Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2022 October 29

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October 29

Did the IRA follow the laws and customs of war during the Troubles?

During The Troubles, did the IRA...

• have a clear chain of command that included all its combatants?
• wear fixed distinctive markings visible from a distance?
• bear arms openly?
• grant POW status to any of the enemy combatants it captured instead of torturing and summarily murdering them?
• refrain from abducting, torturing, and murdering civilians?
• conduct all their operations in accordance with all the laws and customs of war?

StellarHalo (talk) 01:13, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

It was estimated that, between 1969 and 1994, the IRA killed about 1,800 people, including approximately 600 civilians. So no, terrorists gonna terrorist. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 02:06, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

Do you happen to know why so many people today including many of the Catholic Irish not only do not see the IRA members as terrorists but also even thought that they somehow deserve a POW status after going on a hunger strike in the Maze? StellarHalo (talk) 02:34, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

I'm not sure that they wanted fully-formalized Geneva Convention POW status -- just mainly recognition that they were politically-motivated, not ordinary common criminals. AnonMoos (talk) 02:44, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

All sides (IRA factions, Unionist militia groups, the British Army) wantonly killed civilians at times. After three lengthy investigations, no single British soldier has ever been held individually responsible for Bloody Sunday (1972), which did not necessarily encourage the use of precisely legally scrupulous tactics by others... AnonMoos (talk) 02:44, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

David James Cleary may yet receive a prison sentence[1] rather than a Mention-in-Despatches. fiveby(zero) 03:49, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

Thanks, but that's happened only within the last month, and hasn't yet resulted in a trial or conviction... AnonMoos (talk) 06:28, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

I wonder why some of these centuries old West Eurofeuds bury the hatchet so soon and others stay like Montagues vs Capulets till almost 2000. Is it true when Henry the something and James the First became king of England Welsh and Scottish nationalists stopped wishing they had the military strength to get everything back? Would a Catholic Irishman somehow becoming king of England and presumably doing the best he can about Brits being dicks to Catholics have stopped over a century of fighting? Presumably it's more about this dickery and retaliation tennis than it is about Catholic vs Protestant (probably even the English Catholics and Protestant Spaniards stopped being bothered long ago) but why did some zones get along better despite being annexed later than Belfast (some German states annexed others by war in 1866 then they fought France together in 1870 and fused 1871 no hard feelings. Or many times in European history a non-native would become leader of X with little to no fight cause he didn't want to be a dick or change much, just wanted native leader's taxes) Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 05:30, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

Relations between two countries which are separated by hundreds of miles (and water), like England and Spain, are generally not in the type of situation which leads to long-term hatreds. Just a few decades after the Armada, Spain was no longer fanatically committed to overthrowing the government of England, and after France started to replace Spain as the dominant and threatening power in Europe, there was already an English-Spanish quasi-alliance in 1667. Historically-contested land borders (which armies have marched back and forth across many times) and civil wars are much more likely to lead to long-term hatreds. The separation between the UK and Ireland was incredibly violent across Ireland (not in offshore naval battles), and it took place just over a century ago (not in 1588), so it's not surprising that it still has lasting after-effects. AnonMoos (talk) 06:28, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

The Troubles (1969-1998) were a conflict between two communities rather than between two nations. Civil wars are always worse. Alansplodge (talk) 11:37, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

I meant in England they stopped caring if a voter or judge was Catholic almost 200 years ago, the Spanish Inquisition also stopped around that time, the Catholic vs Protestant wars mostly stopped in the 1600s but Northern Ireland seems stuck in a time warp. Though it's probably more about British vs Irish than Protestant vs Catholic nowadays. I wonder why some of these beefs are strong like Basque Autonomous Region vs Castile but the South Tyrolese, Corsicans, Provencians, Bavarians, Welsh, Cornish, Frisians etc. comparatively don't seem to care (compared to Ulster unionists and nationalists). And why Sicily and other South regions became a lot different than Northern Ireland. Some similarities but they'd rather make money than fight Rome for independence. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 08:57, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

To be fair to the Nationalist community in Northern Ireland, they were the subject of some blatant discrimination, and all the NI government institutions were dominated by the Loyalists who were determined not to cede any power. Looking at it another way, how would the people of a US state react if told that might be ceded to another country with whom they had no affinity? The whole thing was a mess of historical tangles and still is to an extant. Alansplodge (talk) 11:23, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

Why were they still doing this almost 1970 isn't that a little late? Not insanely late like 1990 apartheid in South Africa but shouldn't Parliament have been able to foresee the area was turning into a powder keg maybe stop letting Ulsterians police Irish parts, let the Irish have motorways too and so on? Also if they let/forced Ireland to take as many farms and plots as they could without any unionist ones going or making the border too crazy they could reduce the IRA's recruiting pool and the amount of barbaric kneecapping. Maybe they really couldn't afford to imprison some of the non-political prisoners long enough/"long enough" or at least not without getting into torture territory (excessive beating(s) or whatever to release quicker) but if they think someone shouldn't be released without being shot or crippled or drilled or sawn or crucified or beaten to the point of torture then they should just shoot them in the brainstem. It seems like maybe they wanted to show informing (and maybe a few others like child rape?) was special and reduce the amount of "screw this, I'm already dead if caught might as well murder my witnesses" but in that case they should just give a long drop hanging or powerful shotgun to brainstem for non-aggravated executions and say we'll treat you proportionately for worse capital offenses. Maybe a worse offender could get blindfolded, earplugged, earmuffed and handcuffed, beaten somewhat then left like that in solitary for a week bumping into walls and soiling their pants then killed instantly without warning or something like that. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 00:07, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

In his book "Unsung Hero" Kevin Fulton describes this clearly. Yes, there was a chain of command. The IRA had a sort of military structure and was organised into brigades or units with a chief of staff and Officer Commanding in each area. Most of the work was done by volunteers who were addressed as volunteers. There was "staff" who were paid pittance from the IRA's illegal business activities like drug dealing and fuel smuggling. They didn't wear a uniform or anything or openly carry arms, they were a secret organisation who engaged in asymmetric warfare strategies. They didn't really take a lot of people prisoner anyway, their main weapon was simply to murder people in the british security forces. Sometimes a civilian was killed because of bad planning or whatever for their bombs. They also carried out punishment attacks on people who live in areas they controlled and their own members, like the famous "kneecapping". So yes, there was torture. Sometimes it was in the context of an internal investigation to identify a mole leaking information to the RUC. However, they had an odd rule never to execute someone without a confession, which could be tortured out of them. 85.210.185.87 (talk) 14:22, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

Um... they sometimes claimed the victim had "confessed", at least under torture. Given some of the stories that have come to light, I'm not sure how much stake one should give to that claim.

See Robert Nairac. The IRA at the time claimed that he had "confessed" to being a British spy before they shot him. One of the murderers later admitted that he did indeed "confess" - his confession consisting of "bless me father, for I have sinned", and nothing more revealing than that. I doubt that this was an isolated occurrence. Eliyohub (talk) 06:37, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

To answer those

• have a clear chain of command that included all its combatants? Yes.

* wear fixed distinctive markings visible from a distance?

* bear arms openly?

No group in a guerilla campaign does that, so no.

• grant POW status to any of the enemy combatants it captured instead of torturing and summarily murdering them?

Given the nature of operations, which tended to be hit and run, there were very few incidents when soldiers were captured. I believe, but could be wrong, there were isolated incidents of off-duty soldiers who'd strayed into the wrong area who were released.

* refrain from abducting, torturing, and murdering civilians?

Generally, yes, an effort was made to avoid civilian deaths. The idea was to attack military targets. In practice, planting bombs in populated areas did result in civilian deaths.

And to answer another poster above, the IRA weren't involved in drug dealing and some of the kneecapping, shutdown of the IPLO and establishment of Direct Action Against Drugs were a response to that. In contrast, the loyalist groups from the late 1980s on saw it as a profitable route to fund operations. Leading loyalist Johnny Adair even okayed a punishment shooting of his own son after the latter jeopardised drug dealing in the Lower Shankill estate by attacking catholic youths who were entering the estate to buy their drugs. (A "safe conduct" policy was in existence.) Valenciano (talk) 09:25, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

The most famous case of captured British soldiers not released was the Corporals killings of two soldiers who didn't deserve to die, but were incredibly sub-moronically idiotic about being in exactly the wrong place at exactly the wrong time... AnonMoos (talk) 23:19, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

Readers may wish to look at Disappeared (Northern Ireland). DuncanHill (talk) 23:43, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

At earth what is the position of the circle with biggest area where no island (no matter how small it is) is inside the circle?

At earth what is the position of the circle with biggest area, where no island (no matter how small it is) is inside the circle? 179.134.99.224 (talk) 02:02, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

Point Nemo Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 02:13, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

So the OP has found Nemo? Clarityfiend (talk) 06:53, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

Thanks I forgot that with no point other than a pole of inaccessibility related circle you will have a circle with bigger area without land inside it. Also, the circle: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EnCdebeW8AEsjtR?format=jpg&name=large 179.134.99.224 (talk) 19:07, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

Curious. My first thought was central Eurasia. DOR (HK) (talk) 09:59, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

nah… in central Eurasia there are lots of rivers/streams that briefly split to form islands. Blueboar (talk) 11:55, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

Anecdotes from yesterday

• The Streltsy sentenced to death after their revolt generally behaved with great courage. Arriving at the place of the beheading, one of them, a certain Ivan called Eagle, pushed the head of the companion who had preceded him away from the block with a slap, exclaiming: "Now let's put mine on!" Peter, struck by such strength of spirit, immediately graced him.
• The crowd's enthusiasm for Louis XIV, King of France, known as the Sun King, sometimes bordered on delirium. When the Duke of Burgundy, eldest son of the Dauphin, was born, the crowd invaded the courtyard and antechambers of Versailles. The King gave everyone his hand to kiss. A commoner, in kissing it, bit it, and explained his act as follows: "If I hadn't bitten you, sire, Your Majesty would never have noticed me!..."

I've read these anecdotes many years ago in some comics. Is it real or just fantasy? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.244.89.142 (talk) 07:45, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

The first is a story is the supposed founder of the Orlov family.

The second is reported by François Guizot in L'Histoire de France

Thank you very much. For Ivan Orel and Spinola, is there some site with a full biography?

ru:Орловы has a bit more, citing Voldemar Balyazin. Google has a preview. fiveby(zero) 15:40, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

For Spinola, what was his full name? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.207.193.99 (talk) 17:32, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

Google has some volumes of François-Timoléon de Choisy's Memoires pour servir a l'historie de Louis XIV, but either my searches are failing or they don't have the correct volume. Maybe Paolo Spinola, 3rd Marquis of Los Balbases? fiveby(zero) 18:31, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

References

The Rose of Versailles

In this chapter, setting in 1762, appears the unnamed village where André Grandier was born eight years before. Can you discovered it from the church tower or other scenes? It could also be Arras, where the Jarjayes family had some lands. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.244.89.142 (talk) 09:41, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

Note that Arras was a major city in the 18th century, a centre of the wool trade, not a village. Have you considered that the artist may have made it up? A fictional village for a fictional character? Alansplodge (talk) 11:21, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

In a page of that chapter is also called "town", then... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.244.89.142 (talk) 11:24, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

Okay, but it doesn't look like any ancient church in Arras that I could see. I don't raelly know how you would research this, other than going through each community in the Pas-de-Calais to find a visual match, a process you are welcome to try yourself; Category:Communes of Pas-de-Calais might be a good starting point. Alansplodge (talk) 11:57, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

OK, but can you help me with that research because I don't have time now? Thank you very much. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.2.233.154 (talk) 12:38, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

Well my guess is that the artist just drew a generic church spire. Alansplodge (talk) 17:43, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

Maybe you're right, but this is an historical manga, then... Can you do that research only to be sure? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.207.193.99 (talk) 18:04, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

Sorry but: The reference desk is not a service that will do homework for others. It should be made clear to questioners that we will give assistance in interpreting questions, help with ideas and concepts, and attempt to point them to resources that might help them to complete their tasks, but that in the end they should do the actual work themselves. (Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Guidelines)

Alansplodge (talk) 11:35, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

Arakhan

Please, can you search if exist a painting of the Mongol general Arakhan and upload it on commons? Thank you very much. --87.14.198.238 (talk) 21:14, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

Before this sudden trickle of requests becomes a flood – isn't there a place for requesting images? --Tamfang (talk) 01:17, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

Genghis Khan

Genghis Khan/Minamoto no Yoshitsune: is it only a legend or? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.14.198.238 (talk) 21:09, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

• According to our article on Minamoto no Yoshitsune, the idea that he later became Genghis Khan is a discredited legend. Does this answer your question? Blueboar (talk) 21:25, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

Apparently the story was invented by Suematsu Kenchō (1855-1920) while he was studying at Cambridge University, according to The Japanese Origin of the Chinggis Khan Legends, which calls the premise "absurd". Alansplodge (talk) 12:58, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

Article now amended accordingly. Alansplodge (talk) 14:58, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

The Great Wall of China - Documentary 2007

Geng Zhou was a real-life person? There are historical information about the Mongol leader and his brother captured by Qi Jiguang? --87.14.198.238 (talk) 21:40, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

Insofar as the information is in a video by National Geographic, it should be presumed to be reliable. --Jayron32 13:21, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

Can you search information about them? There must be somewhere. Thank you very much. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.207.218.135 (talk) 14:11, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

20 July plot

Can you search if there is a biography (birth, military service, and death) about Kolbe, the officer of Führer-Begleit-Division at Wolf's Lair in July 20, 1944? Thank you very much. --87.14.198.238 (talk) 21:45, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

I take it that you have seen our article, Fritz Kolbe, and the references therein? Alansplodge (talk) 11:32, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

They aren't the same person. Please, search about July 20, 1944. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.13.175.219 (talk) 12:24, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

Apologies. The Kolbe in question was only a sergeant who let Stauffenberg leave after the bombing. [2] Alansplodge (talk) 13:11, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

You should be aware before asking that there might be plenty of inaccuracies in the sources you've been taking data first: review. For example, Rudolf Kolbeck was at Grenadier-Regiment 316, and meanwhile, the FBD was out on the front, in 1944. --Askedonty (talk) 12:32, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

Kolbe was the officer in charge at the external checkpoint of Wolf's Lair that day. Can you find his full name, birth date, military career, and death date? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.13.175.219 (talk) 12:51, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

I don't know. It might be possible using the military archives of the German Republic, but are their conditions adequate, "I will use special categories of personal data (...) for research purposes only", what I can make out by now is only that the unit Kolbe was attached to was the Führer-Begleit-Bataillon [3][4][5], but not a Division. --Askedonty (talk) 18:54, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

According to this, the FBB was under the direct control of the Bloke-with-the-funny-moustache, and (I assume) therefore not part of a division. Alansplodge (talk) 22:53, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

I would have assumed that the sergeant in post would have been a grenadier sergeant or a panser-grenadier sergeant, but looking at your link it's more complicated. It is also making it clear that administrative data posterior to 1942 are lost. Not all, but here only about them Askedonty (talk) 19:07, 31 October 2022 (UTC)