User talk:Nlu/archive75

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January 2014

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• Menxia Pingzhangshi'' (同中書門下平章事). Wang Jipeng was additionally given the titles of ''You Pushe'' (右僕射, one of the heads of the executive bureau of government (尚書省, ''Shangshu Sheng''), with Li Min

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Suggested category diffusion

Hi again, if you would like a category to try to figure out how to diffuse, I would suggest taking a look at Category:People executed for murder, as that category could certainly use some more subcategories.Hoops gza (talk) 19:28, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

I would suggest by country — although one problem I have with the category, fundamentally, is that every country (and sometimes, internal divisions of a country, as is the case with the United States) defines murder differently, such that someone who may be guilty of "murder" in one country may not be in another. --Nlu (talk) 21:35, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

How about by nationality?Hoops gza (talk) 00:07, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

That's kind of like two sides of the same coin. I tend to think that equally good arguments can be made for both, and perhaps both should be done. --Nlu (talk) 00:37, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

I thought that you would be the one who would like to diffuse the category since you have done so many of these.Hoops gza (talk) 17:24, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

:-) That is true. I'll think about it a bit more. Thanks. --Nlu (talk) 19:06, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

generation name inconsistencies

Do you know why Li Keyong's adopted sons have 2 different generation names, "Si" and "Cun"? I noticed a few other siblings in the 5d10k period have inconsistent generation names; perhaps it's a rule not strictly followed in the old times? Are there other precedents that you know of? Timmyshin (talk) 14:16, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

To be honest, I am not sure that I accept 100% the traditional assertion that Li Siyuan (or any other "Si" adoptive son) was truly an adoptive son of Li Keyong's; they might be more like the "Shao" generals that Li Cunxu granted names to, whereas only Zhu Youqian was given the name of Li Jilin. (I.e., it may be the "adopted son" version of what happened was a post-hoc invention by Li Siyuan to justify taking imperial title.) Li Siyuan himself somewhat inconsistently suggested that he was adopted by Li Keyong's father Li Guochang. But without convincing evidence otherwise, I do still write that he's an adoptive son even though I harbor the suspicions as I mentioned. In any case, the Lis were Shatuos, and while they were Sinicized Shatuo - a lot more Sinisized than other non-Han people of the times - they certainly didn't follow all traditional Chinese customs. The two different characters might be one sign of this. (Note that there plenty of contradictory assertions with regard to other Li family members' relationships as well. Li Sizhao, for example, was asserted in most traditional sources to be an adoptive nephew (adoptive son of Li Kerou), but on Li Keyong's tomb was apparently asserted to be a son (doesn't preclude being an adoptive son). (Of course, Han or non-Han, traditional boundaries between sons and nephew were not strict, so the tomb assertion does not preclude him being a nephew, although it does make it odd.) Somewhat the opposite is true with regard to Meng Zhixiang's wife - other editors assert her to be a daughter of Li Keyong's. I actually still believe she was a niece, not a daughter, notwithstanding the assertion on her tomb, but I am not going to create an edit war by reasserting her to be a niece either on English or Chinese Wikipedia without stronger proof. --Nlu (talk) 17:47, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

Another suspicion I have (as an alternative theory, or in combination with what I wrote above) - which is speculation, of course - is that perhaps Fu Cun -> Li Cunshen was the first adopted among the "Cun" generals. It was when Li Keyong did so that he perhaps came to like the "Cun" character and therefore named all further adoptive sons - and his own biological sons - using "Cun." In any case, though, I do believe the "13 Taibaos" story to be complete nonsense - post-hoc Ming-created legend - because it lists Li Cunxu as the 3rd Taibao when he was far younger than most of the adoptive sons. --Nlu (talk) 17:52, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for you reply. It seems that Li Keyong's various adopted grandsons (sons of adopted sons) also have widely divergent generation names, perhaps reflecting the fact that they were not related by blood. I do think that your mention of the possibility that Li Siyuan might have been adopted by Li Guochang rather than Li Keyong explains the different generation names. (i.e. those adopted by Li Guochang or Li Kerou were "Si", while those adopted by Li Keyong were "Cun". As far as the question of Li Sizhao being adopted nephew or adopted son, I think both could be reasonably valid if Li Kerou died when Li Sizhao was still young (I don't know whether it's true).) I also think your "Fu Cun being the first" hypothesis makes a lot of sense.

There are a few of these inconsistencies in 5d10k that I noticed. In particular, why were Li Jing's first few sons Li Hong__ and the last few sons Li Cong__? Was Li Yu originally Li Hongjia rather than Li Congjia, and changed his name with his younger brothers after 960 when "Hong" became a Song Dynasty taboo due to Zhao Hongyin? I didn't find anything on that. Also, what's with Meng Zhixiang's sons, some Meng Yi___, the others Meng Ren___? Are they not Han Chinese? There may be other cases with Northern Han/Later Han but I think they could be explained by naming taboos. Oh, also the Tang Dynasty founder Li Yuan's sons. Appreciate your input as always.Timmyshin (talk) 03:09, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

No real idea about Li Jing. A very speculative thought: perhaps Li Hongjia (whose birth year I don't know, and I'm not in shape physically right now to chase down references to) was named by his great-grandfather Xu Wen? And subsequently, Li Jing did not want to name any further sons Li Hong___ because of Li Hong being a posthumously honored Tang emperor? Meng Zhixiang's situation may be that the first few sons' names were actually "child names" never intended to be permanent (similar to Guo Wei's sons' child names). Li Yuan's sons — no idea. But the first few sons had "meaningful" names (at least, more meaningful) than the younger sons. It may be only later that he decided to have them share a character after he became emperor. (Which, of course, doesn't explain Li Lingkui, who was an exception.) --Nlu (talk) 03:17, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

You mean Li Hongji. (There's no Li Hongjia, I just speculated that was Li Yu's first name without any proof.) I think you are spot on with respect to Li Hong! Because Li Yu was the first one born on/after the establishment of Southern Tang (granted the state was first Qi, but I think by the time Li Yu was old enough to have a name, it was already Tang). As far as Meng's first few sons, I'm not sure of that explanation, are child names supposed to share characters like that? Guo's young sons had names like Qingge, Yige (青哥, 意哥). Timmyshin (talk) 04:38, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

As it turned out, as I was writing the article for Chen Jue, I realized that my theory cannot be correct, because Li Jing bestowed the name of Li Hongyi on Li Renda long after the founding of Southern Tang. But perhaps, then, that was the incident that soured Li Jing on "Hong" as a generational character? --Nlu (talk) 23:31, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

I can not find out information An Lushan was killed on 29 January 757 (正月甲寅日) in Zizhi Tongjian, vol. 219 as mentioned in article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 113.168.98.220 (talk) 09:45, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

I may be reading too much into it (and I think I may have taken this interpretation from Bo Yang), but his death was announced on 乙卯, and I thought that it is fairly clear from context that the death happened the night prior. --Nlu (talk) 17:00, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

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Ming dynasty descendants

Can you find the geneaology of the Marquises of Extended Grace to the last Ming Emperor whom they were descended from? I need a list of their direct lineal ancestors. zh:延恩侯 zh:朱之璉. I also need to clarify the relations between the Marquises themselves, I want to extend the Ming Empero's family tree at Chinese emperors family tree (late).

And what is the concensus in China about the Tang Emperor's claims of descent from the Longxi Li clan of Li Gao, Li Guang, and Laozi? The Tang Emperors explicitly claimed their paternal lineage was Han and denying accusations of Xianbei paternal ancestry when Falin tried to accuse them of being Xianbei patrilineally during an interrogation. There are already articles for House of Zhu and House of Zhao, we should also have an article on the Li lineage (Longxi) since they played an important military and political role during their time. On the Tang dynasty article, it doesn't mention any of this background information about how the Tang claimed descent from Laozi to emphasize that they were Han and patronized Daoism because of this claimed ancestry, instead we have a lously sentence about the "Northwestern aristocracy" with no explanation of their origins and backgrounds. Apparently the people editing that article like to keep things ambiguous as possible.

The complete tree for the Tang Emperor's ancestry back to Laozi is on the talk page of Chinese emperors family tree (middle)]Rajmaan (talk) 04:07, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

As far as the Tang emperors are concerned, I would be extremely suspicious of the genealogy before Li Gao. But I don't see a particular reason to doubt the genealogy between Li Gao and Li Yuan — there was no particular political usefulness to claim a connection to Li Gao, and once Li Bao became a Northern Wei subject, the genealogy from that point on was fairly traceable. But that really isn't a subject that interests me all that much because most Tang ancestors between Li Xin and Li Hu are uninteresting, as far as I am concerned.

As far as the Ming descendants that you mentioned — until you brought it to my attention, I actually was unaware of them. I'd be willing to help depending on what information you want. Just a list of names down each generation? That's pretty much all I can help with because it's not an area of history that is familiar to me. --Nlu (talk) 04:15, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

In fact, the Chinese Wikipedia articles (without citing sources) indicates that the general belief now is that in fact, those marquesses were not Ming descendants. --Nlu (talk) 04:22, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

i have compiled sources about it on Talk:House of Zhu. According to them, the Ming Imperial family numbered over 80,000 people by the end of the dynasty, and acted as a massive parasitic force literally sucking free grain stipends from the government and doing nothing constructive at all. (The Tang Imperial family limited Imperial status only to Li clan members who were closely related to the Emperor within several generations, but the Ming followed the Song model of granting status and free stipends to every single member of their clan, no matter how distant from the reigning Emperor) Thesources I collected about the Marquises do not bring up any doubts about their ancestry.

The Qing killed the direct descendants of the last Ming Emperor and all the Zhu princes with enfeoffed fiefs who resisted, who were in the direct line of succesion to the last Emperor, but there was no way they were going to hunt down 80,000 clansmen one by one scattered all over China. The Qing killed Zhu Cihuan 朱慈焕 and his immediate family since he was the last son of the Chongzen Emperor and the last legitimate succesor, but the other clansmen were of no concern.

Are you sure the article isn't implying that the Marquises were not in the direct line of succesion to the last Ming Emperor, and were only a collateral branch?

I want a list like the one for Zhao Mengfu over here zh:趙孟頫#.E7.A5.96.E4.B8.8A Rajmaan (talk) 04:34, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

The articles state (without citing sources) that they were not true Ming descendants because they didn't fit the Ming imperial clan's generational naming pattern. As I've said, it's an area of history that I am fairly unfamiliar with so I can't judge whether that claim was accurate. --Nlu (talk) 04:38, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

But in any case, here's a list given in the Chinese Wikipedia article zh:延恩侯:

1. Zhu Zhilian (朱之璉)
2. Zhu Zhen (朱震), son of Zhu Zhilian
3. Zhu Shaomei (朱紹美), son of Zhu Zhen
4. Zhu Yifeng (朱儀鳳), nephew of Zhu Shaomei (article does not give name of Zhu Yifeng's father)
5. Zhu Yurui (朱毓瑞), son of Zhu Yifeng
6. Zhu Xiuji (朱秀吉), son of Zhu Yurui
7. Zhu Xiuxiang (朱秀祥), younger brother of Zhu Xiuji
8. Zhu Yitan (朱貽坦), cousin of Zhu Yifeng — and it is not clear whether this is a first cousin, second cousin, or more distant
9. Zhu Shugui (朱書桂), cousin of Zhu Yitan's father — and it is not clear whether this is a first cousin, second cousin, or more distant
10. Zhu Heling (朱鶴齡), adoptive son of Zhu Shugui
11. Zhu Chengrui (朱誠端), grandson of Zhu Heling's cousin — and it is not clear whether this is a first cousin, second cousin, or more distant
12. Zhu Yuxun (朱煜勛), son of Zhu Chengrui

As you can see, this genealogy is confused enough that, while I do admit that this particular noble title is notable, I am not so sure that it's worth it — or possible — to trace out an actual genealogy. --Nlu (talk) 04:49, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

I have a source saying that the Later Jin Emperors enfeoffed the Tang descendants as Dukes, [1], who were those people? Rajmaan (talk) 21:58, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

Beats me. Could be genuine Tang descendants, or could be invented. But I am not aware of any records that gave further identification. --Nlu (talk) 04:03, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

I dug a little deeper. This is the relevant equivalent passage from the History of the Five Dynasties — which is literarily less elegant than the New History of the Five Dynasties but tends to be more historically accurate and descriptive:

是日，詔曰：「應天開國，恭己臨人，宜覃繼絕之恩，以廣延洪之道。宜於唐朝宗屬中取一人封公世襲，兼隋之酅公為二王後，以後周介公備三恪，主其祭祀，及赴大朝會。」（《五代會要》載原敕雲：其唐朝宗屬中，舊在朝及諸道為官者，各據資歷，考限滿日，從品秩序遷。已有出身，任令參選。）

(If you want a translation, let me know and I can do it later; I'm not in a mode to do so right now — tired, and I'm at a coffee stop, basically, on my way home .) The gist of it basically indicates that Shi Jingtang ordered that a Tang descendant be found and be created a duke, but that doesn't show that a Tang descendant was in fact found or created a duke. Moreover, it is also unclear whether this refers to the "real" Tang Dynasty or Later Tang Dynasty.

It should be noted that Li Congyi (Shi Jingtang's young brother-in-law) was later created a duke, but not yet at this point — rather, that came more than two years later. It was stated at that time that he bore the responsibility of offering sacrifices to Tang ancestral temples (referring to Later Tang, which claimed to be the continuation of Tang). --Nlu (talk) 04:15, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

February 2014

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• emperor. In response, Emperor Zhaozong commissioned him to command the operations against Wang (whom Emperor Zhaozong deemed to be more of a threat than Li Maozhen or another ally of theirs, [[

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Emperor Xuanwu of Northern Wei died on February 12, 515.--123.17.125.52 (talk) 05:12, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. I'll also verify when I get a chance. --Nlu (talk) 13:56, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

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• Conghou betrothed to the [[Empress Kong|daughter]] of the chancellor-chief of staff [[Kong Xun]]. (This drew the anger of Kong's fellow chief of staff, the more powerful [[An Chonghui]], whom Kong

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Happy V-day and Latern Festival

Please check out Talk:Zhu Zhen and Talk:Book of Tang. Also I'm thinking of proposing a move from Later Tang Dynasty to Later Tang (along with the other 4 dynasties, with Later Liang Dynasty going to Later Liang (Five Dynasties)), what is your opinion? Timmyshin (talk) 07:56, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

Thank you! You too.

My thoughts are that the current titles are not ideal, but they avoid even more disambiguation issues. I must say that I am neutral on the issue at the moment. --Nlu (talk) 17:14, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

OK I'll think about it and make a proposal. Timmyshin (talk) 18:50, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

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"Foo Dynasty" or "Foo dynasty"?

There's an RFC here. Taekwondo Panda (talk) 07:59, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. --Nlu (talk) 11:00, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

March 2014

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• intending to settle them at Huaimi Prefecture (懷密州, said to be 1,500 ''[[li (measurement)]]|]]'' northwest of Huanglong). Soon thereafter, though, Grand Empress Dowager Shulü, who opposed

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