Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Martinus (son of Heraclius)/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Gog the Mild via FACBot (talk) 15 March 2023 [1].

Martinus (son of Heraclius)

Nominator(s): Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 03:20, 28 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about a caesar of the Byzantine Empire, a brother of one of my previous FA's, David. Like his brother, he was tied to dynastic intrigue surrounding an incestuous marriage and preferred succession. He never lived to be emperor in his own right, but instead either died in the process of being emasculated or survived to live out the rest of his life in obscurity on Rhodes. As a consequence of being less important, there is less to say about him than of his brother, but I belive there is enough for it to pass FAC. I will note that there is significant amounts of info that could be pulled from the David article to expand contexts, but I was worried about losing focus; happy to pull such over if editors feel it would benefit the article. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 03:20, 28 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Image review the only image's licensing is OK, but it sandwiches and is too small to read clearly. (t · c) buidhe 03:23, 28 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Buidhe: Hopefully fixed; expanded image and moved to the side. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 03:28, 28 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Would it be better to remove the Heraclian Dynasty banner, given that Martinus is not in it? Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 03:29, 28 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah I would remove any navbox that does not have the article linked. (t · c) buidhe 04:28, 28 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Buidhe: Done. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 04:54, 28 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support by Unlimitedlead

I would briefly insert a definition for caesar. Admittedly, it is a strange term and could be confusing to unfamiliar readers.
Done
"Heraclius left the Byzantine Empire to two of Martinus' brothers, Constantine III and Heraclonas" When did this happen? And why did he leave then the throne? Did he die? Abdicate?
Done
"to make" sounds somewhat coloquial; perhaps try "to install" and then adjust the surrounding grammar as necessary.
Done.
"Valentinus seized Constantinople regardless..." There is nothing before this sentence that indicates that he intended on taking Constantinople.
Inserted "Across from Constantinople" when I say he marched to Chalcedon; do you think that is sufficient?
Trivial matter: but maybe mention that Heraclius and Martina were married in the History section?
Done
Define nobilissimus briefly: maybe try "Martinus was declared a nobilissimus, one of the highest imperial titles, under Heraclius..."
Went with "a high courtly title"
Please adjust all {{circa}} templates in the article to read as, {{circa|638}} not {{circa}}638.
Done.
Link papyrus?
Done.

More to follow in a few minutes. Unlimitedlead (talk) 11:57, 1 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

By chance, was Martinus named after his mother? Just a thought.
Figured this was the case but was unable to find a source for it; a redoubled search (I basically just used variations of "named for" in quotes) has turned up that this is true; will add it once it finishes downloading from not-Libgen.
I'm sure there's a good reason for this that I'm not picking up on, but why does the lead and infobox say that Martinus became caesar in c. 638 if the History section provides much evidence that it was in 639?
Fuller expanation in the lede; I've changed it to circa 639 in the infobox for simplicity.
"This could be seen as a reaction to Pyrrhos bypassing David and Martinus after the death of Heraclius" In what way did he 'bypass' them? I'm a little lost.
The primary source is very unclear on what this means, and PbmZ cites it directly with little explanation; I think it means that he basically just started ignoring them and making his own decisions, but it's not really clear, so I've removed it.
Link will?
Done
Ditto with regent?
Done
"On 20/24 April or 26 May 641, Constantine died of an advanced case of tuberculosis, although some supporters of Constantine alleged that Martina had him poisoned..." You can replace "some supporters of Constantine" with "some of his supporters".}}}
Done.
"under the regency of Martina" Ditto, you can replace this with "under her regency".
Done.
"demanding that Patriarch Pyrrhus must crown Constans II as emperor" This sounds strange; I think you should delete "must".
Done.
Link crown with Coronation of the Byzantine emperor.
Done
Link abdicate?
Done.
"Martina, now in a truly desperate situation, offered the military further donatives, recalled an influential patron of Valentinus, Philagrius, from his exile in Africa, and offered Valentinus the title of comes excubitorum (count of the excubitors)." The paragraph never quite explain why Martina was doing these things?
Explained that the latter two were negotiation pieces, and explained the first as "gifts or bribes" (I'm not sure it's ever really
"Despite these offers..." What offers? It sounds more like Martina merely capitulated to his requests.
Changed to "overture"
"Valentinus entered the city shortly thereafter" Which city? Based on the lead, is it Constantinople?
Whoops, added.
I think Political mutilation in Byzantine culture would be appropriate to link somewhere, maybe "nose cut off".
Done.
Add ALT text to your image?
Done.
[[Category:7th-century Byzantine emperors]] seems odd, seeing as Martinus was not an emperor himself.
Removed.

That's all I've got. A fascinating short read. Unlimitedlead (talk) 12:18, 1 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Unlimitedlead: Done all, thank you for reviewing! Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 15:47, 6 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

CommentsSupport by Borsoka

...from c. 638–September/October 641 The habitual phrase would be "from c. 638 to 641" in a first sentence in the lead. Based on the main text, I understand "c. 639" would be a better starting year.
Done.
I slightly rephrased the first sentence.
~~Under Heraclius, Martinus was elevated to caesar in c. 638 That he was made caesar is mentioned in the first sentence. I assume he was made caesar by his father.~~
Done.
~~Martinus was the son of Emperor Heraclius and Empress Martina. Mention that Martina was her husband's niece and second wife. I assume Martinus was not their first son.~~
Done.
Martinus was born to Byzantine Emperor Heraclius and Empress Martina at an unknown date. Mention that Martina was her husband's niece and second wife. Also mention that their marriage give rise to opposition by the clergy. List Heraclius sons (both by his first wife and his second wife) to introduce them before they are mentioned as caesars, co-emperors and emperors.
Done.
~~Introduce Constantine III as Martinus's half-brother, and Heraclonas as Martinus's elder full brother.~~
Done.
Valentinus ... cut off Martinus' nose and emasculated him... I doubt that Valantinus was the executor. I think everything that happened to Martinus could be summarize in a new sentence: "Martinus was dismembered and exiled to Rhodes."
Done.
~~That he died likely soon after his fall, should also be mentioned in the lead.~~
Done.
~~...the later historian and Emperor Constantine VII I assume you want to write either "the later historian Emperor Constantine VII" or "the later historian and emperor Constantine VII".~~
Done.
~~Introduce John of Nikiu.~~
Done.
~~Introduce Pyrrchus of Constantinople as Patriarch.~~
Done.
~~Introduce Constantine III as a son of Heraclius and his first wife.~~
Done in family bit.
~~Do we know at what age Constantine III and Heraclonas succeeded their father?~~ If Constantine III was an adult why did he need a regent?
Done; the regency thing is difficult, but it seems possible that Heraclius wanted to favor her and ensure her a position in the future, and did so by naming her regent, even if Constantine should have been capable of serving as such for his half-brother.
Treadgold writes that Martina was named as regent for Heraclonas in case Constantine died. (Treadgold, p. 307)
@Borsoka: I've amended the text to say that Heraclius wanted Constantine and Heraclonas both to consider Martina as their empress and mother, and later on explained the whole regency business as applying to Heraclonas; an interesting distinction, given that, in both scenarios, she is technically serving as regent, as the two are nominally equal, and indeed she exercised much power. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 05:08, 7 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
~~...leaving Heraclonas... Consider rephrasing: "...leaving her son Heraclonas..."~~
Done.
~~Another son, Theodosius, suffered no punishment as he was deaf-mute, and thus was not in a position to threaten the throne. Delete.~~ Borsoka (talk) 06:08, 4 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Done.
@Borsoka: Done all, thanks for reviewing! Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 15:49, 6 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for this new episode of your series of "Forgotten Byzantine Royals". It is a nice article. I support its promotion. Borsoka (talk) 05:59, 7 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Src review

~~WIP. SN54129 17:54, 8 March 2023 (UTC)~~ This version reviewed. Inc. spot checks. SN54129 17:57, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think it's necessary to have your 'Primary sources' section over four columns when that's the same number of entries; ironically, I'd suggest that it makes it possibly easier to miss the trailing three, and with only four entries, one column will not breach WP:WHITESPACE. SN54129 19:06, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Done.
Your Garland '02 and Bellinger are missing publisher location information.
Added.
Lille needs ISBN.
It's pulled from a template, which doesn't really use an ISBN because the online version doesn't strictly have one. Perhaps a DOI might be used, but it links directly to it and is a name recognized publication, so I don't know that that would be useful.
Format ISBNs consistently
Done.
All the PmbZ refs check out (not necessarily, that surprisingly) per text attribution.
2 Tougher: supports naming after Martina;' Tougher 4a, b, c: mother's death, his full quiver of sons, elevation of Heraclonus.
All DIR entries check out, even if it is a Wordpress blog (was?), its claims to being peer-reviewed are irrefutable, it seems.
I have never understood why such a useful and high-quality source hosts itself on such an amateur-looking site.
Alexander chackes out at nine sones
6 Spatharakis 1976, p. 19: checks out at 10 sons.
But note that Alexander 230 fn58 also cites another source as the number being 11, so I recommend recasting the sentence aswith sources estimating nine, 10 or 11 children with the three cites at the back.
Done.
15 Treadgold, 308: supports allegation of poisoning. Likewise 17 a,b: Mob.

Other

I c/e'd a contraction out.
Be consistent between s's and s'.
Done.

That's that. Nice article; congratulations on beating out the top twenty :D SN54129 19:06, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Serial Number 54129: Thanks for the review, all points should be done or responded to. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 21:14, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Good ole Iazyges! Always a pleasure working with you. Happy to pass the source review, flying colours and bar etc :) SN54129 21:27, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Always a pleasure with you as well ;). Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 22:02, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

CommentsSupport by Constantine

Reserving a spot here. Constantine ✍ 11:39, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Lede

tertiary heir may not be immediately understood. I for one had never encountered the term before, and googling it indicates a) that it is rare and b) that it is a technical legal term for a grandchild of a primary heir. This in turn means that as a gloss of caesar it is incorrect, since anybody could be named caesar, and a caesar could indeed be the primary heir, if there were no co-emperors, and none of the caesares in this article were Heraclius' great-grandsons. I much prefer glossing caesar as something like '...elevated to caesar, a junior imperial title which placed him on the line of succession, at some point...'
I hadn't considered it as a legal term, just "they're an heir, but usually tertiary to a co-emperor by this time"; Done.
across from Constantinople per WP:POPE, 'across the Bosporus strait from the imperial capital, Constantinople,'
Done.
I added something ;)
Done.
to force Martina to install Constans II...Valentinus seized Constantinople regardless 'regardless' implies that Constans II was installed, but we are not told that. Better 'and forced Martina to install Constans II'
Done.
~~dismembered and exiled dismemberment is fatal. 'Mutilated' is I think the word you're looking for, which should be linked to Political mutilation in Byzantine culture as well.~~
Done.

History section

~~Instead of 'History', perhaps 'Life' as title?~~
Done.
~~Per above on the gloss of caesar.~~
Done.
~~What is CPR XXIII 35?~~
Done.
~~Why Nicolas Gonis when the reference uses the transliteration 'Nikolaos'? And is he likely to have an article?~~
Done
~~, who would come to replace him as Patriarch under Constans II. is this relevant here?~~
Removed.
~~recalling an influential patron...and offered him 'recalling an influential patron...and offering him', or period, and then 'For this reason, she recalled an influential patron...and offered him'.~~
Done.
The gloss for comes excubitorum is correct, but won't help anyone who doesn't know who/what the excubitors are and why their count was important. Perhaps 'offered him the title of comes excubitorum, a very influential post that entailed command over the imperial bodyguard'?
Done.
~~'elevated Constans to sole emperor'~~
Done.
~~Remove , where following, and replace with a full stop.~~
Done.

Sources

~~All are high-quality sources, but am surprised not to find Kaegi's biography of Heralius among them.~~
Seems to be an accident of happenstance; I also think I might just not have had the work at the time I first wrote these, as it was Haukurth that added it for the David article; I've added it in and cited it the part that directly relates to him. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 20:48, 12 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No worries, and wasn't going to fail it for that. But it should at least be in a 'further reading' section. Constantine ✍ 17:22, 13 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The title of Grumel 1958 is obviously mangled, and it misses a language parameter.
Done.
Per this the title is 'Traité d'études byzantines. Tome 1, La chronologie'. You can also use the Gallica link.
Done. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 19:04, 13 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
~~Spatharakis 1976 needs to be capitalized~~
Done.
Tougher 2019 is, as the title indicates, a collection of papers. Hence the author is not Tougher; she is the editor of the volume. Please identify the paper and its author.
Sometimes I feel really dumb reading these and wondering how it didn't occur to me... Fixed.
Can you also add the title of the paper and page range?
Done.

That's it for a first pass. Constantine ✍ 12:46, 12 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Cplakidas: Done all; thank you for the review! Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 20:48, 12 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Iazyges:replied above, and one minor comment in addition:

The primary sources are mentioned (except for the De Ceremoniis) in the article body. So unless you link to specific editions of them, I'd say the section is redundant. And, having the primary sources as 'further reading' is odd, it seems to devalue them; if you want to keep this, I would simply call the section 'Primary sources'.
Done.

Otherwise nothing to complain about :). Constantine ✍ 17:22, 13 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Cplakidas: Done all. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 19:04, 13 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Iazyges: Excellent. That leaves me with only the pleasant task of supporting. Nice work! Constantine ✍ 19:06, 13 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Gog the Mild (talk) 13:23, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.