User:Merbabu/Archive18

This is an archive of past discussions about User:Merbabu. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current main page.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Just curious re Suharto

Just wondering why removed death material? Perhaps another article on his death and circumstances- legacy? Starstylers (talk) 14:34, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Cheers- that'll keep me busy (and out of everyone's hair...) ;). Cheers, mate. I promise not to make more dog's breakfastses when avoidable...Starstylers (talk) 17:27, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

30 September Movement

I referenced your latest edit because 1) I think it's important that a potentially contentious point is cited and 2) I couldn't resist the challenge :-) By the way, have you read Roosa's book. I would recommend doing so. Davidelit (talk) 16:18, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

(1) Indeed. (2) See your friendly doktor. Roosa? No - would be nice though. I'm reading "Suharto's Indonesia" (1980) by McDonald now - just for background. --Merbabu (talk) 03:16, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

As you may have read, the floodwaters are rising here. My internet connection has become so slow that I can't edit any pages with pictures. I will archive my talk page once the electrons are flowing again, and I have worked out how to preserve my barnstar for posterity. Oh the vanity! By the way, McDonald is a good read, and seems to have fewer careless errors than Van Rees (A Country in Depair) or Friend (Indonesian Destinies). My favourite oversight in Friend is the photo of the "middle class living room" on p196. The author seems not to have noticed the room is flooded!! Davidelit (talk) 04:55, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Friend errors

These are the problems I have found with Friend's Indonesian Destinies up to p405:

p24 - claims Sukarno was named "Kusno Sosro Sukarno [at birth] but by common Javanese practice ... dropped the first two names early in life" wrong : see Adams Autobiography..., p26
p50 - he mentions intimidation by the PKI in the runup to the 1955 elections, but says nothing about that by other parties (as detailed in Feith, 'Decline...' not an error, but rather disingenuous
p61 - confuses the Konstituante and the DPR, referring to the former as "parliament" in the section on the return to UUD45
p69 - last paragraph. The original reference does not say the army "resented" Sukarno's fantasy uniforms, just that he wore them. Misleading at best.
p288 - he implies the 1996 North Sumatra plane crash was caused by the haze. If I'm not mistaken, it was pilot error and miscommunication with ATC Medan over turning left or right.
p319 - discussing the verbal the abuse of Emil Salim, he becomes a bit of a "Korban Kamus" when he uses the word "transvestite" - presumably from "banci". This doesn't really convey the sense of the word used as an insult in this context. As Friend is American, "fag" or some other entirely offensive word would be better.

Also, I'm not sure about Hatta being under house arrest as claimed on p91, but I'm still trying to find a reference for that one... All in all, these are minor errors but all of them could have been forestalled by a more careful rereading of his sources... Davidelit (talk) 05:47, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Flags at Sydney

WP:DEADHORSE doesn't apply because the debate isn't over. Others are clearly interested in continuing, as the latest post by DHN[1] shows. I see no reason why I should ignore flawed arguments such as those presented today. --AussieLegend (talk) 01:45, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

WP:DEADHORSE talks about debates that have ended, not debates that somebody would like to end. As to whether the arguments are or are not flawed, it's fairly clear that they are when you examine the article, data sources and the Wikipedia policies that are being misquoted. And of course there are the fallacious arguments that are being posted. These are the reasons why I'm responding. I'm not fighting to have the flags reinstated. I realise that they won't be. I just wish some people would be more honest about their real reasons for wanting the flags (one in particular) removed rather than just searching for every reason possible, no matter how obscure, to not have them restored. --AussieLegend (talk) 04:15, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

David Hicks

Hi. :) Your proposed wording is a marginal improvement. I can't say I'm happy with it. By all means bang it on the talk page and see what you can do. Wm (talk) 02:40, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Query

Hi Merbabu, can you do me a favour and watch IP 198.7.241.92's contributions to the U2 page? The IP keeps adding harmonica to Bono's role in the band. I've explained to the IP on both the article's talk page and the IP's talk page that consensus has stated the information should not be included, although the IP continues to add the information. I've issued a 3RR warning to the IP, but unfortunately I can't report the user if the information is readded as I am also in violation of 3RR at the moment from my constant reversions. MelicansMatkin (talk) 19:45, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Bored?

Listless, tired of australian weather being too much like indonesian- try List of TV Stations in Indonesia more issues than you can poke a blunt stick at :( Satu Suro 13:25, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I am not keen to get rid of it - but I see the need to alpha order the lists - and the sheer number of linked arts that would have to be developed beyond one web link makes me feel tired even thinking about it Satu Suro 06:27, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

For me it is just one of those things that must be left to languish (fester?) - there are too many other more important things to get right on wikipedia first. New cr*p like that though should be discouraged. --Merbabu (talk) 06:43, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Mind you, this has been one of those occasions where Wikipedia has provided the answer to a mystery. I was wondering where TV ONE (Indonesia) had come from and what had happened to Lativi. It may not be referenced, but I can confirm that Lativi has vanished, and that TV One has appeared on the same frequency. And it can't be anything but an improvement :-) Davidelit (talk) 16:17, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Indonesia TV stations

Geting all the dreamy situations - references to Indonesia wikipedia as a reference, and all the rest - will be trying to put something on the main WP Indonesia noticeboard about guidelines and hunting down all the arts that need cleaning up - what do you think? Satu Suro 09:36, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

coordinator election

The Wikiproject History is going to elect 3 coordinators. As a member you are invited to participate. Wandalstouring (talk) 10:56, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Name

In the Template:History of East Timor, should we write Modern East Timor, instead of Contemporary East Timor?. The word contemporary is too long. JacquesNguyen (talk) 22:35, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

East Timor

Hello there; I see you've been busy lately on Indonesian invasion of East Timor. I myself have been working on an article about the occupation itself; if you like, you can have a peek here. I hope to take the article to FA. (Feel free to copy from that page for the invasion article if you like; I somewhat expect during the peer review process folks will demand that some of the early info be moved anyway.)

I wonder if you'd be interested in making a WikiProject about East Timor? There are quite a number of pages relating to Timore Lorosae which need work, and a WikiProject seems like a good way for us to approach them. (I've actually started drawing up a to-do list in my sandbox.)

I'm also just curious about how you got interested in East Timor; I suppose it's less rare in Australia, but most folks in the US are woefully ignorant about it. Cheers! – Scartol • Tok 14:24, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

My fevered pace has led me to propose the WikiProject already. Sorry if I'm being too bold. – Scartol • Tok 01:47, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

I think we have crossed paths before at some point, but I don't remember in what capacity. In any case, I'll take a look at Indonesian National Revolution when I have some time (it may be a few days).

I actually restrained myself on Santa Cruz. There's a lot more information I wanted to put in, but thought better to add to the massacre page itself. (Hopefully I'll get to that before long.) I think some of the info on the parties, etc. might be better suited for the invasion article, but I'm going to see what the GA reviewer recommends. Thanks for the feedback on the depth – I've tried very hard to keep extremely neutral while fairly representing the different sources and their proportional weight. As for the numbers, that's dealt with at the end, in the section "Number of deaths". Looks like we've got three so far for the taskforce/wikiproject. Huzzah!– Scartol • Tok 16:50, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

In case you haven't seen it, I just found out that Wikipedia:WikiProject East Timor already exists. – Scartol • Tok 14:51, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your attention to that detail. I'm always open to changes and improvements, of course, but I suppose I'd like to know what sorts of things you think need to be added/moved before they take place. I'm hoping to do some work on it tomorrow (Friday), so if you can give me some idea of what you've got in mind, that would be great. Cheers. – Scartol • Tok 12:38, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Two things:

The phrase "without an act of self-determination in East Timor" is problematic, since Indonesia claimed that there were two -- the declaration by APODETI and UDT leaders once they'd crossed into West Timor before the invasion, and the "Popular Assembly" after Dili had been seized. We should rephrase this to address that Indonesian perspective.
Insofar as I'm trying with great difficulty to resolve the current POV accusations from Gnangarra, I wonder if you'd be willing to leave the article as is for maybe a week or so, that I can address all of those concerns -- and then we could proceed with your take on what needs improvement? Cheers. – Scartol • Tok 14:08, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Regarding your first point, I agree – it was late at night “past my bedtime”. The lead does need a re-write in my opinion, but any tinkering aside, such work needs 100% well-rested clarity. It is more easily done not now, but once the rest of the article is worked through. I’ll most likely hold off for now. As for the second point, I don’t agree that I need to refrain from editing the article. There is a lot of work needing to be done to fix fundamental flaws (in part related to COI in my opinion), and such a request is a somewhat odd way to handle a credible COI complaint. --Merbabu (talk) 01:09, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough. Just thought I'd ask. – Scartol • Tok 02:24, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Let me ask you: Do you feel that I should abstain from working on other articles relating to East Timor? The last thing I want to do is make everything more complicated here, but I (immodestly) believe I can provide some important contributions to the sorely-lacking articles about East Timor. Just curious to get your opinion before I dedicate more time to such things. – Scartol • Tok 02:29, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Am I suggesting no contributions at all to East Timor articles from Scartol? My belief is there is certainly an important role for you. Does that actually need to be questioned? :-) But you are clearly very attached and passionate about an unarguably righteous but emotive cause, which perhaps has clouded much of the article. Obviously care though and the opinion and contributions of other editors does need to be used. If it can be said briefly, it means that there is a COI and for all its high quality aspects, the article still needs a lot of work. I’ve started some of this, and intent to continue - just not overnight. I'm trying to not spread myself so thin on WP so I can devote more time to it. --Merbabu (talk) 03:30, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Picture, simplify

Could you check it, I don't think it's free. 1) This picture, is in Vietnamese wikipedia, I need you to create it in English wikipedia and put it in article Dong Son culture and Dong Son drum, and could you show me how to do it. 2) I think Template:History of Malaysia should be simplify, as what you did in Template:History of Indonesia, compare this] and this.

I'm still lost, could you do it for me (upload picture). 96.229.179.106 (talk) 04:53, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

List of schools

I have suggested the discussion goes to the indonesia project noticeboard as the editing will have attracted WP 3RR status for the other editor - please lets keep the discussion to the noticeboard - and perhaps have a project level discussion on this - Satu Suro 11:37, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Lists

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Indonesia#Lists_in_Indonesia_Project - your comments would be appreciated - thanks Satu Suro 11:50, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for that - hope my spiel at the project noticeboard otherwise seems ok - please gmail me if there are any concerns Satu Suro 22:41, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Mediation with Pete and PJ?

Hi Merbabu. See you editing on David Hicks. I would like your input on whether it it worth seeking to continue into Mediation with Skyring/Pete and Prester John over misrepresenting sources and promoting mis-interpretations of policy such as "WP:WEIGHT overrides WP:NOR#Using sources" (Information in an article must be verifiable in the references cited.)

My recent post putting my view of Prester John's edits is here. [[2]] (The latest improperly sourced edit was Feb 3.) SmithBlue (talk) 02:30, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Further reading of Wikipedia:Requests for mediation suggests that MedCab would be a better option. Would still apreciate your input on worthwhileness. SmithBlue (talk) 03:17, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.