Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2023 March 15
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March 15[edit]
Catalan: History of pronunciation[edit]
How was an intervocalic "s" (e.g. in "casa") pronounced in Catalan, around 1500? Was it pronounced Like in Spanish (e.g. casa=[casa]), or like in Modern Catalan (e.g. casa=[caza])? 147.235.211.112 (talk) 13:40, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
- From Phonological history of Catalan:
- Intervocalic sounds were often voiced (circa fifth century AD).
- [...]
- Voiced sibilants remain as such, whereas in Spanish they merge into voiceless sibilants.
- From Gran Enclopèdia Catalana:
- Interiors simples
- El principi general és que les sordes esdevenen sonores (sapere > ‘saber’, vita > ‘vida’, securu > ‘segur’; raphanu > ‘rave’) i que les sonores es mantenen (caballu > ‘cavall’, levare > ‘llevar’, rigat > ‘rega’) o desapareixen (volebat > ‘volia’, sudore > ‘suor’, pavore > ' paor’, ‘por’). Després de l’accent hi ha més casos de conservació: alauda > ‘alosa’ (enfront de laudare > ‘lloar’); o bé totes dues solucions coincideixen: resina > ‘resina’ i ‘reïna’, *incisamen > ‘enciam’ i el valencià ‘encisam’. Nasals i líquides es conserven: poma > ‘poma’, panaria > ‘panera’, *volere > ‘voler’, corona > ‘corona’.
- --Error (talk) 23:33, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
- "Intervocalic sounds" in Latin, e.g. sapere , vita, securu, "were often voiced" in Catalan "(circa fifth century AD)", e.g. in the Catalan words: saber, vida, segur. Yet, it says nothing about Catalan words spelled (in Modern Caralan) with intervocalic "s": Was that Catalan letter "s" pronounced [s] or [z], around 1500 ?
- "Voiced sibilants" in latin, "remain as such" in Catalan. Yet, it says nothing about Catalan words spelled (in Modern Caralan) with intervocalic "s".
- Nor does the last paragraph say anything about it.
- 147.235.211.112 (talk) 08:29, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
- The passage is about sounds, not about spelling. Taken at face value, it also applies to the intervocalic /s/ in Latin casa. The problem is with the adverb often. It appears nevertheless extremely likely (to me) that the voicing transition from Latin /ˈka.sa/ to present-day Catalan /ˈka.za/, /ˈka.zə/, also seen in other words derived from Latin words with intervocalic -s- (acusar, base, cosa, ...), was an instance of the same process but not reflected in the orthography, as it was also not in the spelling of French accuser, Italian accusare, etc. --Lambiam 11:30, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
- Are you sure the French "accuser" (or the Italian "accusare" or the English "accuse") has always been pronounced with [z] rather than with [s]? Actually, this is exactly what I've been asking about Catalan. 147.235.211.112 (talk) 16:56, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
- I'm sure the sound change in French and Italian was not reflected in the spelling. I am not entirely when the sound change happened, which I why I used "extremely likely". The fact that the same sound change is seen in the Gallo-Romance languages and the geographically adjacent Italo-Romance languages suggests though it already occurred in a common precursor in what must have been a Romance dialect continuum. --Lambiam 17:54, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
- Are you sure the French "accuser" (or the Italian "accusare" or the English "accuse") has always been pronounced with [z] rather than with [s]? Actually, this is exactly what I've been asking about Catalan. 147.235.211.112 (talk) 16:56, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
- The passage is about sounds, not about spelling. Taken at face value, it also applies to the intervocalic /s/ in Latin casa. The problem is with the adverb often. It appears nevertheless extremely likely (to me) that the voicing transition from Latin /ˈka.sa/ to present-day Catalan /ˈka.za/, /ˈka.zə/, also seen in other words derived from Latin words with intervocalic -s- (acusar, base, cosa, ...), was an instance of the same process but not reflected in the orthography, as it was also not in the spelling of French accuser, Italian accusare, etc. --Lambiam 11:30, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
- According to our Italian phonology article: "when between two vowels within the same word, it tends to always be pronounced [z] in Northern Italy, and [s] in Central and Southern Italy (except in the Arbëreshë community). A notable example is the word casa ('house'): in Northern Italy it is pronounced [ˈkaːza]; in Southern-Central Italy it's pronounced [ˈkaːsa]." -- AnonMoos (talk) 20:33, 16 March 2023 (UTC)