mature approach to the issue - I wish more were like you. So, nonetheless, it is still a valid and relevant spelling. Answer me this, what is it hurting? Are you able to tell me how this takes away from the page, or decreases the validity of the page? I happen to believe it only adds to these points.HyeSK (talk) 22:24, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

Religion section[edit]

The Religion section needed some copy editing so I went ahead with it. Some of the writing and style confused me (such as a church being consecrated in 2010 but not finished until 2013). I tried to keep most of the section intact. If someone can improve on what I did please do so. Foreignshore (talk) 21:59, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

Revision 753023729 by 92slim[edit]

As far I know, we add all "Etymology" theories we hear on Wikipedia. Turkish Language Association is not a random thing. Please revert your edit. Beshogur (talk) 20:39, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

Okay, so how does that source claim the Yerevan comes from Revan again? Étienne Dolet (talk) 21:11, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
No, it's just the usage in Ottoman Turkish language. AFAIK, Revan has been used for long times under Turks, also Ottoman Empire. I can't understand why some Armenian users keep adding irrelevant Armenian names on Turkish majority cities while it's "forbidden" to add an info about Erivan's Turkish/Ottoman usage in the Etymology section? Yerevan had before a significant Azerbaijani Turkish population according Russian Empire census. So? Beshogur (talk) 22:36, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
Because Yerevan was used long before the arrival of the Turks from Central Asia. Remember, Turks came later. Armenians were in those lands first. Étienne Dolet (talk) 03:18, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
That's not the point. The point is it's been confirmed that the word doesn't originate from Revan because all sources point out it was called Erebuni (in older languages) before Armenians even existed; so no, there is no basis for any other theories. --92slim (talk) 00:43, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

Yerevan/Irevan/Revan link. An alternative year of founding of Yerevan and alternative etymology are given In Don Juan of Persia - A Shi-Ah Catholic 1560-1604, Edited by Sir E. Denison Ross and Eileen Power, Translated and Edited by G. Le Strange, Published by Harper & Brothers (New York and London), First Published in 1926. In Notes to Book II Chapter VIII, note 3 reads: ...The town [Erivan] was founded in the reign of Shah Isma'il I by Rivan Khan, otherwise Erivan, who gave it his name, and it was then the frontier fortress of Persia against Georgia... (Hammer-Purgstall, IV, p86). Here, Hammer-Purgstall refers to Joseph von Hammer-Purgstall's Geschichte des osmanischen Reiches (Pest, 1827). So, the book (which is a translation of another book published in 1604 in Spain, asserts that Yerevan is derived from Irevan, which itself is derived from Rivan (Revan) khan's name[1]. The Shi'Ah Catholic was a Persian Diplomat/Official by the name of Uruch beg who converted to Catholicism while on a diplomatic mission to Europe.

External links modified[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 8 external links on Yerevan. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

As of February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{sourcecheck}} (last update: 15 July 2018).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 15:55, 21 May 2017 (UTC)

photographs[edit]

love the historical photos and sketches in this article! Johnscotaus (talk) 03:29, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

External links modified[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 7 external links on Yerevan. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

As of February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{sourcecheck}} (last update: 15 July 2018).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 19:26, 2 December 2017 (UTC)

External links modified (January 2018)[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 9 external links on Yerevan. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

As of February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{sourcecheck}} (last update: 15 July 2018).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 03:01, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

Image from this article to appear as POTD soon[edit]

Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that File:Mount Ararat and the Yerevan skyline.jpg will be appearing as picture of the day on 29 September 2018. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2018-09-29. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page. Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 13:09, 21 September 2018 (UTC)

Yerevan
Yerevan is the capital and largest city of Armenia, and one of the world's oldest continuously inhabited cities. It was founded as the Erebuni Fortress in 782 BC by King Argishti I of Urartu, who designed it as his capital. By the late ancient Armenian Kingdom, however, new capital cities were established and Yerevan declined in importance. It was revived in 1582 when it was taken over by the Ottoman Turks, who were in conflict with Iran. The city changed hands multiple times from 1604 to the 1720s, when Iran emerged victorious. In 1827 it was taken over by Russia. After a brief spell as capital of independent Armenia from 1920, it fell under Soviet rule, before emerging as capital of the modern republic in 1991. The city became an important industrial centre under Soviet rule, and is now Armenia's primary political and cultural hub.

This picture shows Yerevan with Mount Ararat, which dominates the skyline and is a national symbol.Photograph: Serouj.

citation[edit]

for Voskan Yerevantsi (17th century), printer - see https://www.google.com/books/edition/Historical_Dictionary_of_Armenia/QS-vSjHObOYC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=yerevan+Voskan+Yerevantsi&pg=PA300&printsec=frontcover

for Simeon I see https://www.google.com/books/edition/Historical_Dictionary_of_Armenia/QS-vSjHObOYC?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=Simeon%20I%20of%20Yerevan%20i

for Khachatur Abovian see https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Armenians/cEL-CuhdWU4C?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Khachatur+Abovian&pg=PA143&printsec=frontcover -- Pealkelly (talk) 21:31, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

Azerbaijani name[edit]

The editors added an Armenian name to the Shusha page. Because once there was an Armenian majority in Shusha. I think we should add the name of Azerbaijan to this page. Because until 1873 there was an Azerbaijani majority. Thanks! EljanM (TALK) 18:02, 13 December 2020

there has been several discussions and consensus about this, things are fine the way they are. - Kevo327 (talk) 22:27, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
Kevo327, no one said that another discussion can't be opened. Also, you've got to link those discussions and said consensuses. --► Sincerely: SolaVirum 00:45, 24 January 2021 (UTC)
@Solavirum:, @CuriousGolden:, @Parishan:, @AntonSamuel: Guys we should add "Irevan" to this page. EljanM (TALK) 10:54, 24 January 2021
@Solavirum:, @CuriousGolden:, @Parishan:, @AntonSamuel: Do you agree with me? EljanM (TALK) 06:14, 25 January 2021

I don't want to take a part in this discussion (for now at least). But others are free to do so. --► Sincerely: SolaVirum 06:49, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

@CuriousGolden:, @Parishan:, @AntonSamuel: Please join the discussion. EljanM (TALK) 19:03, 26 January 2021
EljanM As per WP:POINT, Wikipedia cannot be 100 percent consistent. As such, if you have concerns about names on other articles (ie. Shusha), it should be discussed on the corresponding talk page. If you have a particular concern with this article, you should clearly state your suggestions from an WP:NPOV perspective and provide academic sources to back-up your recommendation(s), per WP:RS. Should other editors wish to participate in a discussion, that is their choice as Wikipedia is WP:NOTCOMPULSORY. Finally, this talk page is not your WP:SOAPBOX or a WP:NOTFORUM so please stop with such tactics. Archives908 (talk) 19:47, 26 January 2021 (UTC)
I support using names that peoples who had historic majority in cities used in modern history. We've done this in several places including Nakhchivan and Shusha, so it'd only make sense to do it for Yerevan as well. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 19:36, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

When it comes to alternative names for geographic places, to identify an alternative name as "significant" and therefore prudent to include in the lead according to Wikipedia guidelines as I understand them (MOS:LEADALT/WP:OTHERNAMES/WP:NCPLACE), the requirement is that it's either used by at least 10% of the English-language sources referencing the place, or that it can be shown that it's the prevailing term used by a significant diaspora community from the specific place. Can you display that "Irevan/İrəvan" as a specific alternative name fulfill either of those criteria?

Looking at the existing Etymology section regarding the history of the name "Yerevan" and its versions/variations/spellings/transliterations (Erevan/Erivan/Эривань/Iravân/ایروان/İrəvan), the article identifies the name Yerevan as Urartian/Armenian in origin, and goes into the linguistic and historical context of the name "Iravan" quite extensively, identifying it as Persian in origin originally (Iravân/ایروان), and mentioning that the Azerbaijani name (İrəvan) is a version of this name/transliteration that was used for the city during Turkic and Persian rule and that it is used by Azerbaijanis (not clear if this is from direct diaspora groups or regarding Azerbaijani society and government in general):

In the late medieval and early modern periods, when Yerevan was under Turkic and later Persian rule, the city was known in Persian as Iravân (Persian: ایروان‎). This name is still widely used by Azerbaijanis (Azerbaijani: İrəvan). The city was officially known as Erivan (Russian: Эривань) under Russian rule during the 19th and early 20th centuries. The city was renamed back to Yerevan (Ереван) in 1936.[2] Up until the mid-1970s the city's name was spelled Erevan, more often than Yerevan, in English sources.[3][4]

As the alternative names are so many - I would say that going by the relevant aforementioned Wikipedia guidelines, that unless it can be shown that one is more relevant/prevalent than the others and therefore should be included in the lead, the current status quo may be more appropriate with regard to readability: MOS:LEADALT "The editor needs to balance the desire to maximize the information available to the reader with the need to maintain readability.", WP:OTHERNAMES/WP:NCPLACE: "If there are three or more alternative names – including alternative spellings, longer or shorter forms, historic names, and significant names in other languages – or there is something notable about the names themselves, a separate name section is recommended.",

AntonSamuel (talk) 19:42, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

@AntonSamuel: Just to clarify, are you asking for proof that this name is still widely used among Azerbaijanis from Armenia and Azerbaijanis in general? — CuriousGolden (T·C) 19:49, 26 January 2021 (UTC)
It would be prudent that sources are presented backing up the assertion that an alternative name fulfills one of the two aforementioned criteria, yes. With regard to the amount of alternative names for Yerevan (8+) however, for this specific article - it may be more appropriate that the names are presented in the Etymology section instead of the lead in order to avoid clutter and retain readability, if I understand the guidelines correctly. AntonSamuel (talk) 20:02, 26 January 2021 (UTC)
The current lead only features an Armenian translation and one alternative name, everything else is in an efn, so I don't see how this is any different than the case for Nakhchivan or other cities in Azerbaijan with Armenian translation or how in any way it's going to make it "cluttered". And since we've put the Armenian names for cities in Azerbaijan for lead and for some, even in the infobox, it'd only make sense to do the same for Azerbaijani names for cities in Armenia.
"Irevan" or "Iravan" are both still widely used in Azerbaijan and among Azerbaijani refugees from Armenia & Yerevan. It's also still used in English scholar circles. For example, "Irevan" (with "Armenia" as well to only allow English-language sources) gives 217 results, while "Iravan" gives 126 results on Google Scholars. To prove local use, the Google search for " "Yerevan" "Ermənistan" " gives only 238,000 results, while " "İrəvan" "Ermənistan" " gives 606,000. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 20:06, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

Then it seems that the 10% criterion at least, is not fulfilled for "Irevan" or "Iravan" as "Yerevan Armenia" gives 66,200 results on Google Scholar: [10]

Regarding the other criterion, specific sources describing the present Azerbaijani Yerevan diasporic group as an existing cohesive unit utilizing "Irevan" would be prudent to present. Then it would be clear that it is a significant alternative name as WP:NCGN states that "Relevant foreign language names (one used by at least 10% of sources in the English language or that is used by a group of people which used to inhabit this geographical place" are appropriate to include in the lead.

However, it would also be good to present a reasonable argument based on Wikipedia policy/guidelines as to why the Azerbaijani name would be preferable over the historic Persian name which it derives from. I'm not completely sure to what extent the guidelines takes the historicity of the names into consideration, and the issue of readability may in the end also warrant the listing of the names in a separate Etymology/Toponomy section, as Yerevan has so many alternative names. WP:NCGN states with regard to the lead section that "Alternatively, all alternative names can be listed and explained in a "Names" or "Etymology" section immediately following the lead, or a special paragraph of the lead; it is recommended to have such a section if there are at least three alternate names, or there is something notable about the names themselves.", "Where there is such a section, the article's first line should have only a link to the section, phrased, for example: "(known also by several alternative names)". When there are several significant alternate names, the case for mentioning the names prominently is at least as strong as with two. As an exception, a local official name different from a widely accepted English name should be both in such separate section and in the lead, in the form "(Foreign language: Local name; known also by several alternative names)"."

As a relevant example, the Istanbul article may be a good place to find relevant discussions and solutions as it also has many historic/alternative names, however I haven't looked into this case more thoroughly however, so other articles may be more relevant. AntonSamuel (talk) 20:27, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

@AntonSamuel:, @CuriousGolden: According to the Azerbaijani version, the toponym Yerevan was formed on the basis of the Turkish ethnonym "ir", which means "man", "brave" in Turkish, and the word "avan", which means "country", "land", "village", "city". "means. At different times it was the center of Chukursad province, Iravan khanate, Iravan province. We added armenian name to Shusha. Becuase Armenians were majority only in 34 years (1886-1920). You also added Armenian name to Nakhchivan, Armenians were not the majority there. But you dont add Azerbaijani name to Irevan/Yerevan. More than 100 years, Azerbaijanis were majority in Irevan/Yerevan. Is that equality? (TALK) 11:40, 27 December 2021
The etymology of Yerevan/Iravan you've presented seems pretty implausible/shady to me from a cursory view, and is in direct contradiction to the present sourced Etymology section on this page. Considering the historical negationism of Armenian history by Azerbaijan as official government policy, it would be prudent to utilize reliable sources backing up arguments that the current Etymology of Yerevan present on this page would be incorrect/incomplete. There was a long discussion regarding Shushi/Shusha, and I believe I showed how "Shushi" meets the aforementioned criteria for a significant alternative name. The Armenian name on the Nakhchivan article wasn't added by me, but has been present on the article for quite a while. I did however revert an unexplained removal of the name. If you have concerns regarding the names in the lede for that article, bring them up on that article's talk page. It's also useful to check if a previous debate has taken place and what evidence and which arguments were presented then. The South Caucasus is a complicated region, and each city, town and village pretty much has its own historical context. AntonSamuel (talk) 11:56, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
@AntonSamuel: There is no equality. Armenian names were added to the cities of Azerbaijan, which were once majority Armenians. However, Azerbaijani names were not added to the cities in Armenia, which were once majority Azerbaijanis. EljanM (TALK) 12:11, 27 January 2021
Azerbaijani names for Armenian villages with historical Azerbaijani populations are present, for example for the Shurnukh and Goghtanik articles. I've explained pretty extensively at this point regarding what is likely to be prudent for the alternative names for Yerevan with regard to Wikipedia guidelines. AntonSamuel (talk) 12:16, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
I said cities, not villages. EljanM (TALK) 12:19, 27 January 2021

For other cities/towns in Armenia, you're welcome to open up discussions (on those talk pages) regarding Azerbaijani place names and if they can be considered to be significant alternative names which should be included in the lede. The past majority/minority figures for the Nagorno-Karabakh towns and villages and their articles have been useful as a template to work from with regard to neutrality and balance as it is historically and presently a heavily contested/disputed region, and simple Google searches for the different names have been useful to help determine common names, as many smaller villages lack any reliable English-language sources mentioning them at all, but I don't believe Wikipedia guidelines directly mention past majority/minority figures as a criteria to work from in itself, while it may be relevant for the historical context and would point to a likelihood that enough reliable English-language sources would mention them. AntonSamuel (talk) 12:31, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

I am saying again. We must add Azerbaijani name to Iravan/Yerevan. I showed etymology of Iravan. I showed all facts about "Iravan". I am saying again, there is no equality. EljanM (TALK) 12:47, 27 January 2021
I believe that I've responded enough to these arguments at this point, you're now repeating the same arguments without taking any of the responses into consideration. You can ping an administrator if you want further input. AntonSamuel (talk) 12:55, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
In short, in your opinion, Armenian names can be in the cities located in Azerbaijan, but Azerbaijani names cannot be in the cities located in Armenia. Thank you very much! EljanM (TALK) 13:01, 27 January 2021
That is not my personal opinion or what I've called for, no. Please direct further arguments to matters about the case, instead of about me as an editor. AntonSamuel (talk) 13:04, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
I have always opposed all injustices. I am sorry if I offended you. EljanM (TALK) 13:08, 27 January 2021
@CuriousGolden:, @Solavirum: Guys, you are an editor. You must participate in the discussion. EljanM (TALK) 13:23, 27 January 2021
[[User:|]], we are free to do whatever we wish. We're volunteer editors. Also, AntonSamuel, did I get it right, or did you wanted sources to prove that İrəvan is a widely used name for the city? --► Sincerely: SolaVirum 13:27, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
EljanM The tone of your demands is edging dangerously close to WP:POVPUSH at this point. Archives908 (talk) 13:38, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

@Solavirum: Since "Iravan"/"Irevan" does not seem to fulfill the first 10% criteria for significant alternative names, I've explained in detail above what I believe would be prudent to do/display if it is to be argued that it fulfills the second criteria, and with regard to readability, to show why the Azerbaijani version should be favored over the Persian transliteration which it derives from. AntonSamuel (talk) 13:33, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

@Solavirum:, @AntonSamuel:, @Archives908: The name of the city of Iravan is mentioned in historical sources as Ravan. Etymologically, there are various legends about the root. According to the Azerbaijani version accepted by world scholars, the toponym Iravan is based on the Turkish ethnonym "ir", which means "man", "brave" in Turkish, and the word "avan", which means "country", "land", "village", "city". formed and means "land of the brave". At different times it was the center of Chukursad province, Iravan khanate, Iravan province. I think I have provided enough information about the etymology of Iravan. EljanM (TALK) 14:12, 27 January 2021
I don't see any problem with the additions of Persian, Azerbaijani, and Turkish alternatives for the city's name. For much of the late middle ages and early modern period, the city was called "Iravan" and "Revan". And I can provide lots of RS on that if required. --► Sincerely: SolaVirum 14:15, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
Please check more thoroughly to see what the second criteria requires above (an existing Azerbaijani Yerevan diaspora community utilizing the name Iravan). Regarding readability, when there are more than three alternative names, it is prudent to put them all in a Etymology section following the lede, while an exception is made for a local official name - and possibly for some other cases, I pointed to Istanbul's use of Constantinople and Byzantium in the lede as an example and where relevant discussions and solutions can be found, since there are many other alternative names for the city as well. AntonSamuel (talk) 14:23, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
I'm looking for the source that meets explicitly what you're saying, but until that I'll respond to the other argument. It's obvious why Azerbaijani should be favoured over Persian. The city had Azerbaijani-majority until the for at least a century, ending in early 20th century (similar to Shusha but vice-versa), meaning it had Azerbaijani-majority in at least some part of its modern history. The name's origin is simply irrelevant when discussing what language is supposed to be there. A ton of cities/villages have names originating from Persian, Arabic, Turkish, even though that settlement had nothing to do with the said ethnicity. So, the only thing we need here is a proof that Azerbaijanis from Armenia favour the word Irevan over Yerevan, which in itself is obvious, but I'll find try to find a source for it when I'm free. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 14:24, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
@Solavirum: Absolutely! Iravan/Yerevan is important for both countries as Shusha and Nakhchivan. We must add Azerbaijani names to cities of Armenia, which Azerbaijanis were majority there as well as we must add Armenian names to cities of Azerbaijan, which there were majority Armenians there. Thanks! EljanM (TALK) 14:29, 27 January 2021

As the same arguments that aren't based on Wikipedia guidelines/policy with regard to place names and significant alternative names seem to pop up repeatedly without proper consideration to the responses that have been provided so far, I would suggest that you guys start an RfC if you want to change the status quo with regard to the lede and the Etymology section of this article, as it then seems that the format of a normal discussion isn't sufficient anymore. AntonSamuel (talk) 14:31, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

Not sure what part of adding a relevant name isn't "based on guidelines". This case is almost identical to the Shusha case and we're in the almost exact, but vice versa roles in this discussion, so I'm not sure why you're now opposing the guidelines you supported in another discussion. As you rightfully mentioned in Talk:Shusha#Armenian_name_in_the_info-box some time ago, "The removal/marginalization of the place names of minority/past majority nationalities is also not standard on Wikipedia articles, for example - the articles for Turkish cities such as Van, Muş and Kars that historically had significant Armenian communities or majorities before the Armenian Genocide feature the Armenian names and the İzmir/Smyrna and Trabzon articles features the Greek names in the introduction/infoboxes." Correct way of resolving disputes would be to request a third opinion first and if that doesn't work, try a Dispute Resolution and then an RfC. Perhaps @Ymblanter:, an admin who is knowledgable in this topic can help us out. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 14:46, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
I welcome input from Ymblanter. Then main issue that has yet to be resolved in contrast with Shusha/Shushi is that it hasn't been shown (yet) that the alternative name "Iravan"/"Irevan" meets one of the relevant criteria and with regard to the issue of readability, because of the multitude of alternative/historical names for Yerevan, why - by pointing at a relevant Wikipedia guideline/policy - it is prudent to highlight one name over the others. I suggested Istanbul as a useful example article with possible relevant past discussions about the various alternative names that exists for the city. AntonSamuel (talk) 14:52, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
I've already stated above that I'll try to find source for it when I have free time, even though it's pretty obvious, but that wasn't what we were discussing here. From what I understood, you seemed to imply that since the Azerbaijani name derived from Persian, we should have the Persian name and not Azerbaijani. I provided a sound argument against not including Azerbaijani name above. Unless your comment above my previous one wasn't a reply to me, then what we were arguing about seems to have changed. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 14:57, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

I also welcome input from @Ymblanter: and I agree Golden's opinion. Anton, You're opposing the guidelines you supported in another discussions (For example: Shusha and villages of Nagorno-Karabakh). EljanM (TALK) 15:04, 27 January 2021

In my view, the arguments that have been presented so far have not properly referred to the relevant Wikipedia guidelines to make the case for the inclusion of Irevan/Iravan in the lede, and I'm asked to respond to similar arguments repeatedly without the past explanations being properly taken into account. As far as I can see, an Azerbaijani-majority population for the city in 1830 in itself is not necessarily something that warrants the inclusion of the name in the lede with regard to the relevant Wikipedia guidelines, while it may be relevant and point towards possible usage in reliable English-language sources. An argument that relies on Wikipedia guidelines needs to be presented as was done for Shushi/Shusha. I don't want to continue an endless back-and-forth discussion, so I'll let Ymblanter and other editors chime in instead regarding the matter and if an RfC would be warranted, since this issue concerns a high-profile article - the capital of Armenia. AntonSamuel (talk) 15:23, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
Please check your arguments on Shusha's talk page. Now you're talking on the contrary. EljanM (TALK) 15:41, 27 January 2021
Kevo327, Armatura, Steverci, Laurel Lodged you all dabble in Armenia-related articles, your thoughts on this? Regards, Archives908 (talk) 15:09, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
Can both of you not canvass? If you want more editors to join in, then leave a notice at a wikiproject, don't ping individual people that you know will take your side. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 15:44, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
Ok. I deleted. EljanM (TALK) 15:49, 27 January 2021
Why didn't you tell that to EljanM when he pinged several editors, including you, and even told them what to support? --Steverci (talk) 16:17, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
He pinged editors from both sides in his edits. Engaging in whataboutism won't help us. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 16:24, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
I deleted, because I knew my false. But Archives908 didn't delete yet. EljanM (TALK) 16:31, 27 January 2021

Strong oppose The Armenian name Shushi is in the article because of the Nagorno-Karabakh Autonomous Oblast. Not only has Yerevan never been an autonomous region, but it has never been part of an Azeri state in history. Azeris were only briefly the majority in Yerevan because the Persians deported the Armenian population. That's not notable enough to include an alternate name. --Steverci (talk) 16:17, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

@Steverci: First, look at what we wrote. I wrote all the truth here. We wrote everything, including the etymology of Iravan ;) EljanM (TALK) 16:27, 27 January 2021

CuriousGolden please spare us from your WP:BRICKS. EljanM pinged multiple users 3-4 times (in several consecutive days) throughout this conversation and demanded responses that support his request. Oddly enough, he pinged certain editors that he may very well have known would support him. Hmmm seems like quite the double-standard. Archives908 (talk) 16:32, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

Furthermore CuriousGolden, kindly refrain from jumping to conclusions about how other editors may or may not respond based on nothing more then your assumption, WP:NOSPADE can be a useful refresher. Archives908 (talk) 16:32, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
@Archives908: If you have a problem with me. Please write to my talk box. We are discussing Azerbaijani name of Iravan/Yerevan. There is a serious process going on here EljanM (TALK) 16:37, 27 January 2021
I've already responded to EljanM's similar behaviour in Talk:Shusha, there'd be no use of me repeating it. Unlike you, he retracted his pings when I asked him (& you) not to canvass. I didn't warn you or attack you, this was a request to not break a policy, so please lower your tone. And please, as a personal request, don't ping me unless it's related to the actual topic we're discussing. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 16:38, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
I was responding to your comment, which I have every right to do so. I never once said you "attacked" me- that is a serious accusation and far from constructive. I ask that you please assume WP:GF in editors and stop with the double-standards. Archives908 (talk) 16:55, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
If were done with this, I'd like to get back to the conversation at hand. I agree with the logic presented by AntonSamuel, as well as, the rationale presented by Steverci above. I propose to maintain the current status-quo of the article. Archives908 (talk) 16:55, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
No. We dont agree with status-quo, because there is no equality. There are armenian names in Nakhchivan and Shusha, but there isn't Azerbaijani name in Iravan/Yerevan. And what you wrote here is completely contradictory to what you wrote on the Shusha talk page. EljanM (TALK) 17:21, 27 January 2021
Other stuff exists on Wikipedia. You seem unable to grasp that simply because the Armenian name (and please capitalize it from herein) exists on those pages doesn't meant we have to reciprocate the same process here or on other articles. As others have said, this was brought up years earlier, the consensus was that the name should be left out, and the foregoing discussion in this section shows that that consensus has not changed. There's good faith arguments, and then there's this. Let's move on to a more productive use of our times. Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 18:52, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
This thread won't go anywhere without mediators. --► Sincerely: SolaVirum 03:52, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

EljanM has since been blocked due to repeated canvassingMaidyouneed (talk) 02:13, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 20 January 2021[edit]

An alternative etymology and year of founding are given in Don Juan of Persia - A Shi-Ah Catholic 1560-1604, Edited by Sir E. Denison Ross and Eileen Power, Translated and Edited by G. Le Strange, Published by Harper & Brothers (New York and London), First Published in 1926. In Notes to Book II Chapter VIII, note 3 reads: ...The town [Erivan] was founded in the reign of Shah Isma'il I by Rivan Khan, otherwise Erivan, who gave it his name, and it was then the frontier fortress of Persia against Georgia... (Hammer-Purgstall, IV, p86). Here, Hammer-Purgstall refers to Joseph von Hammer-Purgstall's Geschichte des osmanischen Reiches (Pest, 1827)

The original book translated by is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Juan_of_Persia. Jbrosenasad (talk) 02:56, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. h 10:54, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
▶▶Thank you, I am new to this. I propose adding to the section Etymology the alternative etymology found in the cited text. Note, the text is a translation of an original book published in 1604 and describes the life of a Persian diplomat and official who converted to Catholicism while on a mission to Europe. The same text should be added to the history of the foundation of the city. Here's the text to which I am referring[5].
The source is non-WP:RS. - LouisAragon (talk) 22:35, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Ross, Denison E. (1926). Don Juan of Persia A Shi'Ah Catholic 1560-1604. New York and London: Harper & Brothers. p. 313, 327-328. ISBN 9781406763577.
  2. ^ ЭРИВАНИ Мирза Кадым Мамед-Гусейн оглы ЭРИДА. "ЭРИВАНЬ – это... Что такое ЭРИВАНЬ?". Dic.academic.ru. Retrieved 2017-12-11.
  3. ^ "Yerevan, Erevan (1900–2008)". Google Ngram Viewer.
  4. ^ Lottman, Herbert R. (29 February 1976). "Despite Ages of Captivity, The Armenians Persevere". The New York Times. p. 287. ...Erevan, capital of Armenia.
  5. ^ Ross, Sir E. Denison (1926). Don Juan of Persia A Shi'Ah Catholic 1560-1604. New York and London: Harper & Brothers. p. 313, 327-328. ISBN 9781406763577.

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 31 January 2021[edit]

remove redundant parentheses:
(UK: /ˌjɛrəˈvæn/ YERR-ə-VAN, US: /-ˈvɑːn/ -⁠VAHN, Armenian: Երևան[a] [jɛɾɛˈvɑn] (About this soundlisten)), sometimes spelled Erevan)
to
(UK: /ˌjɛrəˈvæn/ YERR-ə-VAN, US: /-ˈvɑːn/ -⁠VAHN, Armenian: Երևան[a] [jɛɾɛˈvɑn] (About this soundlisten), sometimes spelled Erevan)
Andron35 (talk) 13:37, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

 Done AntonSamuel (talk) 13:47, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
Make sure to change the "|answered=" parameter to yes next time. Thank you! — CuriousGolden (T·C) 13:51, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

Roman "period"[edit]

Can we genuinely speak of a Roman "period" in Eastern Armenia/Yerevan? Are there any WP:RS that support this view? - LouisAragon (talk) 06:06, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

The short-lived Roman province of Armenia in 117, north of Mesopotamia.
  • Roman Armenia included much of the region- including Yerevan, almost reaching the shores of the Caspian. And let's not forget that the Artaxiad dynasty was placed under Roman protection around 66/65 BC (if I remember correctly), which did include the region of Yerevan; we're talking about ~100 years of "Roman influence". The source highlights the Roman presence east the Euphrates, what became known as "Fourth Armenia", as well as, the Roman presence/conquests stretching as far as Atropatene.[1] Archives908 (talk) 07:31, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
  1. ^ Bury, J.B. (2013). History of the Later Roman Empire, Vol. 2: From the Death of Theodosius I to the Death of Justinian From the Death of Theodosius. Courier Corporation.