Template talk:Russian elections

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WikiProject Elections and Referendums (Rated Template-class)
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Why any elections in the USSR are excluded?-- 02:11, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Recent edits[edit]

This edit war is highly retarded; the Soviet-era elections keep being removed, with the following rationales;

  1. That the elections were shams. This is quite frankly a nonsense reason; elections all over the world are shams, but they still happen and are widely reported on
  2. That they are redlinks. This is not a reason to remove them; they still happened, and if there is a redlink, hopefully someone will actually see it and write an article
  3. That the make-up of the modern countries is different to the SSRs; this may be the case (though it is interesting that one editor claiming this also used to claim that Ukraine was an independent country within an EU-like USSR during a debate over country of birth definition), but the templates are for all elections in the territories, regardless of the political situation in the them - African election templates include colonial-era elections. Moreover, this template also includes pre-Soviet elections, during which time Russia was in a even more different situation as it is now, yet these are not being removed.

Quite frankly I'm bemused as to why people are so keen to remove these elections from here; as I said, regardless of how flawed they were, they are on the historical record. пﮟოьεԻ 57 23:49, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

As this template is within the scope of WP:RUSSIA, I have raised the issue at WT:RUSSIA. I agree that they should be included, but first and foremost we need to gain consensus based upon needs of the project as a whole; please try to avoid edit-warring No.57, and this goes to other editors also. --Russavia Dialogue 05:38, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
I also agree with Number57. —Nightstallion 13:15, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
I have just reverted the removal of them again - largely because it was yet another blind revert that also changed the format of the template to a style that is being deprecated. Sadly this is also going on on the Moldova and Ukrainian templates. пﮟოьεԻ 57 18:29, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
Elections are events that are tied to the constitution of a particular state. The constitutions of the Russian Federation and the Soviet Union are different. The laws are different and the way the elections where held are different. The bodies people were being elected to were different, there was no "Parliament" in the Soviet Union, but a "Supreme Soviet". You can't just lump them together just because they happen to share the same term "election", this is unencyclopedic. Martintg (talk) 20:34, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Africa was brought up. At Template:Ghanaian elections, we note the country had a different name in colonial times (the Gold Coast). (During the Soviet period, Moldova was known as Moldavia, and that is not currently reflected.) At Template:Zimbabwean elections, names used, as well as little flags, very clearly delineate the difference in regimes. For Russia, Ukraine and Moldova, that is not at all the case; elections under entirely different constitutional arrangements (independent states versus provinces totally subject to the control of the centre at Moscow) are lumped together in confusing and inaccurate (do recall Communism's dismissive attitude toward parliamentary democracy) fashion. - Biruitorul Talk 01:47, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Er, not sure what template you're looking at, but I can't see any mention of Gold Coast on the Ghana template; the links point at articles with the title of Gold Coast though - is this what you want for the Moldovan template?
In response to Martin, you have removed the Soviet-era elections because the system was different, yet you did not remove the pre-Soviet era ones, when it was also different. Can you explain why? пﮟოьεԻ 57 10:26, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
Editors need to stop and think what is important to the project as a whole, and also to WP:RUSSIA, instead of being brash and POV-pushing as they are here. Number 57 raises an excellent point in that elections in the Russian Empire days are totally different to those in the RF, and that they too were basically shams. What we need to look at in regards to the RSFSR elections is whether there is likely to be information available in which we can write an article; information which goes above and beyond that voter attendance was 110% and 150% voted for the CP. Or would an article entitled something like Elections in the RSFSR be more suitable, in which the information can be presented, if individual articles are not likely to have enough detail. Either way, the RSFSR should be included in the template in some form, but we need to present a case as in what form articles should take. --Russavia Dialogue 12:41, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
That would be a start. Of course, you conveniently ignored my point about Zimbabwe/Rhodesia. - Biruitorul Talk 15:00, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
I also suggest at first establishing more general articles like Elections in the Russian SFSR, Elections in the Moldavian SSR and Elections in the Ukrainian SSR. Ceaselessly reverting to re-add at the moment just red links to each and every sham election that took place in a particular SSR is very pointish, in addition to breaking the formal 3 rv rule. I find it very unlikely that articles for all those individual election events that took place every 4 year will be created in the near future (it's very troublesome to find sources for statistics of Moldavian SSR or, say, Kirghizian SSR elections). Also, IMO we do not need separate articles for those elections. So, first establishing the article Elections in the Russian SFSR might give us a start. There are more sources and many more Russian speakers here compared with Romanian or Estonian speakers, so Russian SFSR would be easier.--Miacek and his crime-fighting dog (woof!) 15:18, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
That's certainly a plausible idea. Say, have all such elections in one article with sections, then link all years in the template to that article (eg, [[Elections in the Russian SFSR|1946]]). - Biruitorul Talk 16:57, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
Sounds ok to me. пﮟოьεԻ 57 10:37, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

This template is connected to the article Elections in Russia, meaning the current regime in Moscow. I have no objection to removing the pre-1917 elections. Martintg (talk) 22:09, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

A point: if we did that for the other two, we'd be left with a Template:Elections in the Ukrainian Socialist Republic and a Template:Elections in the Moldavian Democratic Republic, which seems a little silly, as both had just one election. Personally, I'm fine with lumping in Russian Empire + Russia, since (along with the USSR) they were successor states to each other. Another question, though: what about a Template:Soviet elections? If nothing else, the 1989 legislative election and the March 1991 referendum are notable. And another thing: the June 1991 presidential election was in the RSFSR, not Russia (so it might have the wrong title). In any case: our coverage of late Soviet Russian politics is quite weak, and there's much work to be done in that area. - Biruitorul Talk 00:51, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree. It would be highly ineffective *not* to link all of the elections of a state from a single template, even if the constitutional reality of the state changed in between. Besides, it would be highly complicated to even establish a standard for when we should not include elections in the template -- if the powers of the office of president change? If the term length changes? If the name of the country changes? Only if a completely new constitution is passed -- and what if that new constitution doesn't change anything about the elections? It's far easier and more practical to link to all elections a state or its predecessors had. —Nightstallion 23:30, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

I disagree. The template has a flag of the Russian federation at the top and linked to Elections in Russia, which solely discusses elections in post 1990 Russia. Where is this difficultly that you speak of in the article Elections in Russia? Martintg (talk) 06:47, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
It has the current flag of Russia; do we need a separate template every time a flag changes? The elections in Russia article can (and should) be expanded to cover other elections in Russia, so its current content is not an excuse. Anyway, I have taken the suggestion above that the years have been reinstated, but with a single link to Elections in the Russian SFSR. пﮟოьεԻ 57 09:20, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
Re-reading above, the consensus established was to create the articles Elections in the Russian SFSR, Elections in the Moldavian SSR and Elections in the Ukrainian SSR first. Currently you and Number 57 are listing Soviet era elections under the category "Parliamentary elections", did such a body exist in the Soviet state? How does one hold elections in a one-party state? Interestingly the article Elections in Germany, elections held in In the German Democratic Republic are not even listed because the parties that ran were effectively controlled by the SED/state hierarchy. Martintg (talk) 10:27, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
See {{East German elections}}. Also, I have reverted your edits on the Moldovan template as a violation of WP:DICK; you keep reintroducing a blatant spelling mistake with your blind reverts, and changing the title of the template to "independant Moldova" is WP:POINTy. пﮟოьεԻ 57 11:22, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
See {{German elections}}, note that it is distinct from {{East German elections}}. How exactly is pointing out the template is related to elections in independent Moldova WP:POINTy? How about answering some basic questions I asked above. You lump in Soviet era elections under category "Parliamentary elections", did such a body exist in the Soviet state? How does one hold parliamentary elections in a one-party state? Sorry to be pedantic, but this is an meant to be an encyclopedia, right? Martintg (talk) 11:42, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
German elections and East German elections are separate templates because they were separate countries until East Germany merged into the FRG; German elections include what was West Germany (note that the links in the German ones are for "West German federal elections" from 1949 until 1987).
As for how one holds parliamentary elections in a one-party state, see Elections in Vietnam, Elections in Cuba, Elections in North Korea etc. пﮟოьεԻ 57 11:55, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

The current state of the template is ridiculous. There's row for "Parliamentary elections", which links to State Duma, and a lot of redlink Soviet years. There was no State Duma in Soviet Russia. ΔιγουρενΕμπρος! 12:04, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Number 57 believes Vietnam, Cuba and North Korea holds Parliamentary elections. These countries don't have parliaments, but National Assemblies. I know that the Soviet republics never had a parliamentary system, yet he add dates for Soviet era elections into the "Pariamentary elections" category. Martintg (talk) 12:17, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
The National Assembly of People’s Power (Spanish: Asamblea Nacional del Poder Popular) is the legislative parliament of the Republic of Cuba and the supreme body of State power. The Supreme People's Assembly (SPA) is the unicameral parliament of the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (DPRK), commonly known of North Korea. пﮟოьεԻ 57 12:21, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
Well the definition in Parliament is legislature, while the definition in Legislature is an assembly. The US House of Representatives is not normally referred to as the "US Parliament". We should use the correct terminology for the various bodies, this is an encyclopedia, after all. In any case, it doesn't make sense to have individual SSR level articles on elections. Given that the local Soviet republic level Communist parties were just branches of the central CPSU, it makes more sense to have a single article Elections in the Soviet Union, and have a corresponding template {{Soviet elections}}. For someone who previously argued that the Soviet Union was one country, you should be agreeable to this. Martintg (talk) 20:52, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
I agree that there should be a template for elections to the USSR-level Supreme Soviet (and I didn't argue that the USSR was one country, I just stated that it's a fact; arguing is for areas of dispute), but it still makes sense for the elections to the local legislatures to be included in the templates for existing states, as regardless of anything else, they were elections that happened in those territories (that were specific to them). пﮟოьεԻ 57 08:11, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
Please note that Elections in the Soviet Union is a different topic altogether to Elections in the Russian Soviet Federal Socialist Republic. I am working on presentation of the template, which I believe will be useful for WP:RUSSIA, and redlinks aren't banned from templates -- in some regards, having them will encourage article development. --Russavia Dialogue 08:42, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
Not at all, as Leonard Bertram Schapiro writes in "The government and politics of the Soviet Union", the Soviet constitution and electoral laws applied across the board, from the Supreme Soviet right down to the Soviets in local villages. Separating republic level Soviets makes no sense at all. Martintg (talk) 09:45, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree that this template is confusing, and strongly support the idea for a separate Soviet-era template. At the very least, the template should differentiate between the Russian Empire, the Russian SSR, and the modern Russian Federation. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 19:32, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

I have split the template into the three eras; Russian Empire, Russian SFSR and Russian Federation; I've also renamed parliamentary to legislative, and created {{Soviet elections}}, including the elections listed here and the referendum mentioned above - can anyone fill this out with other USSR-wide elections? Cheers, пﮟოьεԻ 57 21:10, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
Also created Soviet Union referendum, 1991 if anyone would care to expand on it. пﮟოьεԻ 57 09:56, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

pls revert my edit[edit]

I planned to make other template and accidentally overwrote this template, Superzohar Red star.svg Talk 17:49, 29 June 2013 (UTC)