Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of Olympic medalists in table tennis/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Matthewedwards 22:23, 11 August 2009 [1].

List of Olympic medalists in table tennis

Nominator(s): -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 03:45, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Featured list candidates/List of Olympic medalists in table tennis/archive1

Third Olympic medalists list nomination by me. Copy-edits and grammar edits can go straight to the article. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 03:45, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Can you format the "Medals by year" table as it is done in List of Olympic medalists in figure skating? <minor rant>It would be nice if we could get some sort of consistency in these articles for once.</rant> Dabomb87 (talk) 03:49, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think having a sortable function is nicer than not having one... If you think it is necessary to have them in the same exact format, it would be best to contact WP:OLYMPICS. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 03:54, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think I will ... tomorrow. The thing is, with the sortable table, to a reader who's not familiar with these lists, it's not clear what the two-digit numbers mean without hovering over them with the mouse ([[WP:EGG problems). Dabomb87 (talk) 03:57, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Again, contact WP:OLYMPICS. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 04:39, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Addressed comments from Parutakupiu

Comments from Parutakupiu (talk · contribs) — Yesterday, I was going through the many "List of Olympic medalists in <sport>" and this one came out to me immediately as more than ready for FLC and with little to add and/or change to become featured. Surprise, surprise, here we have it today. The issue with the "medals per year" format I'm also experiencing on my nomination. I think this question should really raised at the WikiProject, in hope that a consensus is reached in time, regardless of its impact in the featured candidacy evaluation. Apart from this, there are just a few things that should be done so I can give my thumbs up:
- ~~Alt text should be added to the images that lack it and improved for those that already have it. I think I can help you now on that, if you want.~~
  - I definitely need help on the alt texts, as I really am bad at describing images... -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 04:30, 28 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    - Alt text added. Perhaps I was too detailed on some images, but better to add more than less. Parutakupiu (talk) 23:22, 28 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      - Better than what I could have done. :D -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 01:28, 29 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- ~~The lead text would improve with some tweaks here and there. I'll do that since you gave us, reviewers, permission to do so.~~
  - :D. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 04:30, 28 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    - OK. Lead copyediting concluded. Perhaps it's better if other reviewers check it, because I'm not perfect, far from it. Parutakupiu (talk) 22:01, 29 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- ~~You have a few images (couldn't you find more?) and plenty of blank space created by the tables, so you don't need to add upright to those images.~~ Parutakupiu (talk) 00:56, 28 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  - Done. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 04:30, 28 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    - Nice! Much more pleasing to the eye. One thing you can do is use {{stack}} to pile vertically the images without messing with the [edit] section links, which get all clumped up. You can also place the images between the == Women == and === Singles === headings. Parutakupiu (talk) 11:33, 28 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      - Done stacking. The reason why I put the images after the === Singles === heading is because I feel that it looks visually better than your suggestion. If you feel the need to putting the images between the == Women == and === Singles === headings, then feel free to do so. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 14:27, 28 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        Ended up making that move, while regrouping related images. I kept the "upright" parameter, because there are so many images now that they could spread out beyond the medalist table sections.Parutakupiu (talk) 23:22, 28 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        Fine with me. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 01:28, 29 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support. Parutakupiu (talk) 20:16, 31 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from Truco

Comments from Truco (talk · contribs)

General

Dabs, external links, and alt text check out fine.

Lead

Table tennis is a sport contested at the Summer Olympic Games. The men's and women's singles tournaments have been held at every Summer Olympics since the 1988 Summer Olympics. -- It would be better if you pipe link the last part to ..since 1988 because Summer Olympics is getting over repetitive in just the first two sentences.
A total of seven table tennis players have each won four medals: Deng, Zhang, Liu, Wang Liqin, Yoo, Qiao Hong, and Chen Jing each have four medals; Ma and five other athletes each have three. -- A)No need to state again each have four medals, you stated that beforehand B)Why not state the other five? You listed seven, you may as well.
Since 1992, the winner of the women's singles tournament also won in the other women's tournament;.. -- what other women's tournament?
Besides Deng and Zhang, no one has successfully defended their singles titles; Deng and Qiao Hong (1992, 1996), and Wang Nan (with Li Ju in 2000, Zhang in 2004) have also retained their gold medals, in the discontinued doubles. -- This is confusing, I recommend splitting it because you're talking about doubles and singles and overall is just confusing to decipher which is which.
China has been the most successful nation in table tennis, winning 41 medals; they have won 20 of the 24 gold medals. -- You say of the like its been stated before, but you haven't stated before hand about the 24 gold medals. Are these 24 gold medals the overall gold medal count?

Everything else checks out fine.--Truco ₅₀₃ 20:09, 29 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Truco, I've just made a copyediting of the lead and I think I have corrected all your concerns. Could you confirm? Thanks. Parutakupiu (talk) 22:01, 29 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It sure did.--Truco ₅₀₃ 19:06, 31 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support -- Previous issues resolve/clarified; list now meets WP:WIAFL.--Truco ₅₀₃ 19:06, 31 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from The Rambling Man (talk) 16:40, 10 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Table tennis features in more than just the Olympics, the opening sentence of the lead seems to imply it's Olympics only.

Fixed. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 19:13, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"won five medals" - would be straightforward enough to state which colour medals, and then merge/reword the following sentence.

I don't really know how to... -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 19:13, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"were assured by" reads a little strangely to me - achieved?

Fixed. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 19:13, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"China has been the most successful nation in table tennis" again, in Olympic table tennis.

Fixed. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 19:13, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Not convinced that ref 6 backs up the fact that the medal sweep was unprecedented.

Ref 6 shows the sweeps, while the general reference proves it. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 19:13, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"more than three medals (17)." - I prefer to read prose than parenthesised facts - why not, "With 17 medals, South Korea is ..."?

Done. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 19:13, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"There were four additional bronze medal winners at the 1992 Summer Olympics because no bronze medal matches were conducted" to a non-expert this makes no sense - more bronze medals because no bronze medal matches were played? I know what you mean, but it's ambiguous to a non-expert.

See last reply. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 19:13, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"Zhang Yining of China won gold in every Olympic tournament she competed since 2004." - that's just two then? The caption seems to overblow it a bit...!

She also competed in the women's doubles. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 19:13, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ref 3 - XXIZ olympiad?

Fixed. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 19:13, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Second general ref could have a work like refs 5 to 7?

The second general reference is practically used in every single sentence in the second and third paragraph, which is why I used it as a general. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 19:13, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The Rambling Man (talk) 17:06, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

See my nomination paragraph. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 19:13, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Most of the issues now pointed out by User:The Rambling Man were introduced by a copy-editing round I made some days ago. Since I'm not a native English speaker, my writing is not as good as I'd wish, sometimes. For this I apologize the nominator, because I ended up introducing more things to fix. I tried to address these copy-edit concerns, and hope they are fine now. I also fixed the other issues that the nominator couldn't resolve. Parutakupiu (talk) 21:14, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support, all issues resolved. Dabomb87 (talk) 16:18, 8 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved issues, Dabomb87 (talk)

Comments from Dabomb87 (talk · contribs)

"for ~~both~~ men and women"

Rephrased. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 19:38, 3 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"a figure shared with compatriots Deng Yaping and Zhang Yining" "compatriots" is too informal. Maybe "fellow Chinese players"?

Done. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 19:38, 3 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"each with four"-->with four each

Done. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 19:38, 3 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"Seven players have won four medals, including Qiao Hong and Chen Jing (China), while six others have three."-->Seven players have won four medals, including Qiao Hong and Chen Jing (China), and six have won three.

Done. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 19:38, 3 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"Chen Jing won her first two medals in 1988, representing China, but her last two medals were gained at the 1996 and 2000 Summer Olympics, while competing for Chinese Taipei." I see what you're trying to say, but it's worded confusingly. Try "Chen Jing competed for China when she won her first two medals in 1988, and competed for Chinese Taipei when she gained her most recent two medals at the 1996 and 2000 Summer Olympics."

Directly copied. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 19:38, 3 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"winning a total of 41 medals" "a total of" is redundant.

Done. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 19:38, 3 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"With seventeen medals,"-->With 17 medals,

The number "three" is in the sentence, which is why i chose to use the written format. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 19:38, 3 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think those are "comparable" quanitites here. Dabomb87 (talk) 20:29, 3 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The alt text is pretty good. My one niggle is that information about how the image was taken (e.g. "Side view", "Full body shot") is generally unnecessary. Dabomb87 (talk) 14:22, 3 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hope Parutakupiu replies... -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 19:38, 3 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'll chop those off. Parutakupiu (talk) 23:01, 3 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sources look good. Dabomb87 (talk) 16:18, 8 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I ~~may have asked this before at another FLC, but what makes http://www.hickoksports.com/history/oltabletennis.shtml reliable?~~ Dabomb87 (talk) 14:22, 3 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Parutakupiu inserted the reference, so it is best to ask him. The sentence is already referenced by general ref 2. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 19:38, 3 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I cannot answer that. I've used it on other articles, but was never questioned about it. I could remove that source, but then that final sentence would have no reference confirming it word for word; it might as well be taken out... Parutakupiu (talk) 23:01, 3 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It is referenced by general reference 2, as that reference includes all the information about table tennis in the Olympics. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 04:58, 4 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Andrwsc

References from sports-reference.com don't follow the format requested by the website's owner, here. Use author=Kubatko, Justin and work=Olympics at Sports-Reference.com with the {{cite web}} template to comply (close enough).

Done. Also fixed the references on List of Olympic medalists in basketball and List of Olympic medalists in badminton, though need help on the other Olympic medalists FLs. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 04:58, 4 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"...have been awarded to 55 players from 11 National Olympic Committees (NOC)." Players are not "from" those committees. I see this mistake many times. For example, Michael Phelps is not a member of USOC; but he is a member of the U.S. Olympic Team selected by USOC to represent the United States. Need to change the phrasing used on this list, as a NOC is not precisely synonymous with a nation, although results tables use a shorthand notation that implies something like that.

Changed "from" to "selected from". -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 04:58, 4 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

— Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 23:10, 3 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from Giants2008 (17–14) 22:14, 8 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments –

"Chen Jing competed for China when she won her first two medals in 1988, and competed for Chinese Taipai when she...". "competed for" is a glaring redundancy. I don't mind the "for" that much, so dropping "competed" should be enough to fix this issue.

Done. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 03:25, 5 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"no other female or male player have successfully defended their singles title". "have" → "has".

Done. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 03:25, 5 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"With seventeen medals, South Korea is second to China in the overall medal count". All other medal counts are given as numbers, and I imagine this one should be as well.

"three" is in the sentence, which is why I chose to use the word format. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 03:25, 5 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Caption: "Chinese Wang Hao...". Should be "Wang Hao of China" or "China's Wang Hao".

Chose first one. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 03:25, 5 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Check the captions to see if any more require periods at the end. That always gave me trouble in my nominating days.
Another caption: "Zhang Yining of China won every Olympic event she competed since 2004." Should be "competed in". Also, should it be "has won", since she appears to still be an active player?

Fixed. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 03:25, 5 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

According to the Manual of Style, bolding shouldn't be used to identify items. This is an open issue with various Olympics lists. Do any other reviewers have any thoughts on this? Giants2008 (17–14) 01:27, 5 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- There's a discussion at WT:OLYMPICS about making these tables consistent. I'm reluctant to do anything while the format's still being hashed out. Dabomb87 (talk) 01:36, 5 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  - I hope you would not not support this article just for the sake of this issue. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 03:25, 5 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The one thing I'm still not sold on is the Hickok Sports reference. Is there any chance a more reliable source can be found? Giants2008 (17–14) 22:14, 8 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Read Parutakupiu's comment above on Dabomb87's comment. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 01:48, 9 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.