Talk:Youth Left (Italy)

Requested move 21 March 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved to Youth Left (Italy). Consensus for this move instead of Sinistra Giovanile. (non-admin closure) Turnagra (talk) 18:20, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

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Left Youth (Italy) → Sinistra Giovanile – or Youth Left (Italy). There is no trace of the usage of the English word in literature (actually the whole article is based on a single source in Italian). Even if we wanted to make up a translation into English, then definitely sinistra giovanile translated more into "youth left" or "juvenile left", rather than "left youth" (that would be gioventù di sinistra). Indeed the first sentence of this article calls it Youth Left, even though the title is Left Youth... Yakme (talk) 11:05, 21 March 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose "Sinistra Giovanile" per WP:UE. If there is no common name in English, the title must be translated. See similar RM at Talk:Youth League (Italy). 162 etc. (talk) 16:07, 21 March 2022 (UTC)

I will copy here my reply from the other discussion. From WP:UE: "If there is no established English-language treatment for a name, translate it if this can be done without loss of accuracy and with greater understanding for the English-speaking reader." In this case "left youth" is definitely not the only possible translation, nor the most adherent to the original Italian name. Yakme (talk) 16:16, 21 March 2022 (UTC)

I will also reiterate that if that is the case, the solution is to use a better translation, not a non-English title. 162 etc. (talk) 16:30, 21 March 2022 (UTC)

There is not always a better translation. Some names are very hard to convey from one language to another. "Sinistra giovanile" is definitely closer to "youth left" or "juvenile left" than to "left youth", but still, keeping the Italian name in absence of a very good translation is the best option, i.e. the one with less risk to be wrong. Yakme (talk) 16:33, 21 March 2022 (UTC)

Unless it is commonly used in English-language sources, the Italian name is not an option. I'll point again to WP:UE, which is policy. 162 etc. (talk) 22:18, 21 March 2022 (UTC)

This is simply not true, I'll paste here again the sentence from WP:UE: "If there is no established English-language treatment for a name, translate it if this can be done without loss of accuracy and with greater understanding for the English-speaking reader." Translation to English is mandated only if it can be translated without losing the meaning of the name. Yakme (talk) 22:47, 21 March 2022 (UTC)

Also from WP:UE: "If there are too few reliable English-language sources to constitute an established usage, follow the conventions of the language appropriate to the subject". Surely this is not equivalent to your statement that the Italian name is "not an option", on the contrary. See also WP:ENGLISH: for no established usage of a term in English language sources, "follow the conventions of the language in which this entity is most often talked about". Yakme (talk) 22:55, 21 March 2022 (UTC)

• Support, enthusiastically, "Youth Left (Italy)", while opposing "Sinistra Giovanile", per WP:UE and, incitentally, User:162 etc.. --Checco (talk) 09:28, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

• Support the title “Youth Left (Italy)”, as per 162 etc.’s comments.—Autospark (talk) 12:54, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

You apparently don't really read what WP policies say... Yakme (talk) 10:17, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

• Comment: With no established name in English sources, the main question under WP:UE is whether the translation "youth left" loses accuracy, or causes worse understanding for English speakers. I get the point about "left youth" being wrong. As for "juvenile left", my initial reaction is that it's clearly worse than "youth left": I think "juvenile" is unidiomatic in this context, its other meanings ('immature', 'childish') could add confusion, and its status as a cognate is not a reason alone for the word choice. But "youth left" seems to me, a non-expert, like it might be acceptable. Can the nominator (or others) describe more specifically what is wrong with "youth left" as a translation? (I'll mention Fasci Italiani di Combattimento and Cantiere Popolare as examples where the RM explanations showed why the English translations were problematic.) Adumbrativus (talk) 01:44, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

Youth Left is acceptable – indeed it was the second option in my RM. However it is never used in English, so I am not 100% sure about its accuracy and it also somehow sounds a bit weird to me – although I am not a native English speaker. I just do not accept the arguments of editor 162 stating that "the Italian name is not an option", because this is not at all what WP:UE states. Yakme (talk) 07:19, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

I agree with User:162 etc. than, when an uncontroversial translation is available, an Italian name should not be an option. --Checco (talk) 17:48, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

We're obviously not in the realm of "uncontroversial translations" here. Yakme (talk) 18:37, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

• Support. WP:UE certainly does not mandate slavish translation of foreign names. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:16, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.