Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Peter Martyr Vermigli/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 10:43, 6 August 2016 [1].

Peter Martyr Vermigli[edit]

Nominator(s): JFH (talk) 03:43, 21 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Vermigli was an influential but lesser-known Reformation theologian who has experienced a renaissance of scholarly interest. He was born in Italy and converted to Protestantism after meeting Italian reformers. He fled the Inquisition in his forties and spent time with Bucer in Strasbourg, Cranmer in England, and Bullinger in Zurich. J Milburn conducted a thorough review and passed the article recently at GA. JFH (talk) 03:43, 21 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Midnightblueowl[edit]

  • Great work in general.
Thanks!--JFH
  • The opening sentence does not state Vermigli's nationality. I appreciate that this might be a complex issue (Italy not yet existing as a state, etc), but could we not refer to him as Florentine? Doing so helps to situate him in a particular geographical context. Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:07, 29 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Done I don't have a problem calling it Italy. My sources call him Italian and it was referred to as such as a region before becoming a state.--JFH
  • "Vermigli was attracted to the priesthood from an early age." - maybe "Catholic priesthood". I know that that seems obvious for anyone familiar with the region and time period in question, but some readers may not be aware of the Catholic hegemony of the region and might suspect that it was also inhabited by Protestants or pagans or whatever. Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:09, 29 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Lent and Advent" - I'd recommend adding a link to these two events. Many people who live outside of Christian communities will not be familiar with them. Midnightblueowl (talk) 12:31, 30 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Done--JFH
  • "There he learned Hebrew from a local Jewish doctor to read the Old Testament scriptures" - i'd go with "There he learned Hebrew from a local Jewish doctor in order to read the Old Testament scriptures". It'll just make it that little bit clearer. Midnightblueowl (talk) 12:31, 30 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm, the script I use to convert to Oxford English excised this, but I've found no evidence this is a British/American issue. I agree it helps. --JFH
  • " learned from Vermigli. Vermigli had learned" - "learned" appears twice in quick succession. I'd recommend replacing one with a synonym. Midnightblueowl (talk) 12:31, 30 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Done --JFH
  • "arguing that the Jesus' words "this is my body" at the institution of the sacrament" - this doesn't really make much sense to me ("the Jesus"?). COuld it be clarified? Midnightblueowl (talk) 12:45, 30 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Definite article was a typo. I also clarified that this is at the Last Supper. Does that help enough or still unclear?-JFH
  • Thomas Cramner is linked to about four times throughout the article; only two are permissible, that in the lede and the first mention in the main body of the article. Midnightblueowl (talk) 12:45, 30 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I found three and deleted one.-JFH
  • " has argued that Peter Martyr Vermigli, Wolfgang Musculus, and Heinrich Bullinger " - we really don't need Vermigli's whole name here. Midnightblueowl (talk) 12:45, 30 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Done-JFH
  • "regarded by New England Puritan divines" - what is a divine in this context? If possible, could we have an explanation or a link? Midnightblueowl (talk) 12:48, 30 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Old-fashioned word for theologian, fixed-JFH (talk) 19:51, 30 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • On the basis of the text and comprehensiveness, I am happy to give this my Support. Good work, JFH! Midnightblueowl (talk) 16:26, 1 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • Since Italy does not have freedom of panorama, all images of Italian buildings should explicitly account for the copyright status of the building as well as the photo. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:41, 30 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I added a PD-old-100-1923 to File:Le balze, veduta su badia fiesolana.JPG, as the building is well over 100 years old. I hope that was the right move, as I've never dealt with building photos before. Thanks for the review. --JFH (talk) 01:30, 31 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It was, but you'll need to do something similar with File:Basilica_di_San_Frediano_Lucca.jpg as well. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:01, 31 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, thanks, that's now done too. --JFH (talk) 00:07, 2 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Driveby comments: watch out for overuse of "reform" and its variations ("Reformation"), especially in para 1 of the lead and para 2 of Legacy. Similarly the "Christ's body and blood" three-peat in the lead. "Peter Martyr Vermigli (Italian: Pietro Martire Vermigli, born Piero Mariano Vermigli"—rather than begin the article with three repetitions (basically) of his name, could you move the second two to a footnote?—indopug (talk) 14:11, 1 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, this was helpful, and your edits improved the article as well. --JFH (talk) 01:57, 2 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Mike Christie[edit]

  • "decision to flee for Protestant land": this reads oddly; wouldn't "to Protestant lands" be more natural?
How's "northern Europe"?--JFH (talk) 20:45, 3 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The prohibition was removed on Vermigli's appeal to Rome, with which he received some help of powerful friends he had made in Padua": suggest "from powerful friends".
Done--JFH (talk) 20:45, 3 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Like his earlier post in Spoleto, the monks of the San Frediano monastery": needs some rephrasing; the monks are not like his post.
"Like at" OK? --JFH (talk) 20:45, 3 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I made it "as", which I think is a little more formal. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:45, 4 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He set up a college based on humanist principles of education and the model of the newly founded St John's College, Cambridge, and Corpus Christi College, Oxford.". Suggest "...of education and modeled on the newly founded..." to avoid choosing between "model" and "models", since there are two models given.
Done--JFH (talk) 20:45, 3 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "despite a papal meeting with the Emperor in Lucca in 1541": why is this meeting relevant to Vermigli?
The idea is he's reforming Lucca right under the pope's nose. I changed the sentence a little in case it wasn't clear that Vermigli is there at the same time. --JFH (talk) 20:45, 3 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Vermigli was summoned to a Chapter Extraordinary of the Lateran Congregation": I think, after reading through the paragraph, that Vermigli did not obey the summons, but fled instead, but it's not completely clear on first reading; he might have attended and then fled. I think this could be made a little clearer.
Done--JFH (talk) 20:45, 3 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "several initially suspicious Protestant leaders": what were they suspicious of?
Clarified--JFH (talk) 20:45, 3 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the chair of Old Testament": can you confirm this is the correct title for the chair? It sounds less natural than "the chair of the Old Testament" or "the Old Testament chair", but since it's the title of a post, not just running prose, I didn't want to change it myself.
The source uses "chair of Old Testament". "Old Testament" and "New Testament" are often referred to as fields of study. See for example: [2] --JFH (talk) 20:45, 3 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The disputation put Vermigli at the forefront of debate over the nature of the Eucharist": suggest "forefront of the debate".
I don't want to suggest there is one coherent debate, so I used "debates"--JFH (talk) 20:45, 3 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Vermigli succeeded the chair of Hebrew from Konrad Pellikan": suggest "Vermigli succeeded Konrad Pellikan as the chair of Hebrew".
Done--JFH (talk) 20:45, 3 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Fifteen editions of the Loci Communes spread Vermigli's influence among Reformed Protestants": can you say over what period these editions appeared and this influence was exerted? If these fifteen editions came out over the next twenty or thirty years, that's a very different influence than if they appeared over the following 150 years -- in other words, were they a key text of the theological debates of the time, or a long lasting standard work? Or both?
I've added the year-range for the editions. I think the legacy section also addresses these questions. --JFH (talk) 13:41, 4 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

-- I've completed the review; the above points are all I could find. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:03, 4 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks you very much for these comments and your copy-edits. --JFH (talk) 13:41, 4 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support. All my concerns have been addressed. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 14:12, 4 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Cas Liber[edit]

I know nothing about the topic area so can at least look at it as a neophyte/layperson and offer suggestions on accessibility hopefully (and prose). Comments to follow. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:36, 21 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

most well-known - why not "best-known"?
King Edward died in 1553, and this was followed by the accession of Mary I of England, - looks odd to refer to Eddie as "this"....

Other than that, the article reads well and is accessible to someone like me. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:32, 22 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, I've addressed your comments. --JFH (talk) 21:41, 22 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Support on prose and (presumably) comphrehensiveness - nice read Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 07:42, 23 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Coord note[edit]

I probably should've caught this earlier, looks like we still need a source review for formatting/reliability. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 00:00, 30 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • I just checked - the references are formatted consistently. I can do spot check of sources in several hours unless anyone beats me to it. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 02:32, 30 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    • Tks Cas, Jf's previous FAC a few months ago was spotchecked so I was thinking more the reliability of the sources (and formatting, which you've done, tks) but of course a spotcheck is always welcome if you can manage it too. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 03:14, 30 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
      • Sources (peer reviewed journal articles and books) all look reliable Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 03:04, 31 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • FN 134 faithful to source.
  • FN 131 faithful to source.
      • Most other sources are Brill or Questia subscriptions AFAICT, which I didn't pick up, so will leave to Coords what they want to do. Much of what I sawin the one source I checked is consistent with teh general article. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:59, 31 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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