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Typos and corrections needed

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Per this edit, there is a typo (FAR) in the DYK section. Also, both this and the Monitoring page indicate that "Notifying YellowMonkey (or Art La Pella) was accepted by Arbcom as a monitoring method"; I have never seen any finding or indication or diff to back that up, and absent one, it should be removed. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:48, 16 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Also, a reminder that mentors should maintain the log here. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:51, 16 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Suggestions related to Alerts page

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Three issues as a result of me being the first guinea pig to use this page:

  1. Can the pre-load be added directly to the section where alerts are posted? I missed it the first time through and had to re-do my submission.
  2. Why is the Monitoring page gone, considering Motions 9 and 11? I suggest a return to the Monitoring page would have avoided the need for this alert.
  3. Mattisse entered a diff to a discussion on Moni3's talk page that I had never seen before and was uninvolved in, and had nothing to do with this issue whatsoever. But as I recall, I'm not supposed to respond to responses on the alert page, to avoid escalating. So where would I enter that feedback?

Can the page be adjusted to reflect these issues? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:06, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A fourth point. Silktork just entered a comment that needs my feedback. I'm not sure where I would add that? Can we get the page format corrrected? I'll wait, since this is the first use of this page. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:08, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Or am I intended to add responses to my original alert? I'm unclear on this, so will wait for feedback from y'all before adding anything else. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:15, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
G guy, the redirect that led to my confusion is here, in Motion 9; the User:Mattisse/Monitoring there is a redirect to this Alerts page (needs fixin' :) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:41, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I will fix that. Concerning your other comments...

  1. It was an oversight to leave in the section "Issues reported to mentors" (and its edit link) in place. Thanks for removing it: I have replaced it instead with another link to start a new section.
  2. For the record, I think we are agreed that WP:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Mattisse/Monitoring exists. I hope arbitrators and clerks will not object to the links we added to the Case.
  3. It is inappropriate for Mattisse to edit alerts, and I have removed her comment. The point is indeed to avoid escalation.
  4. The natural place to comment on alerts is here on the alert talk page. I have separated your reassurances and concerns into a separate section.

I frequently advise Mattisse not to post in haste as this can create unnecessary problems and work. I extend this advice to all, including myself and other advisors. Let us comment with consideration and aim for mutual understanding. Geometry guy 20:18, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

OK, good; I'm glad this worked as a guinea pig incident for getting the kinks out. If any of us had known sooner that Mattisse was concerned about an FA drive and being excluded from that, while I was responding to Moni about developing a guideline, we might have avoided all of this. I hope we can view it as a guinea pig case for how the mentoring pages work, and move on, but I still think it would be helpful if any issues were moved to the Monitoring page in the future, instead of spreading across talk pages. Thanks for everything, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:23, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You are welcome.
It isn't clear to me that any issue of FA drive exclusion is at all relevant: while I have ongoing concerns about Mattisse's contributions today, which I will discuss with her and other advisors, post-reaction and cause can be quite different. I also have some thoughts on this alert and the monitoring page, which I may add in due course below. Geometry guy 20:44, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I suggest (but could be wrong) that the concern over a potential FA drive exclusion is what made Mattisse's reaction hard to understand for, at least, me. I had no idea where she was coming from, or why she diffed me on your talk page, when I was dealing with a guideline, not an article. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:47, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I do not know what a "potential FA drive exclusion" means. That phrase is unfamiliar to me. However, I do not involve myself in anything that has to do with copy editing or contributing to articles that are seeking FA status as a matter of policy. Perhaps that is what you mean. Regards, —mattisse (Talk) 17:22, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments on Monitoring Alert

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Alert resolved. Please do not edit this discussion. Geometry guy 18:06, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In the meantime, if it will help calm Mattisse, I was completely unaware of any potential FA drive, and my "congratulations" on Moni3's talk page were specifically about her return to editing (following some earlier comments and a semi-break she had taken) via a new niche of carving out a guideline for similar articles, and were unrelated to any potential FA drive. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:20, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Another reason I think it important to use the Monitoring page is that Mattisse has repeatedly asked, and repeatedly been supplied with, a link to the 36-hour ban, but still says she can't find it. Registering such info on a Monitoring page might be easier for all involved. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:57, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I was concerned about the "lead editor" and ownership issues, as expressed in Moni3's response to your comment on her page congratulating her on the article, as she tried to clarify to you Sandy. I should make it clear that the article is not in the shape it is because of me. There are a score of editors who deserve barnstars for what they have done. You had said . Moni, I looked at the article, and was shocked that such a new article, with mainpage coverage, is in such beautiful shape. Congratulations Regards, —mattisse (Talk) 20:39, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
1. Your diffs are wrong. 2. You've altered a post well after several people have responded to it. More importantly and very troubling, 3. you have left off the key parts of my sentence following "Congratulations", which specifically show that I was congratulating Moni on her return to editing and work on a new niche for her (a guideline page). This could give the appearance that you are misrepresenting my post. [1] [2] SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:29, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think it misrepresents your post.[3] You say, Moni, I looked at the article, and was shocked that such a new article, with mainpage coverage, is in such beautiful shape. Congratulations ... I'm glad you're back in the saddle, carving out a new niche ... and she replies I'll consider your suggestions about hurricanes and floods, Sandy. I should make it clear that the article is not in the shape it is because of me. There are a score of editors who deserve barnstars for what they have done. Those are the diffs I have give above. —mattisse (Talk) 21:49, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Since we appeared to have been talking past each other (you seem to have been talking about/thinking about the article, while I was talking about Moni3's return to editing, taking a lead on that article after somewhat of a break, and taking the lead in starting a guideline for similar articles), I hope that you are reassured by Moni's response, where she clearly gives credit where credit is due. I now see that you may have been concerned that you were being excluded from any potential FA drive in spite of your contributions, but this was never the case, and if you had expressed that concern more clearly, we might have all gotten on the same page sooner. The first time I saw Ceranthor's diff was when you posted it here. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:43, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I do not want to see a repeat of the discussion which I archived on my talk page. I hope a line can be drawn here. Thank you both. Geometry guy 20:46, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I want to make it clear that I was not concerned about an FA for myself, as I do not believe in article ownership and no longer participate in FA, FAC or copy edit articles for FA editors. I am concerned about the casual way article ownership or "lead editor" is accorded to privileged editors. Regards, —mattisse (Talk) 20:52, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That article was also my return to editing after a "break" as I have not edited seriously since before my arbitration. But in contrast, I was banned from the article because I deferred to the article leader on the talk page. The article leader concept is not allowed to be mentioned or alluded to. —mattisse (Talk) 21:33, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oh dear, this is beginning to look all too familiar. There are no "privileged editors"; just take a look at my block log if you don't agree with me. Or your own. Neither are there "FA editors". There are just editors trying to do the best they can in an imperfect system. --Malleus Fatuorum 21:05, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
PS. Let me try and draw a distinction for you. Article ownership is a very different thing from article leadership. Every worthwile human endeavour needs leadership, and leadership does not imply a single all-powerful leader. Just a bunch of people who care. --Malleus Fatuorum 21:08, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

For information, I will share some of my views to help other editors understand them. For background related to this incident, there is a summary by SilkTork here. I do not believe that Mattisse has yet understood where the escalation really started and I intend to discuss that with her.

Here, I will comment only on the alert. In my view, it is up to mentors/advisors and Mattisse to make best use of the Monitoring page; so far (since Clarification) we have not used it. I think it may be a good idea to use the Monitoring page to record blocks and bans (even though this already takes place at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Mattisse#Log of blocks, bans, and restrictions) as more detail can be provided on the Monitoring page. However, the basic problem is a failure to read: the best place to alert an editor to an issue is their talk page and if an editor does not read carefully their own talk page, then there is not much more that can be done.

In addition to the Monitoring page, I consider Mattisse's talk page and mentor/advisor talk pages as appropriate places for mentors and Mattisse to discuss issues. Further, situations like this may require a rapid response, when there may only be one mentor/advisor online. Motion 7.1 places Mattisse under conduct probation and empowers each mentor/advisor to impose sanctions; sometimes any one of us may decide that this needs to be done swiftly.

It remains to discuss diffs to other pages: whether they are made on Mattisse's talk page, mentors' talk pages or the Monitoring page, they only involve other editors if such editors decide to involve themselves. For example, I have much less tolerance for escalation on my own talk page than on a community page, because I have complete editorial oversight there. I was disappointed to find the thread I archived there. That Mattisse initiated this thread indicates that her thinking was still wrong-headed. That the thread continued thereafter was regrettable. Geometry guy 21:49, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Well, apparently there is no appropriate place where I can discuss my concerns and obtain clarification. As far as reading my talk page, I do have a problem with eyesight and the way a comment is formated is very important. Your ban announcement was not formated in a way I can easily find and read. Even when hunting for it I have trouble. Regards, —mattisse (Talk) 21:57, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
And that summarizes why I'd like to see more use of the Monitoring page. That Mattisse used Geometry guy's talk page, to accuse me of encouraging or furthering ownership (a bad faith assumption, as well as an ongoing misread of what I wrote), and no other mentors appeared to be around to contain the issue (which is still going on), is my concern. These bad faith assumptions were supposed to stop; they're still going on, and I don't like to see my name smeared across popular talk pages. It belongs on the Monitoring page, where you all can deal with it without it being spread and escalating. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:59, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think you are making too much out of this. I am not accusing you of bad faith. The incident did not really involve you. I think this is what the arbitrators were talking about e.g. The general negative terms in which Mattisse and her mentors are regularly characterized in hyperbolic language is 'baiting' in my eyes. It is sure to frustrate, and get a rise out of, Mattisse and in the arb clarification. It seems you are seeking to escalate this situation which really involves an error of judgment on my part on an article talk page and the reaction of my mentors. It has nothing to do with you, SandyGeorgia. You added yourself for some reason. There is no "smearing" of your name. Please do not assume bad faith. Regards, —mattisse (Talk) 22:06, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
When you say "ownership is being assumed" and diff me as an example of destructive behavior pointed out by ArbCom in a misread of anything I've written on Moni's page, you are involving me.[4] That is why I want the mentors to begin to use the Monitoring page; you have been able to do this with no mentors around to contain it, and G guy once again having to carry all the work of addressing this. I follow G guy's talk for FA and GA issues, not so I can see my name trod upon. I opened this alert because most of the other mentors were uninvolved or unavailable as this issue spread to four pages and six threads. That should stop; that's why we have a Monitoring page. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:12, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This was a conversation between me and Geometry guy about what we loosely called "ownership". It did not concern you, SandyGeorgia. You have inserted yourself into our conversation and taken remarks personally. We were not talking about you; you were not on our minds. We were talking in general about Wikipedia practices. The terminology we were using was employed to convey concepts to one another, not to accuse anyone of anything. You are way over personalizing something that has nothing to do with you. I believe this is another case of characterizing me in negative terms, and taking one incident and talking about it in hyperbolic language. Such characterizations serve no good. As far as the diffs, they speak for themselves. They would not be an issue if you had not made them so. This had to do with my talk page comment on 2010 Haiti earthquake and only that originally and only that. Regards, —mattisse (Talk) 22:20, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
When you diff someone's post as an example of "destructive behavior", you involve them. Perhaps you'd like to retract now that it has been made clear that my "congratulations" to Moni were for her return to editing and initiating a guideline page, and also retract the ownership claim. Amazingly, you continue to stand behind your charges against me, in spite of how many times I've clarified to you exactly what I wrote. And where are all the mentors as this goes on? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:24, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I deeply regret making a comment that you have interpreted personally. You were furthest from my mind when I used the diff. I was concerned about the article 2010 Haiti earthquake and you happened to make a comment that encapsulated what I wanted to say to Geometry guy. As I say, the comment stands on its own, and can be interpreted however persons may wish. I apologize to you that you interpret it so negatively. I urge you not to personalize so. Regards, —mattisse (Talk) 22:30, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, you have the art of the non-apology apology and non-retraction down :)[5] Nice! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:32, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
When you make accusations Mattisse you either have to stand behind them, fight your corner and take the consequences, or withdraw them and apologise. Running and hiding behind big brother is what kids do. --Malleus Fatuorum 22:14, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Mattisse, could you please comment on this edit summary? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:28, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

(allow me) ass -> add. It's just a typo as the "s" is next to the "d" on a QWERTY keyboard; quite a good one, but no need to imagine an insult there. Yomanganitalk 23:08, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you! I urge again that good faith be assumed and that all parties avoid personalizing this. Thank you for your good sense. You assessed the situation correctly. Regards, —mattisse (Talk) 23:14, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Please stop

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Nothing good is coming out of this. There are no explanations, apologies or excuses needed - just silence. The more comments that people make here, the more hurt there is, the more time consumed, and the greater potential for disruption. If anyone feels there is anything important for public record that they are aware has not yet been covered, please email me and I'll discuss with them if it is helpful to be placed here. Otherwise, I think the most appropriate thing is for people to stop posting about this incident for at least 24 hours. SilkTork *YES! 23:00, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, please start. What is needed here is a discussion of the Alert lodged; whether the Monitoring page is being utilized to best benefit, and how escalation of these issues across talk pages can be prevented. Particularly, are all the mentors still on board? G guy has had to handle this almost alone, with the exception of a few posts from SilkTork. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:30, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
What is needed here is up to mentors/advisors to decide. Your comments will be taken into consideration, thank you. Geometry guy 23:47, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I see the Monitoring page is in use, so my concerns are resolved. I hope the Monitoring page will be used more, to avoid escalation across multiple talk pages. Best, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:32, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Close?

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I am satisfied with G guy's writeup and the resolution of this Alert, whenever y'all want to archive. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:56, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Music of Minnesota

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Mattisse, read the source carefully. Even I could tell that the two incorrectly tagged refs were correct :) Also, please try not to make general statements about source quality (better to stick to specific examples of poor sourcing without editorial comment). --RegentsPark (sticks and stones) 20:35, 28 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I raised the alert because SusanLesch has put hundreds of edits into trying to salvage the article, and she seems very stressed, as obvious by her comments on the FAR. She has been hit three times since she started working on the FAR by a dynamic IP damaging the article, and she seems to be growing very frustrated, so the timing of the incorrect tagging was unfortunate. I'm glad this incident seems contained, it can probably be archived whenever y'all want, but because SusanLesch seems pretty frustrated independently of the tagging, you might want to keep a close eye on things, so there's no escalation. Thanks, all ! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:56, 28 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks to all for working together so well. I'd like to add two small comments.
  • The current consensus advice seems a bit strong to me: it can be reasonable to raise general concerns based on indicative examples, but Mattisse should do this with sensitivity to the good faith contributions of article editors.
  • Learning to use {{talkback}} may be useful for Mattisse, as it may sometimes be better to direct attention to her comments in context, rather than quote them out of context.
These are just suggestions. Geometry guy 00:03, 29 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Many people are irritated by the {{talkback}} and are vocal about it. I would hesitate to use it for that reason. I believe there is even a user box against them. I know some people state they are against them on their user pages. Also, the templates don't work well unless one instantly accesses it. I have often gotten one, only to go to the user page and be faced with lengthy confusing text, none if it pertaining to me. Perhaps some users think that the template is an actual answer in itself and don't understand they are to leave something on their talk page. Anyway, I agree with the people that are vocal about disliking them. Regards, —mattisse (Talk) 00:15, 29 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I understand that concern. An alternative is a direct wikilink like this. This is also just a suggesion. Geometry guy 00:20, 29 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
<Comments moved to monitoring page> Geometry guy 01:31, 29 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

GeometryGuy, re your suggestions on 'conclusions'. Please go ahead and modify them. In this case, we may not even need a conclusion other than "Mattisse apologized" but I leave that to your discretion. --RegentsPark (sticks and stones) 13:45, 29 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The plan

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Re the alert raised by moni3. There are three separate questions here:

  1. Has the plan been violated? Looking at what Mattisse posted, it does appear that a warning should precede a block and that two or more advisors should consult before taking action. If that is indeed the case, then we mentors have not been acting as per the plan for a while. And, Mattisse's block should be lifted immediately.
  2. Mattisse wants to dissolve the mentorship. That is entirely her prerogative and there is no need to consult with arb about this. The plan is at her behest and if she wants to dissolve it, it should be immediately dissolved.
  3. Comments about other editors. I would cut her some slack here (of course, that's only what I would do). Never a good idea to kick a person when they are down. (My opinion entirely.) --RegentsPark (sticks and stones) 23:07, 11 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
On point 2: What is the alternative? What takes the place of the mentoring plan? This is why clarification is needed. --Moni3 (talk) 23:12, 11 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
What I meant was that that is not the concern of the mentors/advisors. The way I see it, our role ends if Mattisse dissolves the plan. --RegentsPark (sticks and stones) 23:31, 11 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
(I have removed it.) If there is still a problem in 24 hours, please advise. Geometry guy 23:29, 11 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am more than ready to discuss if the Plan is working or if it should now be dissolved. However, that discussion should involve Mattisse and a member of ArbCom as the Plan is under jurisdiction of ArbCom and there are implications for both Mattisse and ArbCom in dissolving the Plan. As Mattisse is currently under stress and possibly not able to visualise the implications of what might happen if the Plan is dissolved, such discussion should wait until she shows signs of being more reasonable. Bear in mind that without the Plan Mattisse will very likely be banned. SilkTork *YES! 09:46, 12 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think the issue is less whether the plan is working and more whether we, the mentors, are implementing it as per the arb case. If we, the mentors, are supposed to act after consultation and block only after warning Mattisse, we haven't been doing that. It is a simple enough question that does not need reference back to arbitrators or to Mattisse. --RegentsPark (sticks and stones) 15:09, 12 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Mattisse has been warned. Several times. I suppose we could put a sticky notice on her talk page which says: "If I am uncivil to another user I will be blocked," just so that she doesn't forget it. We could include the previous warnings she has had and the ArbCom statements about sanctions for her behaviour. But I think that would be demeaning. I think we would expect by now that she would cease from inappropriate behaviour, and would consult with us when she feels threatened or under stress. But none of this happens. Instead she misbehaves, and then expects nothing more than a "whoops, don't do it again." Indeed, if she gets a stronger sanction she pleads abuse of all sorts, unfair treatment, and picks at previous statements in a wikilawyering way to escape responsibility for her poor behaviour. She attempts to avoid responsibility by claiming a three month time limit on warnings, sanctions and advice. As far as I am aware I have not stepped down from my declared position of blocking her if I become aware that she is making uncivil and inappropriate comments about and to other editors. And as far as I am aware the ArbCom findings are still in force, such as : Users who have been sanctioned or legitimately criticized for improper conduct are expected to avoid repeating that behavior in their continued participation in the project. Similarly, a user who has promised to discontinue a certain type of problematic behavior on-wiki must make every effort to avoid returning to that pattern of behavior. Failure or inability to do so may necessitate imposing further restrictions or sanctions, or in the most serious cases, loss of the privilege of participating in the project. and The most recent blocks and unblocks of Mattisse, carried out by one or more of her mentors and advisors, are noted and endorsed. Mattisse's attention is drawn to items 2 and 3 of the report submitted by her mentors/advisors: "Mattisse to not post in anger or frustration anywhere on Wikipedia without having first consulted her mentors/advisors." and "Mattisse to not make any remark about another editor on Wikipedia that could be seen as negative without first consulting her mentors/advisors." Mattisse's mentors and advisors are asked to keep a log of such blocks and to return here if such conduct continues without signs of change.
I feel I have been upholding my side of the commitment. My intention has been both to protect Mattisse from having to return to ArbCom and face being banned, and to protect Wikipedia and the other editors here.
I think what we are acknowledging, however, is not that we shouldn't be employing approved and agreed sanctions to attempt to modify Mattisse's behaviour, but these sanctions are not working. If Mattisse reflects on what has happened and makes a statement apologising for her inappropriate remarks on Malleus's talkpage, then there may be some hope left for the PLan. But if she does not do that, then when this current 24 hour block is up, we can talk about dissolving the Plan and the case going back to ArbCom. SilkTork *YES! 16:00, 12 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
To clarify my last point. I think we should talk about the Plan regardless of what Mattisse does. My position would be that there would be room for discussion about keeping the Plan going if Mattisse showed signs of responding to sanctions. As time goes by we could look at lessening the sanctions. But if Mattisse shows no sign of responding to sanctions then I would fully support dissolving the Plan. SilkTork *YES! 16:10, 12 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, IMO, the plan is not working. It is far too easy to point Mattisse back to her advisors if an editor does not like what she is saying. Hardly the sort of thing that good discourse is made of and, clearly, the entire onus of assumption of good faith falls on Mattisse. All this is probably moot anyway since I notice that Mattisse is gone, for the time being anyway. BTW, I don't agree with your block extension. It was both unnecessary as well as provocative. --RegentsPark (sticks and stones) 16:50, 12 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]


User:Mattisse/Plan#Coping_techiques and User:Mattisse/Plan#Consequences_for_failure_to_adhere_to_plan say blocks should be imposed after warnings. User:Mattisse/Plan#Consequences_for_failure_to_adhere_to_plan also added "These measures will be applied by my mentors/advisers in consultation with each other. (Two or more mentors/advisers can decide.)". So it's clear that most of the blocks imposed by advisors have not complied with the letter of the plan.
However, so last Mattisse has not objected on this grounds. I would think that Mattisse has the current discussion on her watchlist. If there is any doubt on this, or a current block may prevent her from response here, we should request that she response at her Talk page.
If Mattisse has not objected, I suggest that only ArbCom have a right to object - and I suggest ArbCom will not intervene if incidents are being dealing promptly, fairly and following the principles spelt out in the initial ruling and the Clarification. I see no reason why anyone else should or can objective to a procedure that is slightly more stringent that described in the current of the Plan.
The phrase "Mattisse wants to dissolve the mentorship" is unclear, e.g. does it mean "replace some / all of the advisors" or "scrap / significantly change the Plan".
  • If "replace some / all of the advisors", IIRC Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Mattisse/Proposed_decision#Users_willing_to_act_as_advisers shows that ArbCom would have the the right and interest to been involved, but IIRC would have to decide that the situation would then propose rules.
  • If "scrap / significantly change the Plan", IIRC ArbCom required Mattisse to design and following the Plan, and I would thought that ArbCom would approve /disapprove any significant change, etc. I not expect that ArbCom would approve scrap the Plan until its objectives are met, i.e. until Mattisse's conduct is fairly typical. If Mattisse unilaterally scrap / significantly change the Plan, the mostly consequence would be that ArbCom bans Mathelping tisse from all activity WP for a very long time, or possibly undefinitely.
In other words, the advisors should forget all the "ifs" and "but" and focus on helping Mattisse to improve her conduct. --Philcha (talk) 17:14, 12 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That last statement makes sense to me. Thank you, Philcha. I'm going to make a start by unblocking Mattisse (hope that's ok with you SilkTork) since the plan does call for consultation with advisors - even if we ignore the warnings part. Unfortunately, and I speak only for myself, I think I've failed as an advisor and mentor wrt the objective of channeling Mattisse's behavior by simultaneously taking on a larger and smaller role than I should have. --RegentsPark (sticks and stones) 17:44, 12 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
(ec - not my page!) ::Mattisse loose a volley of unpleasant comments on 11 Feb and IMO that was an emergency. I support SilkTork's 1st block in order to limit the damage. Then we collectively spent too much attention on the "legal" issue and far too little on getting Mattisse to remedy the damage. As Mattisse was unwilling remedy the damage, I think SilkTork had impose the 2nd block.
The comments were posted by Mattisse at other editor's Talk page, and Mattisse was in the wrong from the start. Some 3rd parties then posted at the same Talk (not Mattisse's) some hostile. If such comments appears on any of Mattisse's pages (Talk, any of the Plan or Monitoring pages), I'd tell to back out and we'd deal with it. But in this case Mattisse was in the wrong and we have not have a case to fight.
Like SilkTork, I'm concern about real improvement in Mattisse's conduct. In the short time we'll have to fight fires, but ArbCom won't let that continue for ever - if we were willing. We need to make Mattisse realise that she needs to the real work, and most of that willing be in her mind. --Philcha (talk) 17:49, 12 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Part of the problem is that we come in only when things go out of control, we are forced into a punitive role rather than an advisory role (which is not something I signed up for). For example, at this point, it would have made sense for Mattisse to step back and ask an advisor to evaluate the situation. One or more of the advisors could have weighed in and perhaps the situation wouldn't have resulted in Mattisse posting on Malleus' page (I honestly don't understand that at all). To the extent that Mattisse does not herself initiate a consultation with advisors, the plan is not working. And, IMO, that is the only way that this advisory relationship can work. Anyway, let's see what Mattisse does. She has been unblocked and the proverbial ball is now in her court. --RegentsPark (sticks and stones) 18:23, 12 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

While I do not agree with, I do not condone RegentsPark for undoing the block - blocking is a controversial and unpleasant tool, and I also recognise that it must have taken some thought by RegentsPark to reverse my action, but it does signify the difficulties we face when we cannot agree among ourselves. I think we have reached the end of the Plan. I feel we have shown that neither by discussion, nor by negotiation, nor example, nor by use of sanctions have we been able to modify Mattisse's behaviour. And Mattisse herself has lost confidence in the Plan.

I feel we need a formal discussion to agree on dissolving the Plan, and we must inform ArbCom what is happening. Mattisse should be part of this discussion, however I think we should give her some time to collect her thoughts. I suggest we start the discussion on Monday 15th Feb and notify the other mentors/advisors what is happening. SilkTork *YES! 18:34, 12 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think we've reached a crossroad here with Mattisse and the plan, and I see the unblock as a good faith gesture to Mattisse more than anything else. It's up to her to do what she wants to do (go back to arb, stick with the plan the way it is being run, or not return to wikipedia) but I do think that the choice should be hers. I'm dismal about the prospects of the plan but am willing to stay the course if that's what she wants. --RegentsPark (sticks and stones) 18:44, 12 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have commented on the Monitoring talk page. Geometry guy 20:20, 12 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Dissolve the Plan

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My advisors, while well meaning, have not been following the plan. They have been blocking me after a very stale warning for edits the context of which they appear not to have taken into account, and without even bothering to consult with each other. Their existence gives editors who disagree with me a club to hold over my head. I have, in good faith, followed the plan for months, but it is time for it to end. I disavow it, and dismiss them, with my thanks for their well meaning efforts. If anyone cares to ask ArbCom for action, they are free to, but in the meantime I intend to edit as usual.

Regards, —mattisse (Talk) 20:13, 12 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Mattisse, I have commented on the monitoring talk page. Warnings do not go stale and advisors are not required to consult. I suggest you consider very seriously whether you really want to abandon your plan.
  • Irrespective of whether ArbCom is asked to take action, you are still under conduct probation for one year unless ArbCom decides otherwise.
  • Regards. Geometry guy 20:24, 12 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion post indef block of Mattisse

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Disclaimer: this thread does not strictly concern an alert and any discussion here may be moved elsewhere if a more appropriate forum is found.

Comments on the way forward are welcome here. They will be viewed by advisors and arbitrators who are watchlisting this page. Geometry guy 21:52, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • The mentorship experiment (in my opinion) is over. My suggestion is that the case go back to the community to decide whether Mattisse should be allowed to continue to edit on wikipedia. --RegentsPark (talk) 22:08, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments moved from mentoring page:

These were not "alternate accounts." User set up not just one, but three accounts editing on Venezuelan topics: Mr. Unsigned Not worth it (talk · contribs) ChrisCopo (talk · contribs) and Charles Rodriguez (talk · contribs). User apparently did this to avoid scrutiny that is on the primary account and avoid prohibitions on attacking other users. For example:

hello, I thought anyone could edit but it is not true? This belongs to SandyGeorgia? Charles Rodriguez (talk) 18:24, 27 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

See also. There is no justification for three (known) accounts in this area, and user has conducted herself in a grossly deceptive manner. Given the history of socking, this was entirely unacceptable. Note also, that one of the recently blocked accounts first edited in October 19, 2009. Given the age of this account, there are very probably sleepers beyond the reach of checkuser. Cool Hand Luke 16:52, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This Charles Rodriguez section heading may have been missed by observers, since I changed it. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:20, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have restored an accidentally deleted section[6][7] and commented in support of the block and the way it was handled. In due course, arbitrators will need to decide what this means in terms of sanctions, but with an indef block in place there is no rush. Geometry guy 20:56, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't mean to open old wounds, but why wasn't anything done in late 2006 when all of this came to light?[8] Viriditas (talk) 20:10, 2 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There was an arbitration case Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Starwood a very ugly case, I'd very much like to avoid a repetion of that. --Salix (talk): 20:26, 2 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Understood, but all the warning signs were there and the problem continued - for years. Just want to make sure it doesn't happen again. Viriditas (talk) 20:33, 2 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I thought anyone could edit wikipedia

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A familiar theme is lodged at one of Mattisse's targets, Malleus Fatuorum. [9] SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:25, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Indef blocked. --Andy Walsh (talk) 01:40, 4 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
As this now appears to be resolved, I'd like to record some comments for future information.
Please check for any errors on my part. Geometry guy 22:12, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
So presumably between the time she last edited as Mattisse and created Charles Rodriguez a few hours later on the same day, many more sleeper accounts could have been created? Also, University of Arizona could be accounted for by the grandchildren. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:30, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm trying not to make any presumptions above, nor draw conclusions. Those who believe QuattroBajeena is a sock of Mattisse need to be aware that this involves a quite different timezone to Mattisse's normal editing. It could involve meat puppets, or travel, but the jury is out as far as I am concerned. Geometry guy 22:43, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm more concerned about how many sleeper accounts were created in between her last edit as Mattisse, and the creation of Charles Rodriguez ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:44, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
See above and below. Geometry guy 20:51, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
G-guy, thanks for your notes. Please do examine the editing behavior of some of Mattisse's other socks. You will see her ability to adjust her editing style to avoid detection. For example, in edits like this, she uses emoticons which is something the Mattisse account never does (to my knowledge). In other posts, she introduces other atypical anomalies like all-lower-case typing and never using edit summaries. However, the initial layer of deception always peels away as socks cannot avoid entering the fray every time. I have been working to make the U of A connection but without success. The IP might just be a random troll. They have a long history of disruptive editing, including removing perceived NPAs on pages they've never edited. --Andy Walsh (talk) 03:59, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sums it up; she's unstoppable, been at it for years, adapts her style, until she eventually outs herself. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:16, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The problem with this approach if that, if anything can be a mark of The Beast, innocents will be condemned. At some point you have to return to basics such as "focus on the content, not the editor". For example this link and this one are currently dead and need to be fixed / replaced. I sincerely hope that checking verification is not a mark of The Beast, as I'd burn to-day. --Philcha (talk) 07:03, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Try to stay on topic, Philcha, and avoid such hyperbole and polemics. We will be dealing with a very big problem for a very long time, and getting a handle on it as quickly as we can, without any more interference like the above from you, will be helpful. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:12, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
SandyGeorgia, if you prefer a more literal style: if a profilic sockpuppeteer can simulate so many styles, eventually other editors who have some similarities will be unjustly accused or more; and, at or before this point, the effort would be spent on in resolving specific content or conduct issues; if an editor often creates similar content or conduct problems, we can resolve these without assuming the present of a sockpuppeteer who can simulate so many styles that he/she can everyone or noone.
In any case this link and this one are currently dead and it would be more productive to fixing them, per "focus on the content, not the editor". --Philcha (talk) 16:50, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Andy, you are welcome. I am aware that sock accounts attempt to disguise their origin. You are also likely aware that the IP is probably shared (and may even be dynamic), hence the history provides no useful information. The goof about not understanding talk pages, and this addition of unsourced content are very uncharacteristic of Mattisse, and there isn't much that is characteristic. If this account is related to Mattisse, I think it is more likely a meat puppet than a sock (see also below). Geometry guy 20:51, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Looking again at this it seem to be very scant evidence that this is a sock of Mattisse, it just seems to rest on this edit [10]
What exactly are you accusing me of having a conflict of interest on? And accusing a new user of being a sockpuppet for voting in a Request for Comment is absolutely being paranoid. If you can't see that, perhaps you need to take a step back as well? I thought that anyone could edit Wikipedia
The fact that Malleus is involved needs to be discounted as it was Malleus who first questioned Quattro edit on the RfC [11]. This seems a very low barrier for evidence to me. Talking image (talk · contribs) on the other hand has some key characteristics of Mattisse, this edit[12] is something which I told Mattisse how to do. --Salix (talk): 22:02, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that the U of A connection makes this situation cloudy. I'm willing to accept that QuattroBajeena may be a meatpuppet or a sock of some other sympathetic person. Not a new user by any means. However, the talk page goof and unsourced content don't do anything for me. Mattisse often would feign ignorance about how this site works, although less so in recent times. I've read back through her whole history. QuattroBajeena's actions fit the pattern, including entering the fray soon after account creation and lashing out at critics with the typical perception of cabalism ("Malleus and co."). Unquestionably a disruptive sock or meatpuppet in my opinion. Salix, the "Malleus and co." remark makes it clear that the involvement with him is not a coincidence. --Andy Walsh (talk) 22:35, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Straight to Malleus, Moni and FAC

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Talking image (talk · contribs), new editor, straight to marking FA citations as failing verification and dead links (her preferred editing), participating at FAC, and then within days, referencing Moni and Malleus. I don't know how to check if the account was created in the Feb 25 window. See Brad Pitt (at FAC) and Lion (gee, a Cas liber (one of her targets) - Marskell FA ... fancy that). Isn't there some way to find all the accounts created in the Feb 25 window? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:22, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Created on 17:43, 1 March 2010. Ucucha 04:23, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
How do you check that? So, someone has changed IPs ... we need a CU to get the new IP? SandyGeorgia (Talk)
User rights log, in link "logs" at top of Special:Contributions/Talking image. Anyway, Andy has already blocked this account. Ucucha 04:29, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This should be checked vs the Arizona IP ... maybe Mattisse decided to visit the grandkids. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:30, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
She tagged exactly as always, but adapted her edit summary. Persistent! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:33, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Almost identical monobook to Mattisse's; some new editor. So, don't we need to file a new CU to see where she's editing from, or is it under the arbs oversight of the case to just deal with this without the paperwork? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:16, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think it's clear someone with CU rights needs to get interested in this. There is a potential for long-term abuse and wasting of time when we should be out writing and reviewing articles. --Andy Walsh (talk) 16:41, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
My thinking is that building the timeline will aid the CUs, as this will be a long-term problem. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:58, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Does anyone have time to build a timeline? We'll be dealing with sleeper socks and new IP accounts for a very long time. A table with
  • Date
  • Time
  • Account
  • Description
  • Sample evidence
will help us identify the sleeper accounts (for example, those started in the missing hours of Feb 25) as they emerge, and request CUs on the new accounts. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:15, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If Talking image (talk · contribs) is a sock of Mattisse (and the last edit is very characteristic of Mattisse, so I consider this very likely) then the creation date demonstrates that Mattisse has access to an IP address which can create accounts for her. I think these are grounds to involve someone with CU rights. Until this is resolved, the issue as to whether Mattisse created a number of accounts on Feb 25 (to evade an account creation block) is moot. Geometry guy 20:56, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I haven't taken the time to build this timeline, but because this is likely to be a recurring problem, I would think it best to present a full, well-prepared case to SPI, to avoid later duplication. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:59, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I suggest you open an SPI case, or add onto one (if there already is one) so that all this can be centralized for posterity. The CUs have been notified, so more eyes should be looking. KnightLago (talk) 22:37, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm working on compiling a timeline to lay all of this out cohesively. For the record, the old original request is at Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Mattisse. --Andy Walsh (talk) 23:10, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Go ahead and file a new SPI case to clear the drawer, and work on the timeline there. KnightLago (talk) 00:24, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Andy, can you get to this now, or should I? We have QuattroBajeena (talk · contribs), 150.135.210.16 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) and Talking image (talk · contribs). For evidence, for now, we can just link to these two threads. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:34, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Also, old cases (likely some missed) at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Mattisse and Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Mattisse 2 SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:39, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Okey dokey, I'm preparing to submit momentarily, only the skeleton. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:43, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

SPI

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SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:57, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]


Great. I found an experienced CU to take a look. They should be along shortly. KnightLago (talk) 01:01, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, KL, but since we may be at this for a while, I want to make sure we present everything well summarized (since it's astounding this got so far) -- submitting a CU is a mess ! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:22, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Highlighting this diff from the new sock drawer. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:41, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'd like to look into the possibility that Ashton 29 (talk · contribs), Youshotandywarhol (talk · contribs), and Chaelee (talk · contribs) are related, and possible socks of Mattisse. Recently Mattisse and socks have gotten into editing film and actor articles. See contribs for Talking image (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), for example, a confirmed Mattisse sock who edited several film-related articles; Charles Rodriguez (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) spent most of its time editing a film article. More later. --Andy Walsh (talk) 14:10, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

So Yzak Jule (talk · contribs) and Zengar Zombolt (talk · contribs) who I've been wrestling with, also turn out to be socks of Mattisse. This was a clever one - the original Yzak Jule account changed its name to Zengar Zombolt, then a new user account was created at Yzak Jule, swearing blind it was a completely different person (until some kindly checkuser came along). Zombolt was - without being connected to Mattisse at all - indeff'd for being unutterably unpleasant to people with Aspergers syndrome. Great. Why is anyone talking about letting Mattisse back. Ever. Elen of the Roads (talk) 18:41, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Out of curiosity, is someone talking about letting Mattisse back? --RegentsPark (talk) 19:31, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Wouldn't surprise me in the least, considering the history. We still have Salix saying she "reformed" until she succumbed to "stress". SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:36, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Why did this go on for four years, when the evidence was clear in 2006, and even clearer in 2009? Perhaps the facilitators/enablers can respond to that (or at least review some FACs, since everyone else is busy cleaning up the mess). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:46, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If you notice there was a break in the use of socks, between 2006 and July 2009. She did try to reform but stress led her to revert to socks again.
Yzak Jule and Zengar Zombolt both seem odd to me, Yzak's sole mainspace edit was on some obscure manga comic which is well away from Mattisses usual area of interest, Zengars sig (DaiZengarSmite evil) is much fancier than Mattisse is use to and could well be beyond her technical capability. There also seems to be a Korean pop culture theme to Zengars edits [13] which all seem to point someone with a very different age and location. --Salix (talk): 19:20, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ummmm ....hullllo ... just because no CUs were run, and socks weren't detected, does not mean she "reformed". And have you completely forgotten the "granny defense" that you all fell for? Grandchildren on board is just a bit obvious, no? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:29, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Can I please request that everyone stay on topic here? Any criticism of individual editors should be discussed on user talk pages, not here. Thanks to all for your patience at a frustrating time. Geometry guy 19:39, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Discussion moved to User talk:Geometry guy. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:00, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Salix, with all due respect, isn't it time to wake up and smell the coffee? The connection between Zengar and Mattisse is clear, and I will soon have my table updated with the details. Look at the topic patterns... psychology, religion. "I'd love to improve my editing if someone would like to tell me what it is I'm doing wrong." Dude, sound at all familiar??? It's clear from looking at the table that there is some subsection of accounts that Mattisse is not in direct control of, that center around the Arizona IP address. But they are meatpuppets if they aren't direct socks. --Andy Walsh (talk) 20:07, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I came here by way of MuZemike's and Risker's talk pages, and I was the main target of the disruption by Yzak/Zengar. I have to say that I share the concerns raised by Salix. There's no question that Yzak/Zengar were socks, but I'm not convinced that they are the same socks or meats as the others related to this investigation. I've explained why on those other talk pages. And if I'm wrong about that and in fact this was all one nasty web, then please let me ask: why was I selected as a target? I'd like to understand that, at least. Yzak/Zengar basically existed to harass me, in the wake of the Something Awful/Crucifixion/Anime mess. I'm quite sure that I never had a run-in with any of the other accounts pre-Yzak. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:17, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There's no rhyme or reason to how Mattisse selected her targets, or anything else. I became a target because she asked me to mentor her back in 2007, and then when she lodged an attack on another editor and wouldn't come clean with me about her socks, I backed out of mentoring. For that, FAC paid the price for years. Don't waste time looking for rhyme or reason here. Instead, look at the evidence. 1) She is a long-time, prolific sockmaster, that will stop at nothing. 2) When she is caught, she turns apologetic and sucks in her enablers. 3) She holds grudges. Forever. 4) She has grandkids on board. 5) No amount of patience or kindness or mentorship or understanding will affect her behavior. End of story. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:26, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Strange. What you described begins with an interaction between you and her. I don't think there was anything like that with me (and Yzak/Zengar was convincingly masculine by the way). --Tryptofish (talk) 20:29, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There wasn't in my case either: to this day, I do not know why she chose me to email requesting help back in 2007. I do know she e-mails everyone in town, and I do know that no amount of my kindness, perseverance, understanding or patience towards her stopped her in her mission to destroy FAC in order to get at me for backing out of mentorship. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:38, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm glad I never enabled e-mail. Here's something I thought of: it might be appropriate to check User:Muslim Wookie. This was an entirely civil account that appeared in the midst of the Yzak business that followed me from page to page and showed a peculiar mixture of savvy and naivete. Also User:Greenelburrito, at times clearly part of SA and near-illiterate, and at times very competent at editing techniques. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:42, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Helpful, thanks ... we'll be cleaning out this sock drawer for a very long time, and Laser's page will help everyone recognize the classic behavior. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:44, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
About the information just added to the sandbox table, I want to point out some things about the chronologies of the Yzak and Zengar accounts. The Yzak account actually was the one that started first. Yzak then changed the account name, openly and above board, upon getting back from a recent block, to Zengar. Because the account history migrated with the name change, it just looks like Zengar was the older account. The "new" Yzak came into being last week when the person came back and realized that the Yzak account had not been indef blocked along with Zengar. Both accounts are named after anime characters. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:41, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Since there is so much going on here, it might help Andy if you add such info at User talk:Laser brain/Sandbox. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:59, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Also, the issue with Asperger's is a specific one, not necessarily one about psychology in general, growing out of pejorative parlance at the Something Awful forums. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:16, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Additional CUs

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I've now looked at the two accounts mentioned by Tryptofish, and agree they should be looked at. So we have:

Will wait 'til we hear from Risker. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:30, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I suggest adding this to the SPI case again. That will keep it centralized for future CUs. KnightLago (talk) 23:20, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have always been opposed to formally requesting a CU during an ongoing FAC ... as the FAC delegate, I shouldn't do that. If someone else wants to ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:21, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I will. Ucucha 23:25, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
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