Talk:Zviad Gamsakhurdia

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search

POV additions[edit]

If Kober wants facts about Gamsakhurdia's interview on Armenian TV before leaving for Grozny he can contact www.armtv.com to ask them to find it from the archive. I saw the interview myself 15 years ago and have all the rights to post that information as a historical witness. Wikipedia is a popular encyclopedia and not a literature review master paper or peer reviewed journal of articles. There is no need to bring citations or references after each sentence. In that case we can just do a google search or yahoo search and read the articles in the primary sources. Wikipedia is a place where people should decide which is right and which is wrong.Moreover witnesses are number one primary sources.--armenianNY 12:59, 5 February 2007 (UTC) I've had to revert the article to the previous version to eliminate a large number of POV additions and the deletion of a large amount of text, which is pure vandalism. The user responsible (213.157.211.130) should take a look at the Policies and guidelines article to learn why his changes and the way he did them are a Bad Thing. -- ChrisO 09:56, 6 Dec 2003 (UTC)

More wholesale partisan additions and deletions. Things such as "All so-called "Ethnic conflicts" in Georgia and the Caucasus are inspired from Moscow." and "Zviad Gamsakhurdia, - Georgia's National Hero and the first President of independent Georgia was assasinated by the supporters of the Shevardnadze's regime." are blatantly partisan. It's also inexcusable to delete large amounts of content for partisan reasons without even discussing it first. If this continues, I will apply for the article to be locked. -- ChrisO 10:19, 7 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Falsification of biography of President Zviad Gamsakhurdia[edit]

The Article about President Zviad K. Gamsakhurdia ("Zviad Konstantinovich" is Russian form!) of "ChrisO" has absolutely false character. We will create new article about the first President of Georgia.

Dr. Levan Z. Urushadze, Chairman of the International Association "CAUCASUS: Ethnic Relations, Human Rights, Geopolitics" (IACERHRG), Fellow of the International Academy for Intercultural Research (IAIR), in 1991-1997 Member of the Governing Board and Press-Secretary of the Georgian Helsinki Union.

Why do you remove the full name? You can add the Georgian form if you want, but we usually give the fullest form of a name at the beginning of an article, even though we use the most common form for the title (which, in this case, is simply "Zviad Gamsakhurdia" without even the initial). --Wik 02:55, Dec 8, 2003 (UTC)
Wik, I don't know whether Georgians are still given patronyms but I assume that it was common practice under Soviet rule (compare Eduard Amvrosiyevich Shevardnadze). It's quite possible that Russian-style patronyms have fallen out of fashion among modern Georgian nationalists. -- ChrisO 14:56, 8 Dec 2003 (UTC)

PURE FALSIFICATION OF THE BIOGRAPHY OF PRESIDENT ZVIAD GAMSAKHURDIA[edit]

[moved here from User talk:Viajero]

DEAR SIR! THE ARTICLE "ZVIAD GAMSAKHURDIA" (AUTHOR: USER "ChrisO") HAS ABSOLUTELY FALSE CHARACTER. PROCEEDING FROM MENTIONED ABOVE, I DEMAND TO REMOVE THIS WRONG MATERIAL FROM WIKIPEDIA. WE WILL CREATE NEW ARTICLE ABOUT THE FIRST PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF GEORGIA.

I HOPE FOR YOUR UNDERSTANDING AND ATTENTION.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH IN ADVANCE.

ON BEHALF OF THE GROUP OF GEORGIAN HUMAN RIGHTS DEFENDERS AND SUPPORTERS OF THE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE MIKHEIL SAAKASHVILI:

USER "LEVZUR":

DR. LEVAN Z. URUSHADZE, CHAIRMAN OF THE INTERNATIONAL ASSOCIATION "CAUCASUS: ETHNIC RELATIONS, HUMAN RIGHTS, GEOPOLITICS" (IACERHRG), FELLOW OF THE INTERNATIONAL ACADEMY FOR INTERCULTURAL RESEARCH (IAIR)

TBILISI, DECEMBER 8, 2003


Advice for Levzur[edit]

Levzur, as a new user you should have a look at Wikipedia's policies to learn more about the requirements for articles. In particular, you should look at the articles on Neutral point of view ("NPOV"), the NPOV tutorial and why you should log in before making drastic changes to existing articles. To help you get started, I'll explain why some of your edits don't meet the Wikipedia standards:

  • Biased descriptions of individuals and groups: e.g. "Communist-criminal forces", "notorious underworld figure", etc.
  • Stating disputed assertions as authoritative: "This coup was govern from Moscow", "President Gamsakhurdia was assassinated", etc. It's certainly legitimate to mention a particular viewpoints but not at the cost of ignoring all others (particularly if your viewpoint happens to be in a minority).
  • Unexplained deletion of content: if you delete any content, you should explain why (it's inaccurate, biased, etc). If you have specific concerns, they should be discussed on the talk page. You should also ensure that you log in before you start making drastic changes.
  • Apparent deletion of politically inconvenient facts: for instance, your edited version of the Gamsakhurdia article jumps straight from Gamsakhurdia's election to his overthrow. It doesn't say anything about the circumstances of his overthrow (the Soviet coup, the resignations of senior ministers, etc). Likewise, you gloss over the 1993 civil war by calling it "large-scale civil disobedience" when the reality was that it was a full-scale armed conflict involving tanks and troops from four countries. (See the Wikipedia article on civil disobedience for the meaning of the term.) These aren't disputed matters of opinion: they are recorded, indisputable historical facts. You can certainly dispute the meaning of the events concerned but they should not be ignored completely.

I'm not going to speculate on your motives for making those changes, but I have to point out that they present a very one-sided view of Gamsakhurdia, portraying him as a hero and deleting anything that suggests that other people saw him as a villain. Personally, I don't much care whether he was a hero or a villain - I'm not a partisan. The important thing is that Wikipedia should provide an objective summary of his career. That necessarily has to acknowledge both sides' view of Gamsakhurdia. If you eliminate one side's viewpoint entirely, you will have an article which (like yours) does not meet the neutral point of view requirement.

I've tried to capture the viewpoints of both sides, but I'm entirely willing to admit that I may not have achieved this yet. If you would like to suggest specific areas where the article can be improved, or point out things that I've got wrong, I would be grateful. Let's work together to improve this article, not have a pointless edit war. -- ChrisO 14:44, 8 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Note to readers User:Levzur has his very own page among the Problem Users: Wikipedia:Conflicts_between_users/Levzur will give an idea. His own user page will also give the reader a clear picture of this contributor's agenda. -- {[User:Wetman|Wetman]]

This entry caught my eye: "1991-1992 - Special Correspondent of the Press Office of the first President of the Republic of Georgia, Dr. Zviad Gamsakhurdia." That may have something to do with the present dispute... -- ChrisO 13:01, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Letter for "ChrisO"[edit]

Dear Sir!

Thank you very much for your letter.

I have carried in the necessary changes in your article about President Zviad Gamsakhurdia. Without it your article will be unboubtedly tendentious. I have spacious documentary files confirmed the correctness of these changes.

I'l be very grateful if you will foresee it and leave them in your article.

I hope you will understand me.

Thank you in advance.

With best regards,

Dr. Levan Z. Urushadze ("Levzur")


Another day, another draft[edit]

OK, we're making progress here. I've added some more material and references, and I've retained as many of your amendments as possible (I've reworded a few to make them work better in the text). You haven't said which specific points of the article you were/are unhappy with, but from your latest additions and deletions I would guess that you dispute the following bits:

  • "Zviad Konstantinovich Gamsakhurdia" - as Wik said earlier on this page, "we usually give the fullest form of a name at the beginning of an article". I'm not sure why you don't want to use his middle name.
  • "The authorities claimed that he had confessed to the charges and recanted his beliefs..." Gamsakhurdia's "confession" is a matter of historical record, although obviously the explanation is a matter of debate - I found an open letter from Gamsakhurdia to Shevardnadze which suggests that his motives were purely tactical. You've removed any mention of the "confession" at least twice now; what is your reason for doing so?
  • "Zviad Gamsakhurdia's brief tenure as President of Georgia was characterised by steadily worsening tension between the Georgian government and its ethnic minorities, and splits within the governing coalition that eventually resulted in a civil war and Gamsakhurdia's ousting." This seems to be a reasonable summary of events but it's been removed and re-added at least twice now - do you not agree with it?
  • The coup attempt of June 1992 - I added more information on this subject. However, you've removed any mention it at least twice now; what is your reason for doing so?
  • "However, Gamsakhurdia's capture of the economically vital Georgian Black Sea port Poti threatened the interests of Russia, Armenia and Azerbaijan. All three countries intervened militarily to support the Georgian government, sending troops to block Gamsakhurdia's advance." I've re-inserted and clarified this point, but your last draft deleted it; Russia was not the only country involved, although it sent by far the largest number of troops.
  • "On December 31, 1993, Zviad Gamsakhurdia apparently died in circumstances that were (and still are) very unclear..." You've persistently deleted this entire section and replaced it with an assertion that Gamsakhurdia was assassinated. I don't think it's credible to be so certain about it when there are several different competing explanations (and particularly when suicide is the generally accepted theory). To use an American comparison, it's as if you were ending an article on John Fitzgerald Kennedy with a statement that "Kennedy was assassinated by agents of Fidel Castro" - that's one theory, certainly, but not the only one and definitely not the leading one. The article has to reflect the uncertainty that still exists over the death of Gamsakhurdia (remember the NPOV requirement!) and it also needs to say that the most widely believed explanation is suicide. -- ChrisO 23:20, 10 Dec 2003 (UTC)

For "ChrisO"[edit]

Dear Sir!

Please note, that I'm participant of all events in 1987-1993: In 1989 I was Editor and publisher of the underground newspaper "Kristian-Democrati", in 1990-1997 - member of the Georgian Helsinki Union (in 1992-1997 - member of the Governing Board and Press-Secretary), in 1990-1991 - Spec. correspondent of the Press Office of Zviad Gamsakhurdia, in 1992-1993 - Co-editor of the underground newspaper "Kartuli Azri" ("The Georgian Opinion").

We have special archive, spacious documentary files confirmed the correctness of my changes in your article about Zviad Gamsakhurdia.

I hope for your understanding.

With best regards,

Dr. Levan Z. Urushadze ("Levzur")

I'm not disputing your credentials, but I asked a number of very specific questions - could you please answer them? -- ChrisO 13:40, 11 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Answer for "ChrisO"[edit]

Dear friend,

You have questions, we have answers and documents. This discussion will endless... Please note that really President Zviad Gamsakhurdia is a National Hero for majority of the population of Georgia. His legal authority was overthrown and he was murdered for his aspiration to create independent, full value state of Georgia. First of all, I am historian and I wish to create a objective portrait of the first President of my country.

With best regards,

Dr. Levan Z. Urushadze ("Levzur")

Some more changes[edit]

Thank you for your latest additions - I've made some modifications to the article to make the additions work better. I hope you don't mind this; I know English isn't your native language, so I'm trying to reword your sentiments so that they read better in English. There are a few partisan additions that I've had to remove in their original form (such as the assertion that Georgia's minority problems are all inspired by Moscow) but I've tried to respect these by expressing them in a different way.

Speaking of partisan additions, I need to ask you about what appear to be partisan deletions. There are three examples in particular which you've persistently deleted without any explanation:

  • The paragraph which begins "A Military Council made up of Gamsakhurdia opponents ...". I don't see why this paragraph is objectionable, given that it's entirely factual.
  • Mentions of Armenia and Azerbaijan in the section about the 1993 civil war. Both countries are clearly on the record as having supported Shevardnadze's government - which from their point of view was entirely sensible, as both depended on having access to the Georgian Black Sea ports. Why don't you want to mention this?
  • The three paragraphs from "On December 31, 1993, Zviad Gamsakhurdia apparently died ...". From your previous edits, I would guess that you take the view that he was murdered. As I've already said, that is one point of view. I've tried to include the other points of view as well - that is essential if the article is to meet the neutral point of view requirement of Wikipedia. I really don't recommend deleting this section again.

One other thing - if you make any more major changes, could you please make sure that you don't have "This is a minor edit" selected? Minor edits are supposed to be things like correcting spelling mistakes, not making significant changes to the text. -- ChrisO 01:35, 15 Dec 2003 (UTC)

STOP![edit]

Dear ChrisO, please stop!

Not until you stop making politically inspired deletions which you refuse to discuss. I've given you more than enough opportunity over the past month to discuss your changes, which you have so far refused to do. Your editing falls well below the standards for Wikipedia editors and has already provoked a number of complaints from users - see Wikipedia:Problem users. I have asked for the article to be locked until you decide to start discussing your changes. -- ChrisO 08:29, 5 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Letter to ChrisO and Administration of "Wikipedia"[edit]

Dear ChrisO and members of the administration,

If you will continue to publish misinformation in the article about President Zviad Gamsakhurdia, I am forced to bring the administration of "Wikipedia" to the trial.

Dear ChrisO, we have all your writings showing the level of your knowledge of Newest History of Georgia. Your reasonings prove not your impartiality but your absolutely incompetence.

I give you 24 hours to restore my text which you changed. Otherwise I shall take steps against you and the administration of "Wikipedia" for cast aspersions on first President of Georgia and the insult of his memory!

I hope you are sufficiently sense and will not lead the case to very undesirable for you end.

With best regards,

Dr. Levan Z. Urushadze (user "Levzur")

Rather than making empty threats, why not discuss the specific points in the article that you object to and that you keep deleting? The reason why the Wikipedia administrators have locked the article is so that a compromise can be worked out without an edit war. I can't edit the article any more, either.
The points you seem to object to are:
  • reported casualties in the September 1991 protests in Tblisi. This was widely reported in the media at the time. According to the Associated Press and other news agencies on September 3, 1991, five people were injured in clashes between government forces and demonstrators.
  • support of Armenia and Azerbaijan for Shevardnadze in September/October 1993. According to the Associated Press and other news agencies, talks were held in Moscow between Russia, Georgia, Armenia and Azerbaijan on October 11, 1993 about setting up a joint military force to restore order in western Georgia. Many sources reported around October 14, 1993 that the Georgian Black Sea ports were vital to Armenia because of Azerbaijan's economic blockade of the country. Many press agencies (including Xinhua, UPI and the Associated Press) reported that Shevardnadze gave a radio interview on October 18, 1993 in which he asked for military assistance from Russia, Armenia and Azerbaijan. The Agence France Presse reported on November 2, 1993 that "Armenia said it was waiting for fighting in western Georgia to stop before deploying troops along communication routes as agreed in a joint plan signed in October with Georgia and Russia. At a press conference in Yerevan, presidential spokesman Aram Abramian said Armenia was worried that its troops might get dragged into the conflict. But he added that the plan was still valid, although the troops would only be deployed once the fighting had finished."
  • Gamsakhurdia's death. As you know, the circumstances were disputed. The Mkhedrioni were blamed by Gamsakhurdia's supporters for his death but they rejected this and offered an alternative explanation, i.e. that he died in Chechnya (as reported in The Guardian, January 6, 1994). His purported suicide note was widely reported on January 6, 1994 (for instance, in the Washington Post and Las Vegas Sun) following a TASS report. TASS attributed the publication of the suicide note to Gamsakhurdia's press agency in Grozny.
You may not agree with this, but the neutral point of view requirement dictates that Wikipedia articles should report what is claimed. Editors are supposed to present all sides. You are not supposed to dismiss claims as "misinformation". Many of your edits and deletions have clearly had a partisan element (for instance, your use of descriptions such as "Communist-criminal forces" and "notorious underworld figure" or your assertions that "This coup was govern from Moscow" or that "President Gamsakhurdia was assassinated").
As an editor, you're not supposed to take sides. You can describe claims but don't present them as being the absolute truth and don't delete claims you don't like. You may disagree with them personally, but you shouldn't try to suppress the fact that the claims were made in the first place.
I've already tried to explain this to you in my earlier contributions to this discussion page. If you don't want to follow Wikipedia rules, you will probably find yourself banned by the administrators. -- ChrisO 12:46, 6 Jan 2004 (UTC)

From "Levzur"[edit]

Dear "ChrisO":

1) You are writing in your answer that on September 2, 1991 "five people were injured in clashes between government forces and demonstrators". But in the artticle about President Gamsakhurdia it is in another way: "Anti-government demonstration in Tbilisi was dispersed by police with the reported loss of several lives". On the base of many documents and Georgian press of that time I assert no one was killed there. There were only some injured men. On Zviad Gamsakhurdia's order already on September 3, 1991, was started the investigation of this case.

2) In October, 1993, Shevardnadze asked military help to Russia, Armenia and Azerbaijan, but it had made only Russia and in turn Shevardnadze promised to enter Georgia into CIS and to legalize Russian military bases in Georgia.

3) Zviad Gamsakhurdia was killed on December 31, 1993, in a small village Jikhashkari (Samegrelo, Western Georgia) and was secretly buryed in the same place. It was really fact. On February 15, 1994, Gamsakhurdia's body was transported to the Grozny (capital of the Chechen Republic Ichkeria), where he was re-buryed on February 24, 1994. All of it was taken (photo and video).

Therefore as before we categorically demand bring in these corrections!

With best regards,

Dr. Levan Z. Urushadze ("Levzur")

Taking each item in turn...
1) You're right about this - I had confused the demonstrations at the beginning of September (in which five were reported injured) with those at the end of September (in which five were reported killed). This does need to be changed.
2) Correct, Shevardnadze asked for help from Armenia, Azerbaijan and Russia, but as I've already stated, all three countries agreed on or around October 11 that they would provide military assistance to Shevardnadze in exchange for Georgia joining the CIS. Armenia later said that it would only send troops when the fighting had stopped; I'm not sure what happened with Azerbaijan but I presume it did the same as Armenia, as I've not found any mention of Azerbaijani troops intervening. This is a matter of historical record, so I don't know why you object to mentioning Armenia and Azerbaijan's position. Omitting the Armenian and Azerbaijani position and presenting Russia as Shevardnadze's only supporter is a distortion of the facts.
3) You miss the point - there are two sides to this story and both need to be reported to meet the Wikipedia neutral point of view requirement. We have to report the claims, not state that one particular version - that of the Gamsakhurdia supporters - is "really fact". Again, it's a matter of historical record that the Mkhedrioni contradicted the "official" story and that a purported suicide note was published. Ignoring those claims isn't neutral. I repeat, they have to be reported whether or not you agree with them (personally, I don't). -- ChrisO 11:14, 8 Jan 2004 (UTC)

It is misinformation![edit]

1) "CrisO" wrote,that in the end of September, 1991, was demonstration in which 5 were killed. It is completely misinformation.
2) Military help to Shevardnadze had made only Russia!
3) It is really fact, that Zviad Gamsakhurdia died in a village Jikhashkari (not in the Chechen Republic!). His body was transported in Grozny from this village. We have photo and video material.

Dr. Levan Z. Urushadze (user "Levzur")

1) I said that five were reported killed. Actually, the figure varies between three and five depending on the source. It was widely reported between September 24-26, 1991: see, for instance, "Four Killed as Soviet Georgia Fighting Grows" (Los Angeles Times, Sep 24), "Shootout in Soviet Georgia leaves 4 dead" (Associated Press, Sep 25), "Georgian troops kill 3, opposition chief claims" (Reuter, Sep 26).
2) The article already says this.
3) You seem to be wilfully ignoring what I said above. We have to report both versions of the story, not just what you regard as "really fact".
I'll ask for a modification to fix the factual error that you identified at point 1. Regarding point 2, the article already agrees with what you said - that the support from Armenia and Azerbaijan was purely political and that only Russia sent troops. This doesn't need to be changed. On point 3, the article already meets the NPOV requirement by providing both versions of events. You haven't said what changes you would like to make but I assume that you want to delete the paragraph beginning "This was denied by the Mkhedrioni". This would not comply with the NPOV requirement, so I won't make any changes here. I don't propose to discuss the matter any further unless you can propose a new description that would be neutral. -- ChrisO 10:50, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)

About misinformation again...[edit]

Dear "ChrisO",

Spreading of misinformation and falsification of historical facts means fighting against basic principles of historism!..

Dr. Levan Z. Urushadze (User "Levzur")

For user "ChrisO"[edit]

Dear ChrisO,

I'd like to inform you, that the first decree, which the President of Georgia Mikhail Saakashvili had signed on January 26, 2004, is the decree about re-burying the body of the first President of Georgia Zviad Gamsakhurdia from Grozny to Tbilisi and the longest main road of Tbilisi (the right embankment of a river Mtkvari (Kura)) mas named after Zviad Gamsakhurdia. Moreover, 32 political prisoners, supporters of the first President of Georgia, arrested by Shevardnadze, will be released.

This important decree was signed in Tbilisi Qashueti church of Saint George, where President Saakashvili declared, that Zviad Gamsakhurdia was the great statesman, one of greatest patriots of Georgia and may his memory live for ever.

In so far as, Mr. ChrisO, I hope above mentioned will show you who was really Zviad Gamsakhurdia for Georgia and what kind article must be devoted him.

With best regards,

Dr. Levan Z. Urushadze (User Levzur)

Jan 27, 2004

For user Wik[edit]

Dear "Wik",

In 1991-1992 I was a Special Correspondent of President Gamsakhurdia's Press Office. President died in village Jikhashkari (Mingrwelia region of Western Georgia. I was participant of re-buriing of Gamsakhurdia to Grozny!

With best regards,

Dr. Levan Z. Urushadze (user Levzur

10 Feb 2004

ChrisO has addressed this issue before. I will not waste my time. --Wik 21:21, Feb 9, 2004 (UTC)
Has the article been locked again? *sigh* -- ChrisO 23:39, 9 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Request for Comment[edit]

In the light of the continued reversion conflict on this article and the evident failure of step 1 of the Wikipedia:Dispute resolution process, I've moved on to step 2 and posted a request for comment on the Wikipedia:Requests for comment page. If you've come to this talk page from there, I suggest that you take a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Zviad_Gamsakhurdia&diff=0&oldid=2385271 for the most recent comparison of versions and the notes on this page under Letter to ChrisO and Administration of "Wikipedia", which outlines the positions on both sides. -- ChrisO 03:00, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)

This paragraph:

This was publicly denied by the Mkhedrioni, who claimed that Gamsakhurdia had been wounded in a skirmish on Chechen territory and had died in Grozny. Adding to the confusion, the Chechen authorities published what they claimed was Gamsakhurdia's suicide note: "Being in clear conscience, I commit this act in token of protest against the ruling regime in Georgia and because I am deprived of the possibility, acting as the president, to normalize the situation, to restore law and order." The Georgian Interior Ministry suggested that he had either been deliberately killed by his own supporters, or had died following a quarrel with his former chief commander, Loty Kobalia. This was strongly denied by Gamsakhurdia's supporters.

has been deleted by Levzur (marked as a minor edit). It reads to me as NPOV. If a reference or two can be provided then I suggest that the paragraph be put back in. Same goes for the other items Levzur deleted. Everybody here needs to follow the majority/consensus rule established on this talk page. Those that don't, risk their ability to edit this article in the future. --mav

For ease of reference, I'll repost the relevant portions of my comments and references from earlier in this thread.
The Mkhedrioni were blamed by Gamsakhurdia's supporters for his death but they rejected this and offered an alternative explanation, i.e. that he died in Chechnya (as reported in The Guardian, January 6, 1994). His purported suicide note was widely reported on January 6, 1994 (for instance, in the Washington Post and Las Vegas Sun) following a TASS report. TASS attributed the publication of the suicide note to Gamsakhurdia's press agency in Grozny.
There are two sides to this story and both need to be reported to meet the Wikipedia neutral point of view requirement. We have to report the claims, not state that one particular version - that of the Gamsakhurdia supporters - is "really fact". Again, it's a matter of historical record that the Mkhedrioni contradicted the "official" story and that a purported suicide note was published. Ignoring those claims isn't neutral. I repeat, they have to be reported whether or not you agree with them (personally, I don't).
The article already meets the NPOV requirement by providing both versions of events. You [Levzur] haven't said what changes you would like to make but I assume that you want to delete the paragraph beginning "This was denied by the Mkhedrioni". This would not comply with the NPOV requirement.
It appears that Levzur does not want the article to mention either the Mkhedrioni's version of events or the purported suicide note - I can only assume for partisan reasons. He has not attempted to provide any alternative wording. His concerns about "misinformation" are addressed by Neutral point of view, which says:
You aren't claiming anything, except to say, "So-and-so argues that such-and-such, twiddle dee dee, and therefore, QED." This can be done with a straight face, with no moral compunctions, because you are attributing the claim to someone else. That's the important thing here! If we are summing up human knowledge on a subject, in the sense above-defined, then you are leaving out important information when you omit so-and-so's argument.
-- ChrisO 12:59, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Dear ChrisO, you and others from Wikipedia must publish a REAL FACTS! Real fact is Gamsakhurdia's death on December 31, 1993, in west-Georgian village Jikhashkari ("Zviad Gamsakhurdia" (Obituary signed by the Presidium of the Supreme Council of Georgia in exile and the Gamsakhurdia's Government), Russian newspaper "Ichkeria", Grozny, February 23, 1994). Prime-Minister of Gamsakhurdia's Government, Dr. Bessarion Gugushvili (he was with President Zviad Gamsakhurdia in Jikhashkari) confirmed many times, that Gamsakhurdia died in the mentioned village. Information of "Mkhedrioni" is MISINFORMATION! On February 24, 1994 I was one of the participants of Gamsakhurdia's re-buriing to Grozny. In January, 1992 - January, 1994 I was also a Deputy Head of the underground Press-Office of the exiled Supreme Council in Tbilisi. -- Levzur 21 Feb 2004
Levzur seems to be on a crusade to present the version that he views as the right one, as being the only one. Wikipedia's Npov is holy, all relevant viewpoints must be presented, however "wrong" they might be. I view Levzur as a danger to this article's correctness. Mrdice 08:52, 2004 Feb 23 (UTC)
No. Read our NPOV policy. The facts here are disputed, so we must therefore explain that fact. Declaring one set of disputed facts as "true" and not presenting other versions is not in conformance with our policy. So far it is two to one and we have policy on our side. And the fact that you were closely involved raises POV flags for me. --mav 03:22, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I agree with mav and Chris. Taking out that paragraph makes Wikipedia seem to say that the version you are trying to impose is the only version. If there is a question ruaabout his death, then all points must be presented. RickK 05:03, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)
The paragraph isn't there to annoy Levzur or belittle Gamsakhurdia. There was a great deal of confusion at the time about Gamsakhurdia's apparent death, with at least four different explanations being offered (not to mention the claims that he'd escaped somewhere to fight another day). Even now, it's not clear what happened. Levzur's earlier edits to this article stated that Gamsakhurdia had been "assassinated", which is obviously very different from what others have claimed. Because of this still unresolved confusion, we need to reflect the different theories in the article. This does not mean that we are endorsing them. -- ChrisO 08:25, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)

To User:Maveric 149 and User:RickK[edit]

Dear friends,

The official obituary signed by the Presidium of the Supreme Council of Georgia in exile and the Gamsakhurdia's Government (Newspaper "Ichkeria", Grozny, February 23, 1994) is official document about the date and place of Gamsakhurdia's death. It is fact and this fact can't disputed! --Levzur 22 feb 2004

It is a fact that that is what they claim. RickK 05:13, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)
It's also a fact that others have claimed differently. :-) -- ChrisO 08:27, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Obviously I agree with ChrisO, mav, etc. We can not verify how Gamsakhurdia died, we can only report the various claims. --Wik 08:39, Feb 23, 2004 (UTC)

Page protected yet again[edit]

From Wikipedia:Protected pages:

  • Zviad Gamsakhurdia -- Continual changes by User:Levzur, contrary to clear consensus, many of them dishonestly marked "minor". Not the first time this page has been protected for the same reason. Tannin 09:09, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)

While it's clearly a good thing that we have a time out from the revert conflict, the article clearly cannot be protected forever and past experience has shown that it will simply be changed again when it's unprotected. What do we do now? Is it possible to protect a page from one single user or IP address, rather than from everyone? -- ChrisO 11:02, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I have asked myself that same question many times. As far as I know, the answer is "no". Sigh. Tannin 11:06, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Dear Tannin, I not assert that President Zviad Gamsakhurdia had been assassinated (before the end of the official investigation of this case by the Prosecutor General's Office of Georgia and the Supreme Court of Georgia). I say that President Gamsakhurdia died on December 31, 1993, in a village JIKHASHKARI (Western Georgia) and that the data of "Mkhedrioni" about Gamsakhurdia's death in Chechenya is a misinformation! The official obituary signed by the Presidium of the Supreme Council of Georgia in exile (Russian newspaper "Ichkeria", Grozny, February 23, 1994) is a main document about the date and place of Gamsakhurdia's death. Prime-Minister of Gamsakhurdia's Government, Dr. Bessarion Gugushvili (he was with Gamsakhurdia in Jikhashkari) confirmed mani times, that the first President of Georgia died in Jikhashkari. -- Levzur 25 Feb 2004

Here we go again[edit]

Unfortunately RickK has had to protect the page yet again. I think it's about time we got the message across some other way.

(Added) I've now started a quickpoll at Wikipedia:Quickpolls#Levzur on the question of a 24 hour ban. -- ChrisO 01:17, 27 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I've protected it again. Levzur was reverting again. RickK | Talk 02:52, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Protected due to edit war[edit]

This page was protected to stop an ongoing edit war (5+ reverts each) between ChrisO and Levzur. Unless someone else does so first, I intend to unprotect the page in 48 hours. -- Seth Ilys 22:54, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Thanks. I think this latest outbreak makes it very clear that Levzur has no intention of following the policy, which has already been posted to his talk page, and also intends to ignore both the community consensus here and the warnings/advice of various sysops. The matter is now listed at Wikipedia:Requests for mediation and will probably be taken to Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration in due course. -- ChrisO 23:06, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)
As I won't be around this evening to unblock at the 48-hour mark, and because I'm opposed to indefinite protection of pages, I've gone ahead and unprotected the page. -- Seth Ilys 14:19, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Fair enough, and I agree entirely that pages shouldn't be protected indefinitely. For the record, Levzur has now effectively rejected mediation (and the applicability of Wikipedia policy in general) so it looks like it will have to go to arbitration after all. -- ChrisO 15:29, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Arbitration requested[edit]

I have now submitted a request for arbitration concerning this article. Evidence is at User:Levzur/Evidence - if any non-arbitrators wish to comment, please do so there. -- ChrisO 11:59, 26 Apr 2004 (UTC)


"Thanks. I think this latest outbreak makes it very clear that Levzur has no intention of following the policy, which has already been posted to his talk page, and also intends to ignore both the community consensus here and the warnings/advice of various sysops. The matter is now listed at Wikipedia:Requests for mediation and will probably be taken to Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration in due course. -- ChrisO 23:06, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)"

is that the Supreme WikiCourt? Vital component 5-19-04 4:16 AM est

You could call it that. :-) -- ChrisO 10:34, 20 May 2004 (UTC)

LADS!!! Alexander Lebed, Zurab Zhania, Turpal Ali-Atgeriev, Salman Raduyev, President Dudaev... mysterious circumstances surrounded many deaths of players in the murky politics of ex-Soviet Bloc states. Cancer, internal-bleeding, suicide were all cited as official causes of death. I think that ChrisO should pay more attention to plausibility and less to the majority opinion. Levsur appears to be closer to the situation and although he makes no concealment of his partisanship on the subject of Gamsakhurdia, his version has the ring of credibility where other versions sound ridiculous. That's my opinion.

Eda.

Helsinki[edit]

Someone who can edit protected pages please link a few of those references to "Helsinki groups" to Helsinki Committee for Human Rights and remove the overly generic link to http://www.ihf-hr.org/index.php (which exists on the aforementioned other page already). Thanks. --Shallot 17:25, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I'll volunteer to do that; I'm otherwise completely uninvolved with this page or the arbitration relating to it so hopefully I won't be considered partisan. Bryan 23:35, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)

"Konstantinovich"[edit]

I know this is probably a waste of time given Levzur's apparent Russophobia, but for the record here are some Google links to examples of ZG's patronym rendered in the Russian style: [1] -- ChrisO 15:11, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Zviad Gamsakhurdia fighted against Russia, he fighted against the Russian Soviet empire, for the restoration of state independence of Georgia! -- Levzur 10 Apr 2005

And your point is? Was he also referred to as "Konstantinovich" during the Soviet era? Yes or no? -- ChrisO 23:51, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Not by the Georgians. We Georgians call each other "batono ... (first name of the person)", which translates to "mister ...(first name)". And since Zviad Gamsaxurdia was Georgian you shouldn't refer to him way the Russians did.

respectfully Niko (in Russian - Nikolai, but please call me Niko)

in spanish[edit]

Hello, I wanted to start a translation for the president of georgia to Wiki Spanish, but I find unable to understand the whole point of the discussion. Wich version can I use to present an accurate an NPOV bio about this president. Thanks to everyone ! Messhermit 03:33, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

I suggest that you use the current version... -- ChrisO 08:51, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

1991 election[edit]

Who were the other candidates? What parties did they represent?

Body[edit]

Four times reburied - where is the grave of Zviad Gamsakhurdia now? --HanzoHattori 16:55, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

What Gamsakhurdia is known for internationally[edit]

Whether this is warranted or not, he is known for fanning the flames of disgruntlement for ethnic minorities in Georgia with the "Guest-Host" doctrine. This should be mentioned in the article in a neutral manner. Pocopocopocopoco 05:01, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Internationally he's generally unknown. He's just known in Russia as a freak, in Ossetia as a war criminal, and in Georgia as a national hero. Even Georgia's best friend, Mr McCain doesn't have an idea about who the hell this is. --Comiccar (talk) 04:34, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
I actually understand that Gamsakhurdia isn't viewed that well inside Georgia either, that a lot of the whole "national hero" talk comes from the little cult of Gamsakhurdia that would also believe that he's still alive and soon to come back riding on a white horse. Which is probably why this article isn't as negative on Gamsakhurdia as it should be; those little cultists of his wouldn't have it in a Wikipedia article so they constantly edit and re-edit to obscure all the b.s. that happened under his presidency, from widespread corruption to allying himself with Georgia's enemies to the complete decay of Georgia before Shevardnadze took power and brought back Georgia's overall political and economic integrity. By the way, if you'll look at my IP information, you'll see I come from nowhere near Russia, Ossetia, or Georgia. 68.93.140.29 (talk) 16:20, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

When is NPOV not NPOV?[edit]

LevZur has a point, but isn't making it clearly enough. This article repeats much that is "received wisdom", the "majority opinion", and in itself that is right. However, much of this is actually the product of a long and politically-inspired campaign, supported by a number of Western governments (see their websites) to smear Gamsakhurdia and thus justify their own actions towards him. If those with a contrary view HAD THE SAME LEVEL OF ACCESS TO MEDIA OUTLETS the received wisdom might be different. The received wisdom is not therefore necesarily NPOV, it can be entirely false, simply because those who know the truth are not given the platform to tell it! Anyone who has been directly involved in any news story, and seen the reporting of it, even when they themselves gave the information, will know what I mean.

Apparently the previous contributor to this page thinks his views are less biased than those of LevZur. The manner in which he expresses them suggests otherwise, and his origins are of no consequence. I would add that in contemporary Georgia open Zviadists are regarded as dinosaurs, non-persons, but Gamsakhurdia has far greater support than you would ever imagine from examining the media. Almost all the TV stations are controlled by the government, and although the printed press is more independent it is not inclined to be openly Zviadist as this would strike at the heart of the legitimacy of the present Georgian state, and have serious repercussions. To take an example: one of the TV stations initiated a "100 Greatest Georgians" programme, a variation on the same format used in many countries. Gamsakhurdia was leading the public vote on this for a long time. Then ads started appearing promoting this programme in which modern Georgian celebrities named their THREE greatest Georgians, when the public could only vote for one. Amazingly, or perhaps not, not one of these celebrities mentioned Gamsakhurdia in their three - a total contradiction to the public vote. Eventually King David the Builder went into the lead, perhaps, the Church got involved, it was a big story. The trouble is, not even Gamsakhurdia's sworn enemies accused his supporters of rigging this vote. So why do such things? Similar conduct has generated what is regarded as the NPOV concerning Gamsakurdia.

Mr. Georgian Secret Service agent who will read this comment, please stop threatening members of my family for refusing to spy on me. If you want to know my views, they have been expressed in a number of newspaper articles, and you know which. If you would like to tell me what they are, be my guest, because most people get it wrong! Varangarian (talk) 16:50, 23 January 2012 (UTC)Varangarian


Scientist?[edit]

The introduction to this article describes Gamsakhurdia as, among other things, a scientist, but the biography seems to indicate that his scholarly work was in literature rather than science. Should the word "scientist" be replaced by another word, such as "professor," "scholar," or "academic"?

I wonder if this may have arisen from translation issues. In some languages, the word "science" (or its equivalent, such as the German "Wissenschaft") can refer to any branch of scholarly inquiry, but in English, it's not usually used for the study of literature and the arts.

I'm putting this in the Talk page rather than changing the article itself, because I know little about Gamsakhurdia. I hope that someone who is more knowledgeable than I will make the correction, if it is considered appropriate. On the other hand, if he really was also a scientist (in the sense that this word is used in English), that should be mentioned in the biography.

Thank you.

External links modified[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to one external link on Zviad Gamsakhurdia. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add {{cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.

You may set the |checked=, on this template, to true or failed to let other editors know you reviewed the change. If you find any errors, please use the tools below to fix them or call an editor by setting |needhelp= to your help request.

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

If you are unable to use these tools, you may set |needhelp=<your help request> on this template to request help from an experienced user. Please include details about your problem, to help other editors.

Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 13:16, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

External links modified[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 5 external links on Zviad Gamsakhurdia. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{Sourcecheck}}).

You may set the |checked=, on this template, to true or failed to let other editors know you reviewed the change. If you find any errors, please use the tools below to fix them or call an editor by setting |needhelp= to your help request.

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

If you are unable to use these tools, you may set |needhelp=<your help request> on this template to request help from an experienced user. Please include details about your problem, to help other editors.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 18:55, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

De facto regime cannot legally despose ruler[edit]

It is stated that a "Military Council made up of Gamsakhurdia opponents ...One of its first actions was to formally depose Gamsakhurdia as President". However a self appointed council has no legal powers, and certainly no formal authority to "formally depose Gemsakhurdia". Furthermore "formally depose" is a contradiction in terms, since formal means legal, but depose implied illegal.203.80.61.102 (talk) 03:21, 31 October 2017 (UTC)