User talk:SeoR

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Into Wikipedia[edit]

New user, May 2007. Dublin, Meath and beyond. Edit interests around Dublin localities and history, ditto for parts of Meath, Cork and the rest of Ireland, myth and folklore, libraries, fantasy and science fiction, including Irish authors in those areas, Gaeilge, some industry areas, and generally working towards a more linked-up world (long-time on Web, several sites). Will also join Commons, aiming to add content from own stores, including current photography and historic mapping. Looking forward to this work, having made suggestions and provided material to existing Wikipedians in the past (and had the "compliment" of having some of my material "borrowed" too), and hoping to find an interesting and (fairly) harmonious community. SeoR 09:02, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Commons adventure[edit]

Going to Commons tomorrow, with photography taken the other weekend, etc. Fingers crossed... SeoR 23:28, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
Finally got to Commons properly mid-June, and while I have been work-occupied most of the last ten days, got some time to explore Commons, set up an ID, accept the trigger mail, and now starting a little uploading. SeoR 10:05, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Institutional Repository of DCU[edit]


Thanks for the re-edit of the IR entry in the DCU Library section. The service has not been officially launched but it is operational. Resource and preservation metadata is being currently exposed and harvested and attendant resources accessed. The process of service advocacy continues and deposits are being added - both platform and service are a stable release and not a pilot.

The library section needs expansion and flagging the IR service needs to be cited within the overall service context. Any comments you have regarding this please let me know.


Garret McMahon - DCU Library

'Welcome. I hope my edit was not seen as in any way negative, the IR concept is excellent but in an open excyclopedia, we need to make it accessible / comprehensible, and the original note was an "orphan" few words, which I tried to integrate with the revised note. Best of luck with the ongoing work, and hope the pilot is running smoothly.

I note the query re. the use of "pilot" but also note that this is the term used in DCU's own publicity re. the matter. Perhaps a different term can be constructed relating to "pre-launch" or "fully functional trial". SeoR 09:02, 15 May 2007 (UTC)



Hello, SeoR, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date.

Personal note: Welcome to Wikipedia, SeoR! Good luck!

If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and ask your question there. Again, welcome!  —BastunBaStun not BaTsun 10:04, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
Thank you very much / Buiochas! I also hope to have a good and interesting time. Regards! SeoR 19:23, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

In response to Category_talk:Blanchardstown[edit]

I'm more of a vandal-fighter, than someone who does much work on Wikipedia - and I've only gone so far as registered on the Vicipéid. I have however taken it upon myself to make Dunboyne better, since it is where I live - and plus beforehand it was in such a sorry state..... -- TheChrisD 15:24, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

That sounds useful and important. I myself have run into what looks like marketing "planting" already but of course as an ordinary reader / user, I saw some vandalism (usually childish) and heard of other incidents.
On Blanchardstown, perhaps if we see if there are other articles which could provide enough bulk for a category; as the city's second-biggest suburban area, it probably has enough... SeoR 06:25, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Park West[edit]

Hello new editor. Might I ask that you don't re-categorise Dublin "Towns and Suburbs" without some discussion (I'm assuming it was you who recategorised Citywest). Park West for example is much more that a "business park" - ask some of the thousands of people living there! (Sarah777 23:38, 16 May 2007 (UTC))

Hello Sarah77. Have not got to City West yet, but I had noted that Towns and Suburbs - which I think means something clear to the ordinary gal/guy reading (including me in my previous existence as an ordinary Wikipedia user) - while mostly being actual suburbs of Dublin, and nearby villages/towns, also had a number of housing estates and business parks. These are commercial developments, and often fine ones, but they are *not* suburbs, except maybe to property agencies. I note from the discussion forums that such issues have arisen before. Whether posted as such for promotional reasons or not, I thought the best thing was to simply correct the categorisation, while adding to the article if possible; further, one could place them into the suburbs to which they do belong. And so Point Village, a road in Dundrum, etc., also... Maybe some day some of these will be new suburbs, but probably not under marketing names like "Park West", and before being recognised encyclopedically, in a longer timetable, with appropriate action by the authorities (neither local authority nor An Post has recognised Park West or City West, which is Tallaght/Saggart, for example, as anything like a suburb). On numbers, thousands can live in one apartment complex too, but that does not make it a suburb.
Anyway, I guess I am not the only concerned party, and I think this does matter in a publication aiming for encyclopedic standards, but of course I am happy to discuss further. Perhaps best if I raise a topic in the Ireland discussion area. SeoR 06:22, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
If you review the discussions on this issue you'll see that I have been involved in trying to get various housing estates, invented places etc de-listed as "surburbs" (without much support from fellow Wikipedians). Regarding Citywest and Park West I completely disagree with you on the notion of "required time-span"; "commercial development" and your dismissal of the residency issue as "an apartment block". Citywest is a suburb; it includes the Hotel and Golf Course outside the Business Park; both Citywest and Park West are getting their own named railway/luas stations, Citywest is widely referred to as a suburb in conversation and in the media. By all means take your case to the Irish Wikipedians forum; you'll need more argument and less assertion over there! (Sarah777 09:07, 17 May 2007 (UTC))
Thanks for reverting, Sarah. I am glad to hear that re. housing estates, invented places, etc. As your activity from joining last year is pretty substantial, I take your word for this, and I think we agree then on the issue. Great.
I am not, however, convinced re. the developments in question, and I do not see the relevance of the hotel, for example. And as a Dubliner, I have never heard either City or Park West called a suburb; most usually, they are called "industrial estates", whether that is fair or not.
I hope there is no problem with my raising a legitimate issue; I assume good faith all round from colleagues (if not necessarily one-time IDs!) but am a little concerned at the tone of the remarks here and in history, such as "more argument and less assertion". After all, Park West and the other two are only in Wikipedia by assertion in the first place! Anyway, hope we can agree to plough ahead, and I will look back to Dublin areas in a day or two, but will keep clear of Park West - City West - Cherrywood, other than typo correction. All the best! SeoR 12:17, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
SeoR! Apologies for any tonal aggression but I am now a veteran of many Wiki-battles and have come to realise that "assuming good faith" is more honoured in the breach than otherwise. I was reacting to remarks such as "surely a joke" and "no need for any discussion" etcetera. However now that I'm getting to know you I sense there is probably no real difference between us on categorising suburbs! (And at least you are interested in the topic; my earlier attempt to get Irish Wikipedians interested in establishing some rules generated a collective yawn. Regards (Sarah777 20:01, 17 May 2007 (UTC))
Hi Sarah, somewhat accidentally, I had a timeout Friday - as with some others, where I note logins clustered at lunchtime (and late evening), I often edit from work, and Friday was a killer, with a major bid. And then I took some time yesterday to just browse, and to follow some users' edit histories (three samples from Ireland, etc.), and to read more debates. And then, to this morning, some photography.
Anyway, thanks, and my apologies for any initial hastiness in editing. I shall not make remarks about jokes, or no need for discussion, but I have seen such in the edit comments here and there, and I note that some of the debates on the Irish talk page have been rather "pointed". I will try to avoid all such, hence my raising, gently, the question here, up front. And if we can work together on suburban definition, or more substantive issues, delighted. I will resume editing this evening, hopefully including some photo additions (via Commons, I think, which I believe I need to sign up for separately). Regards,

Grand Canal Dock[edit]

I wondered how long till you spotted this! That was quick. I've commented on the GCD discussion page. Regards (Sarah777 19:35, 21 May 2007 (UTC))

Thanks Sarah; only really got back to editing yesterday, and visited every one of Towns and Suburbs. One definite goner, a housing estate in little old Firhouse, and two I thought questionable, but have only queried. Will revert at GDC, SeoR 06:27, 22 May 2007 (UTC)


I de-listed this and made it part of Crumlin. Then I noticed Windy Arbour has become a suburb...always marked on maps but rarely mention till the Luas halt arrived. Should Perrystown be separate? Is it less a "suburb" than Windy Arbour? (Sarah777 22:04, 22 May 2007 (UTC))

Ah, tougher cases. Windy Arbour is usually considered part of Dundrum, both the tiny village area and the nearby housing. But it has some historic identity.
But Perrystown I have neither observed over the years of reading about Dublin and its maps (and one of the folks lives in Crumlin) nor heard of as a distinct area. Sounds to me like you got it right. I do prefer a conservative approach to divisions of the city, though. SeoR 23:40, 22 May 2007 (UTC)


Updated DYK query On 4 June, 2007, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article St. Assam's Church, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.
  • Great job, I nominated this one! Nice work. --Smee 13:12, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Sending redirects to AfD[edit]

Thanks for your efforts to keep Wikipedia neat and tidy. I need to give you some feedback, however, on the Clontarf redirects that you nominated for AfD. First, redirects don't get sent to AfD, they get sent to Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion. Second, for redirects such as C of i, rather then nominating it for deletion, it's more appropriate to simply edit it and send it to the proper destination, in this case Church of Ireland. As the guideline states, redirects are cheap, and are used to aid the search engine in helping people find articles. Thus, many editors create a number of redirects when they create an article, using all possible combinations of the subject's name. This is generally a good thing. If you have any questions, or need further clarification, please don't hesitate to drop me a line. AKRadecki 17:22, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, AFRadecki. All part of the learning for me, notably re. the process for redirect queries. As to the issue, I happened onto it along the way, and it seemed to me, in line with comments from others, that there was an issue, matching a greater pattern. I did not just edit the redirects because I thought a debate was more appropriate, and to be honest, I am not sure something as generic as C of I should be there at all - I am sure it has other meanings in the world. Apologies for any nuisance.
And now that I know that multiple redirects are seen as a positive, and a tool, I guess I had better go back and create at least some more for past articles. I was assuming the search tool took care of common variants, a la Google, but this sounds perfectly workable too. SeoR 00:35, 5 June 2007 (UTC)


Do you have a source for your recent edit to Malahide? What you wrote as a reference is just extra detail. What references are really supposed to be are references to external verifiable sources for the edits you add. Hope you can do that. Thanks ww2censor 03:08, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, one paper but one online and so readily useable - and will add at once. Thanks for hint. Perhaps what I was really looking for was a Footnote capability, and I may have picked up a wrong example from other cases. SeoR 23:27, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Most of the Malahide article is unsourced and yet you have taken it upon yourself to use Twinkle to auto-remove my posts. Also you have removed accurate edits such as the 42 bus route and local political information. If you are too lazy to actually read my edits I can only assume you don't live in Malahide. The fact that another member of my household vandalised my own edits does not mean they were all worthless. I will be reinstating these. I have worked on the Malahide page before and have lived here for almost 40 years. —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 11:46, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Also I fail to see how your conjecture about the Presbyterian church is beyond reproach. —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 11:48, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

With all due respect, I do not know who you are, or to what exactly you refer - I do not have access to "Twinkle" and did not use it to edit anything. Likewise, no idea what is referred to re. Presbyterian church... SeoR (talk) 19:55, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
I did revert a mass of largely unexplained, uncited and in some cases nonsensical edits, keeping one useful one. Still no idea re. "conjectures on Presbyterian church." SeoR (talk) 19:59, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
And, to be fair, I've reviewed the edits, and more than half were poor (bizarre non-names for "housing estate", purported youth coaches, etc.), a couple pure opinion, and most of the rest were unencyclopedic, and uncited - the politics item notably (done well, would add real value). The number of the bus route, OK, and I did retain the deletion of an unwarranted link. We very much welcome new editors here - Ireland can really use more - but standards are important. And the mention that there were two editors at the same address, one making bad edits, is not in line with appropriate control of access. SeoR (talk) 20:08, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

I played with Malahide United under several of the youth coaches named in that edit which you deleted. I have reinstated the prior edit as a result. I feel these coaches play a small but important role in community relations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 02:15, 19 April 2009 (UTC)


Oooops! Sorry about that SeoR. (Sarah777 20:20, 8 July 2007 (UTC))

No worries - as I commented in putting the older bits back, just a slip of the mouse. The main edit was needed! BR, SeoR 10:03, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Irish articles assessments[edit]

It seems that the assessment of Irish articles has fallen off the radar but recently Flowerpotman, Sarah777 and I have been doing a little work on this as well as actually classifying articles (actually Sarah has done the most work). Anyway, you are listed as a member of the WikiProject hence this post.

  • The first thing that needs doing is to work on the WikiProject template. Actually there are two templates both of which get recorded by the assessment statistics bot that collects the ratings and creates the listings in the category Category:Ireland articles by quality. The two project templates are {{Irelandproj}} listed on the main project page and {{WikiProject Ireland}} listed on the assessment page—the first allows both quality and importance rating as well as nesting but no reviewer comments, while the second allows quality rating and comments but the importance does not seem to work and comments are not included. This needs to be fixed, so we use one that works fully—can you help?
  • The next thing is to decide if we just let editors assess as they wish or to create some criteria or guidelines for rating the quality and importance of the Irish articles. Personally I am in favour of some guidelines—some will be easy to decide while others are a little more complex. What do you think?
  • Some projects make lists of articles for assessment while other go after groups of articles by category. What should we do? A mixture of both by using a "To do list"?
  • As of the last assessment statistics bot run on Sunday, August 20, only 1462 articles have been tagged, of which 1156 have been assessed for quality but 660 of these have no importance value.
  • Besides these 1462 there must be hundreds more untagged articles that should be tagged when we get the template issue mentioned above fixed.

We are not bad in our assessments but some projects have all their articles assessed while others are lacking more than we are. We can really use a few active editors to bring assessments to the fore. Please reply on the assessment talk page as to what you can do. Please help out. ww2censor 17:35, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Dollymount again[edit]

Seo; I see your point re Dolly v Bull. Remember what Jimmy Wales bold! Do it. Don't worry about my tender I disagree you'll know soon enough!! -:) (Sarah777 21:46, 31 August 2007 (UTC))

Hi Sarah, sorry, moving fast, did not note you, or would have called directly. Just a thing re tidiness - would like all on Bull Island incl Dollymount Strand on that article, and Dollymount is just the small enclave (Bull Island is Clontarf / Raheny anyway). Will do, SeoR 16:10, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Deletion of Dublin Shopping Centre Articles[edit]

Please see Talk:Shopping in Dublin (Sarah777 20:38, 13 October 2007 (UTC))

edit histories[edit]

Hi. Normally, of course, the wikipedia doesn't move pages using cutting-and-pasting. When spinning off part of a page's content to start another page, though, sometimes it's necessary; and this is what you quite correctly did when spinning off part of Primate of Ireland to create the pages Archbishop of Dublin (Church of Ireland) and Archbishop of Dublin (Roman Catholic). However, when doing a cut-and-paste move, it is essential to note the fact in the intial edit summary: say something like Pasting in content cut from Primate of Ireland; for earlier edit history see that page. Otherwise we'll have trouble in future when we try to reckon that text's origin. Thanks, Doops | talk 17:03, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Speedy deletion of Cameron O'Reilly[edit]

Nuvola apps important.svg

A tag has been placed on Cameron O'Reilly requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section A7 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article appears to be about a person or group of people, but it does not indicate how or why the subject is notable: that is, why an article about that subject should be included in an encyclopedia. Under the criteria for speedy deletion, articles that do not indicate the subject's importance or significance may be deleted at any time. Please see the guidelines for what is generally accepted as notable, as well as our subject-specific notability guideline for biographies.

If you think that this notice was placed here in error, you may contest the deletion by adding {{hangon}} to the top of the page (just below the existing speedy deletion or "db" tag), coupled with adding a note on the talk page explaining your position, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the article meets the criterion it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the article that would would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Lastly, please note that if the article does get deleted, you can contact one of these admins to request that a copy be emailed to you. Torchwood Who? (talk) 09:34, 26 March 2008 (UTC)


I just wanted to note that I have a background in Irish Literature and I have many critical sources in the area to help reference pages on such topics. I will not join the project, perse, but if you need any help on such topics, you can always drop me a message and I will be glad to help. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:52, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Excellent, good to know, thanks! Referencing has become ever more important, especially to secure and retain higher quality ratings (A, GA, FA), and sources are sometimes hard for those of us with certain work patterns. Will be in touch then, SeoR (talk) 17:27, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
Please check out The Drapier's Letters and copyedit if it needs any. I will hunt down the 7 plates that correspond with each letter when I have a chance. Ottava Rima (talk) 20:17, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

And Hi![edit]

Seo, what do you make of THIS!! Sarah777 (talk) 16:26, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Hi Sarah! Sorry, only on briefly over coffee earlier, but action taken :-) A nice case alright - a housing estate in an invented suburb, legally still part of Kilbarrack. But Bayside is now established, having had its own identity since the löate 1960's, and being essentially an "island" between DART and coast road. The only issue which blurs the lines is the occasional attempt to "rebrand" parts of it as Sutton. So I have created the Bayside category, which has a respectable number of entries anyway. Perhaps later we should reconsider Sutton Park, Hazelbury Green and many road / street articles, but until we can review the topic as a whole, I think we can leave them, as long as no one attempts to list them directly as suburbs - they must fit into a larger topic which is properly notable. SeoR (talk) 09:45, 1 April 2008 (UTC)


It's not that Adrian was Emglish is unimportant, it just jars where it was and still does to a lesser extent. I particularly didn't like the previous wording that said that he was often remarked to be the only English pope, he was the only English pope, it's an out-and-out fact rather than an opinion.

The problem with this article is finding a neutral wording, for example, Henry II is described as King of England, which fair enough is true. However Queen Victoria was Queen of Ireland, would you find it a bit odd if an article on India referred to Victoria of Ireland? Henry II had an empire in which England was a mere province, he had a lot of different titles he wasn't just King of England.

With reference to Adrian, stressing the point that he was English carries the implication that he issued the bull out of somekind of English nationalism. In fact the bull continued the church's policy of crushing the Celtic church as had happened in England (e.g. Synod of Whitby) and the bull was confirmed by the next incumbent.

Henry II was a foreign invader who occupied England, it is unlikely that Adrian was biased in favour of the Norman empire and far more likely that he was following established Church policy.GordyB (talk) 11:45, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Hi, I agree that this is an article that can breed problems, and so strong neutrality is essential. Perhaps just having Adrian linked to his article is enough - I have no issue if that seems best. On the matter of his background and the issuing of the bull, this is more complex historically. Yes, there was a general policy of erasing the Celtic church's distinct practices, and this existed before and after Adrian - but at least some historians also believe that it was not insignificant that the bull was secured at that moment. But perhaps we should not dig into such complexities - we will never know the hows and whys. And indeed, as someone else commented in Talk, and per your comment above, Henry was himself a newcomer, who almost certainly did not think of himself as English (somewhat of a term of abuse among the Normans then and long after) and whom it may well have suited to support general church policies, which also supported his possession of England! SeoR (talk) 10:16, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Jimmy Barry-Murphy[edit]

Hi Seor, well done having a go an importance rating for Jimmy Barry-Murphy (I couldn't decide). However, I was surprised that you also downgraded it to stub-class; are you sure that was what you intended? Sure, there are no refs and it's highly POV, but it seesm to meet thnse start-class criteria in several respects. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 13:12, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Hi BHG, yes, it was the intention, though I agree it is fairly firm - but no more, as the total lack of references, where for someone like Barry-Murphy, plenty are available, is a significant failure. I spent more time on the importance, as this is one of the few guys who might be High. On Class, I have, even having done only in the thousand range, less willing to give Start where an obvious failure to reference is present. SeoR (talk) 17:46, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

TUSC token 721ba23d8b9c2c79cc5d5a592e8e29ab[edit]

I am now proud owner of a TUSC account!

Astral Weeks importance reassessment requested[edit]

Noting your recent rating of the album, It's Too Late to Stop Now here as mid-importance (a worthy rating) while also noting that the Them albums The Angry Young Them and The Story of Them received a mid-importance rating, - also worthy - I am still completely confused as to the rating of low-importance for the album, Astral Weeks. If I have somehow offended you when asking for a reassessment from Ww2censor, I hope you can ignore me as only a sometimes awkward editor and consider what the album itself deserves. If for some reason, you really feel like this album that has received so many honours and top rankings is only deserving of a lower rating than the afore-mentioned albums could you please state your reasons on the album's talk page or turn the re-assessment request over to some other editor who may be more familiar with the album. Thanks for your time. Agadant (talk) 21:24, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Hi Agadant, no, no grudges held. Assessing a deep topic is always a challenge and the context was welcome. And I probably did take a more liberal view after. Should I have? Not sure - there is a strong case for - with regard to the project for Irish-related articles - and with no comment on importance in music, etc. - almost no song or album being above Low (which still means notable). What I can do is review sources. What I will do for now is remove the rating, and anyone, though preferably on the Project, is welcome to rerate. Ratings are never a personal thing, and review is always open. All the best, SeoR (talk) 22:04, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
Thanks, SeoR - All the best to you also. Agadant (talk) 11:22, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

The restoration of faith barnstar[edit]

A Barnstar!
The restoration of faith barnstar

For restoring my faith that Wiki is a worth while project. Before Dublin tramways was created I'd become convinced Wiki was nothing but discussion after discussion with nothing ever getting done. When I created Dublin tramways i expected it to be a perma-stub. However your edits and the the pace and quality at which this article has developed has really restored my faith that the project is worth while. Thanks Gnevin (talk) 21:39, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
Thanks! I have my moments here too, though I try to avoid the worst whirlpools of endless debate. But it is a pleasure to work on an article such as this, which really does open up an important but semi-lost topic. Thank you for creating it! SeoR (talk) 07:32, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Dublin tramways[edit]

I've grown tired of the BS and am going to try resolve some of the open issue about Dublin's trams .If you are around to help I would appreciate your assistance again .

Thanks Gnevin (talk) 22:01, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

That sounds very good to me. I would also like to close out some matters - including the articles I started to write some time after the main work phase, and did not finish (outside life and other article distractions). What would be your priorities? For me, I think the article on the C&HoH, and one on Lucan and Leixlip, but there is also work to do on routes, rolling stock, and more, and of course more photo gathering ... It will be a pleasure.SeoR (talk) 23:14, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
I think we should do our best to clear the outstanding issues on the talk pages and then move on to articles like Belfast tramways, Guinness Brewery tramways and others which appear to have a lot of information if a bit of digging is done Gnevin (talk) 22:54, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
Will do, thanksSeoR (talk) 20:26, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Marsh's Library[edit]

Thanks for helping clean up the page. It was my first major edit so I know it was a bit sloppy, your help is appreciated.Mikerooney (talk) 21:26, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Bram Stoker[edit]

Hi SeoR, is there any evidence that The Crescent, Stoker's birthplace, is, or ever was, in Clontarf? I'd be interested to see a map of the old Civil Parish of Clontarf, if you know of one available online. Weston Joyce's "Neighbourhood of Dublin" does not provide any real boundary information. Thanks! —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 23:50, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Sure. And not so old - though not used much nowadays, and with new areas having formed, and commonly understood district boundaries (as with Fairview) having moved, the civil parishes are still maintained in law. The issue, mind you, is not so much the Civil Parish, as that Clontarf itself was at that time understood to include what is now "the far side" of the Howth Road, all the way through to the Malahide Road, from the old Clontarf Railway Station down through Mount Temple to the Crescent. A simple piece of online evidence is in the Wikimedia systems - [1] - and shows the main body of Clontarf, a little corridor of Kilester around the Howth Road, and then a pocket of Clontarf from the eastern side of Maladhide Road to just before the western side of the Howth Road, all the way down to the coast at Fairview.
I should say that I see no problem in this - The Crescent was in one area then, and is in another now. While many of Dublin's old areas have remained stable, many new areas and boundaries have also emerged - near the place in question, we have entire new areas "carved" from old, notably Bayside (from Kilbarrack) and Donaghmede (from Baldoyle and Coolock), as well as new "sub-areas" formed within old ones (Dollymount in Clontarf, Edenmore in Raheny). Marino and Fairview were late-developing areas, but have very clear identities now (a process which I do believe takes time, but they have had this time). SeoR (talk) 09:33, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

A seems messy, all else possible.[edit]

So you said. Don't you think that F (the status quo) is no solution as it merely perpetuates what we would all like to see the back of? The endless arguments? -- Evertype· 10:39, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

That's why I put F, which I have previously backed, to the end of my list. I'm now willing to go for willing (even if clumsy) separation, with Ireland disamb, a short common article, and Ireland (State) and Ireland (Island). "A" only goes partway, and basically puts a geographic article (the whole island, and its ancient history) and a political item (the state of Ireland) into one article, which I do not believe works. The main thing, however, is to end the monstrous waste of WP producivity, by having one solution - which acknowledging the country's legal name (the RoI-pushing business is a nonsense, and comes almost entirely from outside Ireland, from people who know, I fear, less than they think). SeoR (talk) 15:36, 4 August 2009 (UTC)


I agree with SeoR - the article was a bit stagnant. What a pity that SeoR seems to resent any changes to the article though, as petulant editorial deletions can only ensure to it's on-going status of back-water. Where philosophical differences of opinion in the direction of the article arise, would it not be more gentlemanly to engage in a scholarly debate before pressing the delate button? The original article in it's opening paragraph rightly set out Castleknock's dual role as suburban village and barony. Nothing indicated that either should take precedence. Therefore there is as much merit in listing the location of the barony (and it's constituent townslands) as the village. And what were the grounds for the deletion of those community services so vital to the life of any village (e.g. the GAA, the tennis club)? Are they any less vital than the state body that anomolously remained? I look forward to hearing from SeoR (pronounced "shore"?).Laurel Lodged (talk) 21:45, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Hi Laurel Lodged, and welcome to the small but much-needed band of editors for Ireland. First, despite WP warnings about willingness to have material "mercilessly edited," my apologies for any personal disturbance. My edits on this article, which I have worked on at various times, were simply house-keeping. The essential point is that any specific article covers a specific topic, which should be the topic that an ordinary reader would expect (see the policy WP:COMMON) - there is precedence - for the topic a visitor would most likely be seeking if searching "Castleknock".
As it happens, it was I (back in 2008) who added the second paragraph (the one on the Barony) to the lead section of the article to ensure that the Barony was not neglected - but that does not mean that the article, which was always on the topic of the modern suburb / village, was now on two topics. If real depth is desireable on the Barony, with its long history, part-feudal, part-administrative, a separate article is needed. There is nothing philosophical about this - I hope you can agree that writing about the compact area of Castleknock is very different from writing about an area from the county border to the Phoenix Park and beyond Finglas. And the baronies are now rather academic.
I did avoid deletion as much as possible, moving the list of townlands (definitely inappropriate for an article on a suburb) to a footnote - still available for all. As for the links, though, the list was much too long. I could have justified taking all out, but I chose to leave a couple. For guidance on this topic, I can offer WP:EL. Such action involves no judgement on the merits of the linked entities - but if we did not have such a rule, we'd be overwhelmed by links (my Dublin suburb, on the coast, has more than 10 websites for community / school bodies, plus dozens of business ones).
On the motivation for deletion, etc., we try to avoid guessing reasons, or describing edits as "petulant" (WP:CIVIL) - it can be hard but WP:AGF.
As I think I said yesterday, if a distinct article on the Barony is warranted, I am happy to contribute - I have multiple books of local history, including the recent "Candle" volume specifically on the Barony. Best Regards, SeoR (talk) 12:32, 12 February 2010 (UTC) (I don't know how it is pronounced!).

As a novice Wiki editor, I must bow to your greater knowledge. However, I still feel aggrived at the means by which it was done (i.e. no discussion in advance). But I'll abide by your guidance. Laurel Lodged (talk) 21:56, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

I understand. Something similar happened when I first joined Wikipedia - I fixed something I thought obvious (where what I thought was a business park was noted as a suburb), and it was reverted fast. Some changes will tend to be discussed, but where an item is seen as a straightforward fix, it will tend to be simply done (the motto "be bold"), and this does apply to presentation issues and dual-purposing an article. It is partly about time, perhaps - I, for example, only get to Wikipedia a modest number of times a month nowadays. What a good editor will do is at least comment their edits (you do this too, which is great, please keep this habit!) to explain what they did. I see a foreign IP address editor, also helping with the Castleknock article, has also given (brief) explanations, and this is good to see. All the best, SeoR (talk) 22:20, 13 February 2010 (UTC)


Same beef as above. I re-ordered to the style or template that has been noted by many commentators as being the clearest of all the city towns series, namely Rathfarnham. I'm sure you'll agree that's a model of order and logic. What's wrong with having that template for all the city towns? As the content builds, the strucxture will become more useful and relevant. It also points to future development paths. Why would you want to undo it? Laurel Lodged (talk) 20:21, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Hi! Sorry, but this time, I have no idea what you mean. I made one tiny change to Drumcondra: I swapped People to late in the article, which is where it usually is, and put transport near the top. Otherwise, I did not touch the many edits you made.
On the other hand, if you are proposing to make changes to multiple articles, which have been built over a long period, you really must take a discussion on the Ireland discussion page, in fairness to all editors. Many people like the Rathfarnham article style, or parts of it, but that does not give a licence to impose it on all other articles. For example, I rather like the Rathfarnham article, but am not a fan of the idea of lumping a lot of different sections into "area x today" - I think this just adds a layer to the Table of Contents, without adding any value.
It is important in a community with many contributions over time, to interact and consult, and I look forward to a debate on the relevant Ireland pages. Maybe we should have one format for all city area / suburbs - but this needs to be agreed. All the best, SeoR (talk) 11:22, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
Hi again, I see you have also worked extensively on Blackrock, etc. - looks well. To see more of the Ireland work, the main project page is at [2] and the Discussion page attached is where to discuss broader initiatives.
OK - noted.

Lochlann Quinn[edit]

On the Irish businessmen category, why is he listed under "L" for Lochlann instead of "Q" for Quinn? I note that Michael Smurfit is under "S". Laurel Lodged (talk) 12:15, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Ignore that - I just found out how to do it.  :-) Laurel Lodged (talk) 12:28, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Rivers of County Dublin[edit]

Thanks a bunch for volunteering to help with this. If you think the process of creating the new page needs any sort of administrator assistance, please let me know. Otherwise, I'm going to leave you to it. And again, thanks! --RL0919 (talk) 20:44, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

You're welcome! I am alread enjoying the task. I need to source more references, and to study relevant article types - and will try to reach out to past contributors to that page (mostly IP addresses, from multiple countries, but there is at least one named editor). I plan to make the new article within two weeks. SeoR (talk) 08:38, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

You are now a Reviewer[edit]

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Hello. Your account has been granted the "reviewer" userright, allowing you to review other users' edits on certain flagged pages. Pending changes, also known as flagged protection, is currently undergoing a two-month trial scheduled to end 15 August 2010.

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Please reply.[edit]

I did not realise I could have sent this to you personally, but I would be grateful if you could reply to my query as to why almost all of my edits to the page 'Knocklyon' were changed in some way by you. Dylan 23:20, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Howth Castle[edit]

The link I removed and you restored is broken, I fixed the new path and I added this one: [3]. Bye Alfio66 (talk) 13:38, 23 August 2010 (UTC)


I was led to these article by following up on an expired proposed deletion for one of the O'Reilly scholars. I see you've been doing some editing on these articles, among the many other Irish articles you have been doing good work on. I recognize the importance of this family in Ireland; some of them are certainly appropriate for Wikipedia articles, and I have no quarrel with that. I have, however, found it necessary to do a considerable amount of copyediting , to remove some of what looks like an excessively promotional manner. If you think any of what I removed is really essentially, please restore or discuss it--but I think relatively minor articles without too much repetitive linking back and forth to each other are necessary to avoid the appearance of what is called here a WP:Walled garden, and will in the end make the articles stronger. DGG ( talk ) 02:55, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Hi! A belated reply - I had no issues at the time of your note, and having gone into depth now, have none now either. I've not worked on those articles in some time, but the current state looks fine, so such edits as you made no doubt added value. On with the project... SeoR (talk) 21:05, 8 February 2011 (UTC)



Thanks for moving the page Grangegorman Development Agency. I've since created a page for the locality of Grangegorman. However, the talk page for this new page is Talk:Grangegorman Development Agency (i.e. it doesn't seem to have it's own talk page). I'm not sure how to sort this out. If you have time, could you look into it? Thanks FiachraByrne (talk) 00:09, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

It's ok I think I've sorted it out. FiachraByrne (talk) 00:15, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Rivers and streams at[edit]

The following are some streams identified at which do not appear in your List of rivers in County Dublin:

  • Bun na dTrí Tr(i)omán Not a stream but the meeting point of three Dodder headwaters.
  • Eas Caorthainn Doinn Part of the upper Dodder, or one particular right bank tributary of Mareen's Brook, just upstream from the above.
  • Trumondoo Upper Dodder right-bank tributary.
  • Sladnabrumpoge Former upper Camac left bank tributary, entering the upper Brittas Pond, now dried out.
  • White Stone Slade Former upper Camac left bank tributary, dried out.
  • Slád na Riaibhche Small upper Camac left bank tributary, flowing in between the Brittas Ponds.
  • Toberagh (Same as Toberach?) Right bank Camac tributary, name of upper part, to Crooked Bridge, the lower part is called "Slad Gar na Gree" (Stream of the Neighing of Horses).

There is a page at the website identifying streams, and one identifying rivers. They are not comprehensive but may be of passing interest to watery people. — O'Dea (talk) 17:04, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Many thanks! I understand from following a reference to the current page that the White Stone Slade is dried out, but will have to make enquiries on the others - this will be most interesting in itself. All best, SeoR (talk) 12:06, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Categories for discussion nomination of Category:Lord Dunsany[edit]

Category:Lord Dunsany, which you created, has been nominated for discussion. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Thank you. —Justin (koavf)TCM☯ 04:09, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

New editor[edit]

Hi SeoR. I notice that you and a new editor have similar content interests. I've been trying to guide him/her on procedural issues on the project, but really don't have the 'local knowledge' of either of you. Since it appears you will be coming across each other on a regular basis, perhaps you might drop them a line. They seem bona fide, but may be a little stunned after a recent revert of mine. Would you mind making contact with them on their TP. I think they may be a bit intimidated and even find the place a bit hostile. Best. RashersTierney (talk) 10:30, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Hi! Will do. I think I "bumped into" them on Balgriffin a day or two back, and today Clongriffin, and indeed on the latter they seem to have made hundreds of edits - great industry but they have been partly reverted, by 2-3 other editors also (in fact I made only small edits, but they may feel a bit overwhelmed indeed). Clongriffin seems to draw an odd amount of attention at times, perhaps from people who live there. I am a long-term Northsider, and know the history, and would be happy to help. Good to have someone new. Thanks and best regards, SeoR (talk) 10:36, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
And thank you. Best wishes. RashersTierney (talk) 10:42, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
'Welcome! I have now looked more deeply, and with good intent, there have been material factual errors such as elevating a small church to an abbey, and confusing the two very different areas of Bayside (with old church) and Baldoyle, and a lack of edit comments, so I will touch on these gently, but encouragingly - the energy displayed is impressive (over 500 edits in under a week, I think). SeoR (talk) 11:22, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Hello SeoR (& Rashers), I am Ainenin and I thank you for the messages that you left me. Yes, I am new to Wiki, having signed up only last week. I very much appreciate your help.

To introduce myself, I am female, grew up in North East Dublin, and came to the site for educational purposes. My intention has been to create a Bayside Bay site but first I have to rise to the challenge of learning the technicalities of the Wiki system.

Also, as you both know, I have been abused for updating and further opening the Clongriffin site.

I admit that I arrived in almost complete ignorance. Upon my arrival, the Clongriffin site was out of date by at least six months, it was full of speculation and subjective opinion, vastly un-referenced, and looked more like a blog than a Wiki site. It seemed to be abandoned and I thought it was as good as any other place to cut my teeth, so I proceeded to clean it up. (I now live in Clongriffin and my neighbour gave me a hand setting up on Wiki. I currently have neighbours who are from the outside Dublin and/or Ireland. Most of them don't even know Grange Abbey exists or that they can walk out to the estuary from the train station so I thought it would be a nice way to thank them for their help by posting that sort of info first.)

I am sorry that I upset people. Rashers has kindly sent me instructions for writing an open apology. I have not done that yet because I have been busy the last few days and to be honest, I was so upset by the nastiness that I actually lost sleep. There are clearly angry and ignorant people lurking about on the Clongriffin site. I am not interested in fighting blindly on the internet.

To clarify, I don't know if you can tell what I was up to step-by-step, but essentially I cleaned up the civic information, updated the facilities etc, and then grappled with extensive tagging and referencing in the natural geographic and history section. As I said, while I was working away, I thought I was in an empty, abandoned space. I had no idea that I was being watched and criticised. If I had known that (a) I probably would have worked more offline, (b) I would have introduced myself properly so as not to offend those who had opened the site before me, and (c) had I known that Wiki harbours ignorami, I wouldn't have bothered because I don't appreciate being slagged off and abused, especially when my intentions are altruistic.

RashersTierny thankfully has been very kind and generous. I thought he approached me because I triggered a need for some technical assistance but I actually now understand that is a gentleperson. I am most grateful.

Following the Wiki abuse that I took, I have questioned if I should carry on or not. But this is not a vanity project. I am an educator and I still want the children to learn about the estuary, the bay, the local rivers, streams, wells, birds, nature, etc, and I find now that I can’t resist but want to fill in the history sections for them too.

Ultimately, I cannot go on without further assistance. I can’t yet open new information pages, comment on what I’ve done, or bear being abused on-line. I can quickly learn the technicalities but I’m afraid that I might never be able to suffer fools gladly.

Opening Wiki Pages: If either or both of you are interested, I would very much appreciate if either of you would open Bayside Bay, Bayside Estuary and Grange Abbey pages for me, or should I say, the local children and curious or interested adults.

Polite Notices: I admit that I got completely distracted by Grange Abbey, and then I got carried away with St Samson. I have updated the history on Balgriffin and also added a small bit of info and some references to the Samson of Dol site. I would like to let the original authors know that my intentions are respectful and that my additions are there to enhance the site. I need to learn how to do that.

Clongriffin Open Page: Even though they didn’t have to barge in, kicking sand around and being so rude and mean about the work that I put in (which took hours of my time), in self defence I referenced nearly every sentence I wrote, tagging extensively as I went along. I stress that I thought I was working quietly in a forgotten corner or else I would have fully referenced every sentence straight away.

I am sorry that I upset people … Some points they made had some merit but I remind you that I simply hadn’t finished the work.

For example, Clongriffin is not a town, but it is a residential area in its own right. I’ve got the referencing and can apply it.

Clongriffin is no more ‘North Donaghmede’ than it is ‘South Portmarnock’. This is ridiculous inverted snobbery. I might not have learned the technicalities of Wiki yet, but I do know academics and I have the references for this too.

Wiki does not approve of individuals using the site as a blog. All information should be tagged and referenced appropriately. I can do that if you like but if it results in other locals hurling insults at me ... Would either of you like to discuss this further?

Historical Sites/Grange Abbey: As a local with a great interest in early medieval history, I thought I clearly emphasised that Grange Abbey was more of a granary than an actual Abbey.

Times have changed. Nowadays, some of us are more impressed by fantastic architectural delights such as the new Father Collins Park and Dundrum Shopping Centre than we are by substance and sound engineering. Nevertheless, the Grange monastic site was a priory and of profound importance. Besides the fact that it deserves to be acknowledged as much as, let’s say, Kylmore Abbey. (Even the holiest among us have to eat.) I wanted to go further into this Abbey/granary issue but withou even reading the references that I posted, they are fiddling with the information to suit themselves. Early medieval history is approximately 1500 years old; they used lots of old French and Latin then. We are thinking an Abbey has to be something like Tintern Abbey. They were thinking of a simple, modest building that was consecrated by their Abbe. I can go into this in much greater detail if you like.

Malahide and Sutton chapels are also named Abbeys. [I actually think this is because St Samson was an Abbot when he arrived in Ireland with two Irish monks to visit Howth. He was a noble of Irish descent so it wasn’t long before he was given some land to start his own settlement. I think the local ‘Abbeys’ got their names because they were associated with the Welsh Abbe. I am reading on that and looking for references to back me up.]

It seems that there are thugs on site who think I am trying to "dolly" things up. I am not trying to gild the lily but it at the same time, I don't want to overlook such a significant site. It deserves better treatment. Personally, I believe it should be restored. King Henry VIII did huge damage when he invaded. It is amazing that the original chapel still stands.

Perhaps by the time you saw it, someone had gone in and fiddled it. (I noticed that some wording was changed, clearly before actually reading the references.)

Nevertheless, I would like to further expand. In the 11th century, Grange Abbey was founded, but that does not clarify the age of the site. I was planning on expanding that. How do you feel about this? Am I supposed to be asking for permission? I’d like to know, thank you. If SeoR is interested in this area, I’d be very happy to discuss it further.

Also, I’d like to fill in the history of Donaghmede, St Donagh’s well and river (which mark Donaghmede, not Donaghmede-South), his infamous apiaries and mead.

However, if the ‘North/South’ Donaghmede brigade want to shout me down and abuse them I’ll either want to turn off my computer and carry on my work elsewhere. Like I said, I don’t want to be arguing with anyone so perhaps it is best to leave well enough alone.

How do either of you, especially SeoR, feel about this?

If you are interested in the educational side of things, then I would be entirely grateful to you for technical assistance and some etiquette training so that I don’t offend anyone else.

Thank you both for having so kindly offered me assistance and taking the time to read my message(s). I hope I hear from you again.

I have to work now but I can check at night time if any messages came in from either of you Ainenim (talk) 11:16, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

PS: I have an annoying habit of calling BALDOYLE BAY Bayside Bay. I am sorry about that too. It was clearly me who wrote Bayside and maybe someone became insulted and (instead of just changing the word), tore the whole paragraph out. Nevertheless, my mind was on language. Mon or muin or mona is used in placenames to indicate bogs, bogginess, or wetlands. I should have constructed the paragraph better. I think I wrote it in the very small hour of the morning when I should have been sleeping! Nevermind. Ainenim (talk) 12:07, 26 October 2011 (UTC)


Hello SeoR,

I finally wrote out a message for the Clongriffin site. My stomach was in knots doing it but it is posted now.

I hope I didn't come across as being too stern. Nevertheless, I really felt that I had to stand up for myself and what is right, rather than putting my tail between my legs and hiding under the couch.

I appreciate the comments that you made on the site.

With kind regards & many thanks, Ainenim 11:22, 28 October 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ainenim (talkcontribs)

Hello Ainenim,
Sorry, offline most of last 1.5 days. Great re. the message - and I was going to say not to be too apologetic, but to explain. I will have a look. Your message appeared three times, so I have sorted that, and I will now also continue my reply to your previous message on your Talk. All best, SeoR (talk) 19:32, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

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