After working on this article for over a month, I believe it's ready. Gary King (talk) 04:19, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
Comment: I thought that the reception section skimped on criticism on the multiplayer, which was prominently mentioned in the lead. If the criticism wasn't all too common, then I think it would be better off if you dropped that. bibliomaniac15 04:58, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
It was mentioned by two reviews in the Reception section; I think it's suitable in the lead, especially considering it was one of the few things that received criticism. Gary King (talk) 20:45, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
Another comment. In the synopsis: "Dark Aether becomes home to the Ing, cruel shapeshifting creatures that can possess bodies of the living, the dead, and the artificially intelligent, and intend to destroy the Luminoth." The last part doesn't make much sense, since if you cut out the appositive, it becomes: "Dark Aether becomes home to the Ing, and intend to destroy the Luminoth." I think that the "and" should be changed to a "who."
I'm a bit of a nerd when it comes to opening sentences, but I think the first sentence is rather boring, and doesn't say that much. I would love if the second sentence (the general content) was used instead for the opening, since it sums up what the game is so well. The current first sentence would be a logical second sentence then, since it explains in more general terms of what it is. I don't know if everyone would agree, but on tropical cyclone articles, which I so often work on, I try and find a captivating opening sentence, with a more general sentence that follows.
Is the mentioning of the Zelda game important? I find it out of place, especially it being in the first paragraph, which is supposed to talk about the game itself. If it were on TFA, and the whole lede were included, I'd certainly be confused why there was a Zelda reference in its main page blurb.
The last sentence of the first paragraph of the lede could use some tweaking. Perhaps a semicolon is needed to split the "will be released" part.
Edited to replicate another FA with receive same treatment.
Likewise, I have some issues with the last sentence of the second paragraph of the lede. First, should Temple be capitalized? Second, you say Samus must travel to the temples, but you don't say why. Isn't that important? Third, perhaps the bit about the Space Pirates and Dark Samus should be a separate statement, since IIRC those battles were separate from the Ing/Luminoth battle.
Fixed a little. But the Space Pirates/DS is to show that the Ing aren't the only problem.
A source is needed for "The events of Echoes take place six months after the events of Metroid Prime."
Didn't find, reworded.
Something I notice that's missing is total number of units sold (not just in 2004, but overall since released). That is important, I would imagine.
I couldn't find newer data outside of forums (it says it's NPD numbers, but people normally complain when this kind of source is used...).
Should its place in chronology in the MP trilogy be mentioned in the lede? Just an idea...
Don't know, but decided not to put.
For the image in gameplay, should it be "heads-up display" or "head-up display"? The former redirects to the latter.
The wording "heads-up display" is still in the gameplay section.
Two more concerns. First, in the setting section, I really don't like the wording of "One day" in regards to the meteor strike. Since the source you have for that sentence says "five decades ago", and MP3 was 6 months after MP2, then couldn't you logically say "About five decades prior" or something, instead of the vague "one day." The other concern is larger, in that the entire synopsis section is without a source, which I find that problematic. Is there a reason for that, other than that we are to assume the game is the source? Shouldn't the article rely on secondary sources? ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 01:54, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
Done the first. The second, sources are nice but not a requirement. Gary King (talk) 20:48, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
Could you point me to the discussion that sources are not a requirement? The way you said that freaks me out a tad, per FA crit. 1c -
Factually accurate : claims are verifiable against reliable sources, accurately represent the relevant body of published knowledge, and are supported with specific evidence and external citations; this requires a "References" section in which sources are listed, complemented by inline citations where appropriate
Sorry, but thinking about it further, I oppose based on that. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 01:47, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
I've never had a problem with the synopsis of any previous FAs. How can certain things be sourced when there isn't always a quote available? Gary King (talk) 01:56, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
Consider it unactionable, but I can't support something that large that is unsourced. I was told that the game was considered an "acceptable primary source"; that alone is murky in my book, as I thought we were supposed to rely on a combination of primary and secondary sources. I cannot believe that there is no available source from some agency (Nintendo would be the best bet) that does not have a plot outline. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:23, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
For a book or movie, I might be fine accepting that (since you can put the page # or the time in movie). I stand by my position in this one, though. I asked before, but you didn't really answer, can you point me to the discussion that says sources are not a requirement for a featured video game article? ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 03:45, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
There's probably a discussion out there but I don't usually hang around WP:VG so I wouldn't know where it is, but Fuchs might know. In any case, I've added references to the Synopsis section, so please check it out now. Gary King (talk) 19:57, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
Much better. Having read Nintendo Power, I think that is a perfectly acceptable source for the plot. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 15:52, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
In the in general case, when dealing with works of fiction, it is perfectly acceptable for plot and other in-universe details to be sourced to primary works as long as 1) that's not the only aspect the article deals with (per WP:NOT#PLOT and WP:N and 2) if secondary sources are available, they can be used. For video games, you are rarely going to get a full plot understanding from secondary sources, but anything (reviews, etc.) can be used at least to establish the opening parts. --MASEM 23:14, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
One more concern before I declare my !vote. The image of the box art doesn't really pass the fair use criteria, does it? First, the "Purpose of use" on the image page says "Metroid Prime 3: Corruption". If you've copied the rationale from elsewhere, you need to read it again to make sure it still applies. Second, though you use it in the article, it's just.... there. There's no text saying "cover art" or something like that. Also, as far as I know, aren't you supposed to explain the image somewhat? I, for one, would like to know what the symbols mean. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 15:52, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
Thanks I fixed the mention of Corruption. The fair use is sufficient for the image's use in the article—images have already been checked above by Awadewit. Gary King (talk) 16:16, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
Good enough - I'm ready to support now. While there still might be outstanding issues (such as writing), I believe that the article is now the definitive source for information on the topic, anywhere online. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 16:46, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
I added it to Source. Gary King (talk) 19:33, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
Oppose - man, you really don't waste time with closing them Peer Reviews, eh? Looks close, but there are some issues with the prose that need to be addressed:changed to support 21:53, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
"Metroid Prime 2: Echoes is a first-person action-adventure video game developed by Retro Studios and published by Nintendo for the GameCube video game console. It is the second game in the Metroid Prime trilogy, following Metroid Prime, and the first Metroid game to have a multiplayer feature." I dunno, personally I happen to dislike the whole wall of blue greeting people as they start reading. Is the "first person" part that important? Is telling us it follows Metroid Prime that important either?
The "first-person" is to denote it is like an FPS, but with less focus on shooting. I reworded to denote it's a direct sequel to Metroid Prime, so very similar to it.
"Echoes follows a theme of light versus dark, similar to another game published by Nintendo, The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past, whose development team advised Retro Studios on the concept's development. " This sentence doesn't tell me much, disassociated as it is with the other story elements, and "to another game" bit just sounds vague and bizarre as phrased.
"The game was released in North America, Europe, and Australia in 2004, and in Japan in 2005, and will be released for the Wii in 2009 with updated graphics and take advantage of the Wii controls as part of the Play on the Wii selection." or, put a period after 2005. And create a new sentence.
"Nintendo launched a viral marketing campaign to promote the game that included several websites written in an in-universe style. Echoes was well received by most critics, and received comments focusing on its campaign and graphics, which was considered one of the best on the GameCube. However, the game received complaints regarding its steep difficulty level and the average quality of the multiplayer component. " 'included several websites written in an in-universe style' - ehhhhh. Not grabbing me. "and received comments focusing on its campaign and graphics" - comments?
Yeah, Gary King is a man who rushes. The first, tried to do something; the second I had already removed, and third, changed following the previous commenter; the fourth, removed the former (no need to summarize everything in the lead) and reworded the latter. The igordebraga≠ 23:45, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
00:10, 19 November 2008 (UTC): Article passes the GA. 04:19, 19 November 2008 (UTC): The FAC is started. Simple. But he's a great editor nevertheless. igordebraga≠ 22:13, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
The amount of time between an article being promoted after GAN and its nomination to FAC isn't directly related to how well written it is. I'm fine if you call me a poor writer, but please don't assume bad faith and think that I tend to rush nominations. Gary King (talk) 22:19, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
"The gameplay revolves around solving puzzles to uncover secrets, platform jumping, and shooting enemies with the help of a "lock-on" mechanism that allows circle strafing while staying aimed at an enemy." This is rather breathless with the lock-on bit. Try ending at enemies and starting a new sentence explaining the lock on mechanism.
"The game contains additions that include new power-ups for Samus, including the Screw Attack, which allows Samus to jump in midair and off of certain surfaces; and new beam weapons, which, unlike in previous games, have limited ammunition." Two guesses on what the two issues are with this sentence.
"The safe zones are either permanent or need to be activated. " How does one activate them?
"The game's heads-up display simulates the inside of Samus' helmet and features a radar, map, missile ammunition meter, health meter, and health bar" It's not quite clear you are referring to Samus' health, et al in this section.
"The multiplayer mode allows up to four players to engage in combat using a split screen. It has six arenas and two modes: Deathmatch and Bounty, the latter of which focuses on collecting coins that injured characters drop. Multiplayer in Echoes features the same control scheme as the single-player mode and includes the lock-on system." - don't go all "the multiplayer mode" on me when we haven't talked about it before. Explain the gametypes if you're going to talk about one of them.
1st: considering I link to the previous game gameplay, reworded. Tried to fix the rest. igordebraga≠ 23:45, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
"Echoes takes place on Aether, a planet inhabited by the Luminoth, a race that protects the planet's pure natural energy, the Light of Aether." repetitious structure
Added some words.
"One day, a meteor collides into the planet and leaves a scar that burns the Agon Plains, floods Torvus Forest, " - um, who gives a crap about Torvus forest and agon plains? It seems like by cutting out these details, the plot could be slimmed down.
It's just for readers not to be much lost when "Agon Wastes" and "Torvus Bog" appear in "Story"... but removed the names. igordebraga≠ 23:45, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
"Named Dark Aether, it forms evil creatures to balance the Luminoth, called the Ing: cruel shapeshifting creatures that can possess bodies of the living, the dead, and the artificially intelligent, and who intend to destroy the Luminoth." awkward start with an unclear subject; tacked-on sentence about the Ing, repetitious structure
"Failing to return the Marines back alive" - gah.
To me, it seems the entire second paragraph of plot could be turned into "Samus travels to different locations across Aether, defeating powerful bosses and restoring light yadda yadda."
Reduced it a bit.
"If the player has collected 100% of the in-game items, a post-credits scene shows Dark Samus reforming herself." This comes out of nowhere, and since it's not discussed previously doesn't make much sense. Recast to be less game-centered.
Added some words, but I can remove.
"Nintendo ordered Retro Studios" order eh? Who does he think he is?
"After the successful release of Metroid Prime" How was it successful?
"They also created a more immersive storyline that focused less on the Space Pirates and Metroids." who are the developers to decide their succeeded in creating an immersive storyline. I'd likes some qualifier to that. Also, something should explain why focusing less on the Space Pirates and Metroids was a departure.
"because the game also used a light and dark concept" oh come on, you can explain it, "the game's protagonist travels between light and dark worlds yadda yadda"
Reworded the rest.
"The "Hunters" multiplayer theme is a remix of Super Metroid's "Upper Brinstar" theme" perhaps you should preface these examples by explaining they adapted music from previous Metroid games?
The I Love Bees bit should be explained out (that it was viral marketing/ARG for Halo 2)
"Despite positive reviews, some critics found problems with the game" The positive reviews part is a given considering previous text, just axe it.
the constant use of "complained " sounds a bit POV
"and 40,000 copies in Japan after its release there" 40,000 copies during the same time frame? it's not clear in the prose
"It was also rated"
keep the same citation scheme: in "the 15th best GameCube game by IGN, and the 13th best by GameSpy." the IGN ref should come after the award is named.
I had already fixed before your post. Did you review a previous version somehow? igordebraga≠ 23:45, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
Please reply to the above in a block below so I can keep track of what's being done and all. --Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 02:03, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
I've performed a series of copyedits fixing my concerns outlined above, but I'm concerned about the length of the reception section. There are only three reviews by my count for positive reviews, for example; I'll see about gathering up some MSM sources from LexisNexis. -Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 00:47, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
Alright I'll get right on it. Frankly, Development is the hardest to expand, so Reception shouldn't be that bad. I'll fish around. Gary King (talk) 00:37, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
I've added three more positive reviews. Thoughts? Gary King (talk) 02:44, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
It's shaping up. I only have two things left, really: 1), why is the game citation segregated from the rest of the refs, and 2) the reception prose is clunky. There's too much "Publication X's Reviewer Y" and lots of similar phrasing and word choice, such as "enjoyed". Perhaps lumping together similar statements would help improve flow (Publication X's Reviewer Y and Publication Z's Review Ω pointed out the graphics and ≈ as postive aspects of the game." --Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 03:59, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
I find the long quotes look better in a separate Notes section. They are notes, after all, considering they reference the article's subject itself. Also, I've cleaned up Reception; thoughts on it now? Gary King (talk) 03:10, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
I just think it's weird having a single note all by its lonesome. The reception section looks much better; I'll do a final review sometime this weekend. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 03:28, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, but there the notes section has more than one note in it. Anyhow, the reception looks better now, eliminating my concerns, so I support. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 21:52, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
Did you replace the questioned source? If so, with what? Ealdgyth - Talk 14:33, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
I didn't replace it. It was originally a Famitsu source; someone else added the URL to it to use as an online mirror for the information. I just removed the URL. Gary King (talk) 16:00, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
"The events of Echoes take place some time after Metroid Prime." I always prefer "is set" in these instances so as to establish a firm in-universe basis, but that's probably personal. Same for other instances (start of "gameplay" and others). Anywho, "takes place some time after" does not mean anything and just sounds vague.
The primary concern, "some time", has not been addressed.
Replaced, but don't know if well enough.
"sends her to rescue Marines"—it will be obvious to us gamers, but non-gamers may be confused by this. You need establish that these are not "marines" based on any actual national force, UK, US, etc.
"There, she discovers the Marines were slaughtered". I always prefer "that"s in sentences, but they're usually not necessary. However, it does not sound right here without it. Take this one with a pinch of salt, though.
There's no reference to gameplay besides the genre and multiplayer feature. There should be at least one sentence establishing the core gameplay premise of the game. Something akin to the second sentence of "Gameplay". Consider incorporating "Development" by referenceing the game's music and/or actual development.
"written as if taking place in the game universe". But the games, sharing a series, also share the same universe. I think it would be more apt to state "Metroid universe", as "universe" nearly always applies to the series, and not the game.
"Echoes' campaign". This is gaming jargon; stick with "single-player mode" or something similar.
"Over 470,000 copies of the game were sold in North America" Past tense? Sold as of when, ie. what time period?
The Reception section shows that is in 2004.
It still needs to be in the lead if mentioned. Readers should not have to read "Reception" so that this makes sense.
"it received several video game industry awards, including spots on top games lists by Nintendo Power and IGN". Bothe aren't techncially awards, so I'm not sure if "including" can still be used here. Anywho, it may be better to replace with an actual award so the prose runs more smoothly in this sentence.
Might need rewording, but done.
"Equipment players collect include the Screw Attack, which allows Samus to jump in midair and off of certain surfaces; and beam weapons that have limited ammunition". Jumping in mid-air is what the Double Jump is; you need to express what it is more accurately. It would be better to say that it was reintroduced in this game, so as to establish context. Not sure about the semi-colon—looks slightly needless with the "and" there. Mention that the beam weapons are "upgrades", and not just the same beam but with limitations.
", the player's health bar," If we are to assign health as a characterisitc of the player then we can do so with ammunition and so on. Inconsistent.
"Several visors are available, and each performs a different function that include searching for enemy weaknesses, interfacing with mechanisms such as force fields and elevators and retrieving text entries from certain sources, highlighting objects that can be scanned, revealing and highlighting interdimensional objects or cloaked enemies, and creating a visual representation of sound." This sentence is way too long (Snake?). Don't be reluctant to elaborate further so that this aspect serves as its own paragraph.
Broke the first part.
I'm not sure that that's sufficient—it's still an unwieldy list. I know I'm being awkward, but try splitting the list in two, with a type of "and also" or something similar, if that makes sense.
Broke yet again.
Not sure about the semi-colon in the last paragraph. This section is pretty comprehensive, although you probably should mention the Morph Ball. A good way to link it in as a fresh concept is to reference the bosses that could only be defeated by the ball, which I think was a series first.
Replaced it with a comma. But the intention was to show new features (the old ones, the link to Metroid Prime#Gameplay will show).
I may be missing something, but the comma change isn't showing on my screen.
"off of certain surfaces, and" How?
"Space Pirates set up a base on Aether after detecting Phazon on the planet". I don't think these terms have been explained up until now. This should be solved by linking to the series article.
Put Phazon clearer, but I don't know if SP needs more info.
Plot has the "A-B-C" structure. If you don't mind, I'll save time and not review this part, but will just recommend that it be rewritten in the style of an overview. Purge sentences like these: "Deceased Marines suddenly rise and attack her, apparently possessed, and she fights them off." Although covering a different area, the "Setting" section manages this well.
"The developers decided to go in a different direction from the original game and used new sound models, weapon effects, and art designs." I feel that this sentence is questionable since the game uses fundamentally the same gameplay mechanics. Reword so as to not convey the concept in this way.
""something that everyone understands, the conflict between good and evil"". After noticing dubious punctuation, I traced this quote to the source. Anywho, you've contracted the quote while passing it off as the original. Don't you need to use ellipses when doing this? Actually, in the original, it references this as the conflict between "good and evil", so I'm not sure if the quote is entirely honest/appropriate.
Put the punctuation as it is in the article.
Woops; misread it. Apologies. ;-)
"Nintendo launched several websites to kick off a" Watch out for informal language. Try "initiate"; "engender" probably too flowery for some people's liking, but I digress...
Believe it or not, "internet" is actually a proper noun. Should be capitalised.
Again, the second sentence is way too long. Sentences such as these need to be split up. "that featured grainy QuickTime videos". "grainy"?
Reworded to show the intention of the "grainy"
It's still quite long, I think.
I don't know how to reduce. Instead, I broke a section to turn the "block" paragraph shorter.
"The game was considered suitable for players of any age by Computer and Video Games, which called Echoes an essential purchase for anyone with a GameCube." It would probably be more appropriate if you just quote it here.
"Bryn Williams from GameSpy complimented the tight controls". Again with the informal language.
"They also considered the game to have too little voice work." Just generally a funny way of wording things. Reword please.
"Computer and Video Games was disappointed that Echoes was not as innovative in terms of gameplay as Metroid Prime, and called the multiplayer mode a "half-hearted" feature. The Age's Jason Hill was disappointed by the lack of innovation in Echoes," Both "disappointed" and "innovative" are repeated in consecutive sentences here.
I'm not a fan of the positive–negative layout here; it really is basic. What's more, aspects, such as multiplayer are discussed in separate parts of the section even though the subject is the same. Criticisms and praise should be integrated; and yes, I do realise that other FAs have this structure.
Some prosaic reception from Japan would be nice, but not necessary. A lot is made of Japan's reaction to this franchise, so it would be interesting.
Added Famitsu to the Reception box.
What does the MobyGames link offer?
Source 10 is missing author info, as is 12.
Added authors in the ones that credit someone that's not "Staff".
Okay that's about it; you'll notice that I've copyedited the article partially for simple issues. Most of these can be resolved easily, although "Story" and "Reception" issues could take time if you decide change the style of each. Happy editing. Thanks. AshnardTalkContribs 12:07, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
See if more work is needed. igordebraga≠ 16:48, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
Okay, I've left a few responses. I've been impressed with the amendments so far. AshnardTalkContribs 20:10, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
Yep; nice work. The split up of the long sentence was pretty much what I thought was need. Admittedly, some parts are slightly more awkward now, but sometimes that's the sacrifice required for improving clarity/removing errors. AshnardTalkContribs 09:36, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
Comments by Guyinblack25
The article looks pretty good. The only things that stood out to me were some style and prose issues.
There is barely any mention of the development. I would include at leasta sentence to make it representative of the article.
I know "health bar" is a no-brainer for anyone who's ever seen a game, but I think health meter would be more appropriate.
This structure of this sentence is a bit hard to read because of the commas. I'd suggest emdashes around the shapeshifting and possessing part, but the next sentence uses them too. Not sure what would fix this. "Dark Aether becomes home to the Ing, cruel shapeshifting creatures that can possess bodies of the living, the dead, and the artificially intelligent, who intend to destroy the Luminoth."
This is a minor issue, but the first paragraph is considerably larger than the rest. I'd start a new paragraph at the part about the storyline.
In a related issue, I'd move the sentence about the multiplayer component to after the sentence about the screw attack and wall jumping. It feels tacked on where it is now and seems more related to content from the first game. I think this would improve the flow and balance the new paragraphs sizes.
I assume the darker variants of the theme music are for the same areas? If so, I'd tweak the sentence some to make this more clear.
Some of the review scores in the table don't add much because they are too similar. For instance Computer and Video Games and Eurogamer both gave it a 9/10, and Game Informer and IGN a 9.5/10. I'd drop the CVG and either GI or IGN; Eurogamer gives a European perspective.
There's a bit too much direct quoting for my tastes. I'd paraphrase/summarize some more.
It wouldn't hurt to list X Publication Staff for the refs that don't have authors.
I'd list the authors of ref 9 as EGM staff to show it's not 1UP.com staff.
The article looks very good. Once these issues are addressed, I'll be happy to support. (Guyinblack25talk 22:34, 8 December 2008 (UTC))
Should be all done now Gary King (talk) 18:01, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
Support: My main concerns have been addressed. The images have the proper tags and I think the article is well-sourced, comprehensive, and well-written. (Guyinblack25talk 20:33, 10 December 2008 (UTC))
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.