Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Australian politics

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Nationalist colour issue[edit]

Hey, is there any chance someone good with templates and colours could give me a hand? Our candidates pages for federal elections during the Nationalist Party era, apparently as a shortcut, use the Liberal shade to indicate seats won by Nationalists. However, I'm trying to draw up a candidates page for the same era in South Australia, when there was both a Liberal Party and (their equivalent of the) Nationalist Party contesting elections against one another. Using the normal "Nationalist" colour is too dark in this context, and it really needs a toned-down shade as for Labor/Liberal/National, etc. The Drover's Wife (talk) 10:26, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

For similar situations in the past (i.e. Lee Liberals in Tasmania, federal anti-Hughes Liberals in 1922), I've used Christian Democrat purple (Template:Australian party shading/CDP). It is a fairly hideous shade at the moment (for which I take full responsibility) so if someone were to make it paler I would have no complaints at all, but I've never been able to dig up the right colour. Frickeg (talk) 23:06, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for the suggestion - I was going to go with it as a workaround, but upon comparing it to just using the regular Nationalist colour, the CDP shading is both as dark as the non-toned-down Nationalist one, and uglier than the non-toned-down Nationalist one. Is it possible to come up with an alternative shading of blue to the one being used for the Liberals? It seems like it would have wide applicability. The Drover's Wife (talk) 05:48, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

Electorate template help[edit]

I'm afraid I need help from someone more able with templates again. Electoral district of Murray (South Australia) is wrong about two MPs: both George Dunn and Maurice Parish were elected as Labor MPs and left the party to join the National Party in the 1917 split, and Parish resigned from the National Party to sit as an independent in 1918. At the moment, it just says they were always members of the Nationalist Party, which never existed at state level in that form. If it were a single-member electorate, I could fix this easy, but I have no idea how to do it in that gigantic three-member table. The Drover's Wife (talk) 17:01, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

Sorry I'm only getting to this now. I can fix it, but I see in the meantime it's gone back to single-line. I am strongly opposed to this format for multi-member electorates as it is misleading and also much more difficult to see the proper timeline. I'm more than happy to make the requisite changes to the old template. Frickeg (talk) 10:24, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
I see the value of having the MPs displayed side-by-side, and I'm not wholly opposed to it, but I feel like on a lot of these it's sacrificing accuracy: it's often hard to pin down party changes to an exact day, they include almost no party changes as-is, and they're an absolute cow for someone who isn't really familiar with tables to correct. I find them difficult to read with the dates on the side (such as with long-term MPs having a whole bunch of date ranges listed next to them), so if I'm making minor edits I tend to feel like I have to check the Statistical Register every time to make sure I've read the table correctly whereas normally I'd just go off the electorate article. It also leads to the morass of different-sized tables for different eras, as opposed to the one unified table as in Queensland. The Drover's Wife (talk) 11:16, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
I find the multicolumn form makes it clearer who was serving simultaneously with who else. It is confusing when people jump from one column to another though. I guess it depends which information is most important to represent clearly. Some articles have cascading timeline graphs that look a bit like Gantt charts. I think they are ugly and not helpful on most of the articles Ive seen them on where exactly one person is in office at a time, with no repeats, but it could be very useful if a chart like that could be done in combination with the single list. MPs listed once each down the y axis, time across the x axis, bars for when they were in office. It could support concurrent members and gaps in service, and the colour of the bar could represent the party. I have no idea how to make those charts or how hard they are to maintain though. --Scott Davis Talk 14:13, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
Hypothetically, could we make a multi-member table that does both what the single-list and broader-table approaches do now? If we could list the MP, their party, and their dates of service, then the same for the next MP, then the next MP, and have it all fit I think it'd be a lot more legible and I'd be much keener on the idea than the awkward dates-at-the-end contraption. If we toasted the full dates, and just went with years, it'd probably fit and it'd solve the problem of pinning down the exact date of party changes. It also really needs someone to go through and do a bunch of the party switches (the defecting Laborites in 1917 being easy examples) so that it's easier to copy and paste template text. Separately, I'd also be really grateful if someone could go through and add parties in the first place to a bunch of the SA multi-member lists that still lack them: I've done all the research work on the member lists so it'd be a copy/paste job but trying to get the party data into those tables is too hard for me. The Drover's Wife (talk) 16:56, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
As an example of why I hate the current setup: I just went to fill in succession boxes for Richard Butler, and the current table is confusing as hell for telling me when he was elected and when he left office, if useful for telling me who he sat alongside. It actually doesn't even tell readers when he was elected at all (1902). I think these really need to have a date column for each member if the side-by-side format is to work at all. The Drover's Wife (talk) 05:03, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
Conceptually I prefer the former mufti-column layout as it shows who was in office concurrently, whereas the current single column makes that much harder to see at a glance. I can edit the table quite easily to change time increments, and add in the party changes if you'd like, The Drover's Wife. I think the term column should be changed to election, and link to the election pages, while footnotes on the table could deal with specific dates of events outside of the normal election cycle. ColonialGrid (talk) 05:46, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
I feel like changing the term column would make it more, not less, confusing than it already is. I don't object to the side-by-side format in principle, but it really has some issues that need addressing if it's going to stay: not least, as in the example I just pointed out with Richard Butler and the Electoral district of Barossa that it can't actually tell me when a former Premier was elected to his seat. I feel like there's a compromise here that keeps the side-by-side format and is readable and accurate, but I feel like too much accuracy is being sacrificed with the tables as they are. The Drover's Wife (talk) 06:38, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
Could footnotes be used on the tables to increase the accuracy, but maintain the visual ease of use? ColonialGrid (talk) 11:26, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
I don't think so. Like, the basics of these tables need to be who was in that office when and what party they represented, and they're unable to convey that in their current format. The Drover's Wife (talk) 11:54, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

There's a long term example of the Irish table at Clare (Dáil Éireann constituency)#TDs. It's got TDs changing parties, reorganisations of parties and former TDs returning to the Dáil. How does this structure look to outside eyes? Timrollpickering (talk) 11:09, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

I think it's a better-looking table than what we currently have, and it solves some of the problems: it acknowledges elections and by-elections and isn't just referring to a completely random date range in between which the members stayed the same. It's definitely less confusing. However, it still doesn't acknowledge any party changes that did occur, unless they were re-elected under the new banner at an election, and doesn't have room to implement this at all, which I would see as a big problem. It's also still very difficult to tell exactly which elections are the relevant one to changes in the third, fourth and fifth seats. As we're only dealing with three-member seats here, I don't see why we can't include the date ranges for each member as we would for a single-member seat, though. 11:54, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
My understanding was that the date ranges in the table you removed denoted the period between elections, rather than being arbitrary. Additional rows could easily be put in to show changes in political allegiance - with footnotes states dates and reasons, and I fail to see how footnotes couldn't be used to indicate where members vacate early and by-elections were called. I can easily do this, but it would be a waste of time if I did, and you reverted saying it still failed to indicate what you wanted it to. ColonialGrid (talk) 12:57, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
Across the SA articles, they denote the time in between changes in members, which could be one election but could be twenty years. This is rarely as clear as in the Murray article, and as in the Barossa case I mentioned above there's a past Premier of SA who was elected at a general election that isn't mentioned in the date ranges in that template. (In fact, Barossa is generally a brilliant example of why the current format is confusing as all hell.)
The reason I'm opposed to the footnotes suggestion is because it's either unnecessary (if it depicts party changes as we would a single-member electorate) or it's wrong (if it doesn't, and as in the case of Murray denotes MPs who were fervently anti-Labor for half their time in office as being plain Labor). The existing example of Electoral district of MacKillop, which incorporates the abolished electorate of Victoria, removes all of the ambiguity that exists in cases like Barossa by doing what I'm suggesting and adding term columns for each member, just without the parties, which I imagine could be easily remedied. I'm not sure what the opposition to that is: it keeps the multi-member tables, removes the ambiguity and wide room for error in these articles, and as long as the code isn't too impenetrable would seem to give everyone what they want. The Drover's Wife (talk) 14:38, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
It's easy to break them up into the times they served under certain parties, but if every change gets a spot in the date field, it will get messy and confusing, this is why I suggest footnotes to explain the dates, but use the graphic to show the change in party. Should I give it a try at Electoral district of Murray (South Australia) and then seek further feedback? ColonialGrid (talk) 14:59, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
I'm not quite sure what this would look like, but I see where you're coming from and I'm certainly at least open to the idea. Murray is probably not a bad one to start with, because it's a comparatively simple case. The Drover's Wife (talk) 17:11, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
Am I correct in thinking we're looking for something like this? Because that would be my preferred format. Frickeg (talk) 22:46, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
That is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. I also think especially if you only go with years, as is the case there, it becomes really easy to fully deal with party changes in that format (just as we do for the identical single-member electorate columns). The Drover's Wife (talk) 04:00, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

Crowley quotes being added as entire blocks in various articles[edit]

I'd appreciate other editors' input at Talk:Australian Labor Party#quote on ALP. I've reverted the ALP one, but not the one at History of Adelaide, or others. It seems this editor takes Crowley quote slabs and pastes them in to various articles, without context, with no indication of relevance, and in awkward places like the start of sections. Thanks. Timeshift (talk) 19:41, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

South Australian state election, 2006 no longer a Featured Article[edit]

The article has been delisted as a Featured Article here. It's a pity that editors want to de-list FAs rather than help bring them up to FA state. Does anyone want to help salvage this? Timeshift (talk) 19:48, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

I think it's an inevitability with a lot of these mid-2000s-era FAs because the standards have changed so very much (a then-FA is barely a GA now), and in many cases the specialist editors who worked on them are long-gone from the project. It's going to be beyond your average person trawling FARC to take on these kinds of overhauls, and it's not like we have a surplus of specialist nerds (like say WP:MILHIST) ready to jump in and save them: if anything, we have less of us than when these articles were first written! I think the article would probably need a very substantial rework to pass WP:FA now and that WP:GA might be a better prospect (but would still require some rework as well). The Drover's Wife (talk) 03:34, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
Fair enough. I don't suppose you know where I stand with my triple crown? Does a delisted FA still count? Did it only matter at the time I had three valid articles and i'll always have had the triple crown? Timeshift (talk) 03:43, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
I think it still counts. ;) The Drover's Wife (talk) 04:06, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Wiki Loves Pride![edit]

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  • When? June 2015
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User:Another Believer and User:OR drohowa

There is probably a fair bit of room for some work here, if anyone's interested. Category:LGBT history in Australia is horribly underpopulated: four kinda randomly-chosen organisations, Murder of George Duncan, Tasty nightclub raid, rainbow crossings and the Gay and Lesbian Kingdom of the Coral Sea Islands is not exactly a queer political history! The Drover's Wife (talk) 04:17, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

Historical party articles created but sources give conflicting start/finish years[edit]

After many years, stubs have finally been created for the predecessors of the SA Liberal Union - the National Defence League and Farmers and Producers Political Union! Please be encouraged to fact-check them (good luck!), build on them, link to them from other articles etc. The 1930s may be extremely spotty, at best, but there's no reason why the late 1800s/early 1900s can't have some info! The refs give conflicting info... the biggest example being some refs say the Liberal Union was formed before the 1910 election, while other refs say it was formed after the election! Then there's the other parties and their years. It's a headache, other editors would really be appreciated. Timeshift (talk) 01:18, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

I'm short on time today, but a quick search through Trove confirms that it was definitely after the 1910 election: the election was on 2 April, and the agreement that the merger should happen was in August - I don't have the time right now to check when it actually came into effect. Glad to see these early articles getting some well overdue attention. This is, as I've said before, the downside of relying on secondary sources such as biographical articles for these dates: a lot of this history is poorly-documented in later coverage and academics writing thirty years ago didn't have Trove to pin down exact dates in two minutes. The Drover's Wife (talk) 03:12, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
That's how I understand it, but if that's the case, did UWA (the ref used in the election article) just add together raw results for South Australian state election, 1910 to make two parties? The ECSA claims LU was formed in 1909, as does this ref. I believe there's others I saw but it's always hard to re-locate all refs. Not saying anyone's right or wrong, just pointing out ref contradictions and wondering how do we choose who to go with? Our instinct/beliefs aren't "WP:RS"... Timeshift (talk) 03:24, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
The answer is that we don't know because UWA don't explain their data. UWA generally hasn't been a terribly useful resource for Wikipedia in my opinion: it frequently doesn't provide enough information and it wouldn't be the first time they've papered over party differences to make for a simpler dataset. Nonetheless, if the election was in April, and the agreement that the parties should come together and form a united party happened in August, there's no basis for a claim that the party existed prior to the election. This is another case of Trove as a new research tool showing up past shoddy research in modern secondary sources: detailed newspaper accounts from when it actually happened trump brief, in-passing mentions in later sources. The Drover's Wife (talk) 08:26, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
I did a bit more research, because I expect UWA to stuff up but less so ECSA. The conservative parties were talking about merging in 1909, and there was media in September 1909 with conference support for a merger, but it didn't actually happen until after the 1910 election. There was some cooperation between the three parties at the 1910 election, running a combined "Liberal" ticket at least in the Legislative Council, which is where the confusion probably stems from, but the formation of the Liberal Union as a formal party to which the other organisations actually merged into was in 1910. The Drover's Wife (talk) 09:16, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
I'm not surprised they started talking about it at that point considering the CLP formed federally in 1909. Timeshift (talk) 11:24, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

SA electoral figures[edit]

I would love to do some work on historical South Australian by-elections. The National Library has a CD with PDF files of every South Australian election result ever, and I used to have copies of those files but they were lost in a computer crash some years ago. Any chance any of you have them and could forward them on? The Drover's Wife (talk) 01:56, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

In 2009 I did every SA by-election between 1992 and 1968 by sitting down at the North Terrace Library (State Library...?) and copying the results with pen and paper :P I got lazy and stopped at 1968. I'd love more to be done, but i've done my part! Timeshift (talk) 02:02, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
Haha, not really an option from Perth - but if I can get my hands on those PDF files I'll be set! The Drover's Wife (talk) 02:07, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
I dream of the day that it's legislated for Australian parliament websites to be required to have all election results and detailed (and proofchecked!) MP profiles online. That's my idea of patriotism :P Timeshift (talk) 02:18, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

What style of PM/Premier article design do you prefer?[edit]

Don Dunstan (FA) all-in-one or a Mike Rann/Rann Government seperated style article for Premiers/PMs? I come to this with an open mind. Just interested in seeing what others have to say. Both examples have their merits I think. Timeshift (talk) 06:47, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

I think we need both. A FA-quality treatment of a Premier involves talking in some detail about what their government achieved, but an article about their government will necessarily involve a lot more detail and a much broader remit. A hypothetical Dunstan Government article would tell me a lot more about what his ministers got up to than would be rational in Don Dunstan. The Drover's Wife (talk) 11:28, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

Template:Australian by-elections[edit]

I just noticed, looking at this template, that we've got a bunch of missing pieces when it comes to covering by-elections and casual vacancies. We have lists of lower house by-elections for every state, but not for the Tasmanian Legislative Council or past upper houses in SA and Vic. The WA Legislative Council is at List of Western Australian Legislative Council by-elections as opposed to the lower house at List of Western Australian state by-elections.

For casual vacancies, we have a list for the Tasmanian House of Assembly and the Senate, but not for those in the upper houses in WA, Vic, NSW and SA, and a redlink for the ACT lower house.

1) I'm struggling with a logical way to organise that template that includes all of the above. Any suggestions would be great.
2) How do we deal with cases where houses have shifted from by-elections to casual vacancies, as in WA, SA and Vic? I am not a fan of the approach taken with WA here.
3) How, generally, should we name these articles? Having, for instance, List of New South Wales state by-elections and List of New South Wales Legislative Council casual vacancies seems a bit inconsistent but I can't think of a better idea. The Drover's Wife (talk) 17:00, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
I feel like the fact that so many Tasmanian and Victorian upper house by-elections have been held in conjunction with a regularly scheduled election is part of the issue here. I mean, even federally you could argue those awful Senate elections they used to have in House-only elections (like in 1966) were technically by-elections. Regarding each point:
1) Could we perhaps do a division by upper/lower houses? So instead of the current "Federal", "State" divisions you'd have "Lower house" and "Upper house". Alternatively it could be divided to separate by-elections and casual vacancies. I think both would work, but I lean towards the latter just for consistency.
2) Where there has been a shift, I would suggest two separate articles (i.e. List of Western Australian Legislative Council by-elections and List of Western Australian Legislative Council appointments), especially if we go with the by-elections/vacancies division suggested above.
3) I think the appointment ones should be called List of New South Wales Legislative Council appointments, in line with List of Australian Senate appointments. However, this raises the issue of what to do about countbacks, which do not really fit into either category. Perhaps a third division for those states (WA, Tas, ACT) that use countbacks, and separate lists for them (using the name List of Western Australian Legislative Council countbacks).
While we're looking at these articles, they could do with a bit more uniformity in structure, chiefly in whether we list them from the most recent or in simple chronological order. We picked up the most-recent thing from the UK, but I wouldn't necessarily be opposed if we thought that simple chronological was better. As long as we don't follow the "both" approach taken by Queensland, which lists them by decade with the decades in reverse order but within the decades in simple chronological! Frickeg (talk) 03:42, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for a really helpful response. I was already leaning towards going with #1 and #2 if I didn't get any feedback, and #3 is a better idea I hadn't thought of. Unless anyone else has any input, I'll organise them on that basis. Any ideas about how to organise that template on the basis of that article structure?
I'm in favour of listing them reverse chronologically for these articles, chiefly because they're usually bloody long and the more recent ones probably likely to be of more interest to more people. I'm definitely in favour of a uniform structure within those articles though, and that Queensland example is definitely very strange (and which I'm happy to deal with). The Drover's Wife (talk) 04:14, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
I've done a possible redesign on the template page; feel free to revert if people disagree. I'm sure I've left out some of the early stuff (I've no idea what happened with the Qld LC, for example). Fine with reverse chronological. Frickeg (talk) 04:22, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
I like that a lot, and it's much better than any ideas I'd come up with. Three things I'd change if people are okay with: piping "Commonwealth" onto the House of Representatives to make it clearer since the federal/state separation is removed, appending (historic) to the upper houses that no longer use by-elections, and changing "casual vacancies" to "appointments" since countbacks are also casual vacancies. Thoughts? The Drover's Wife (talk) 04:37, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
The appointments change and the "historic" stuff I definitely agree with. I don't know that we need Commonwealth on the House and the Senate (there's only one of each, at least until Fred Nile gets his way), but if we are going to do something like that I'd prefer "Federal". Frickeg (talk) 04:53, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
On the earlier suggestions, I think the idea would be good to have separate categories for upper house by-elections, appointments and countbacks. If the electorate was involved for voting in the new MLC, it should go in by-elections. If it was an appointment to fill a vacancy, perhaps it'd go in appointments (that could include the pre-1978 NSW upper house where they voted for their own replacements, as well as those appointed by the state Governors in the early days). Kirsdarke01 (talk) 05:13, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

United Patriots Front[edit]

Presumably we don't need an article on any group that has ever organised a demo.--Grahame (talk) 02:46, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

Interesting to see an article on this but not the Reclaim Australia lot. These guys have received some coverage, but I'd say they're just short so far. Frickeg (talk) 02:48, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
Yep. These guys don't come close. I'd sit on the fence about Reclaim Australia: it probably passes GNG but we don't have equivalent articles for many organisations of similar notability on the left. The Drover's Wife (talk) 04:08, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

Early party systems, part 127[edit]

I'm making pretty good progress with tracing the early party history in South Australia, but I can see an issue coming that has ramifications for this period in all states. In South Australia, the Labor Party and the conservative National Defence League both date from 1891, with both parties formally nominating MPs for office in that decade. However, parties didn't become fundamental to who was actually in power until 1906: until that point, there was still a liberal bloc, a conservative bloc, and the Labor Party, with the NDL members presumably forming part of the informal conservative bloc. The list I'm drawing up for the 1896-1899 parliament looks quite strange with all the Labor and NDL members marked, but fundamental people like the liberal Premier, Charles Kingston, with an unmarked affiliation.

Does anyone have any good ideas about what to do with people like Kingston? This is something which quite a few sources have addressed by just treating the liberal bloc and the conservative bloc as parties even though they weren't. The best solution I've come up with is listing them as "Independent (Liberal)", thus showing that they weren't a member of a party but still showing what side of politics they were on. Anyone have any better ideas?

(I am really, really not a fan of some of the other ways this has been addressed. The table we have for the 1896 election, based off the UWA database, lists "Liberals" and "Independent Liberals" even though the Liberals weren't a party and had no organisation to endorse candidates, but rather were an informal group of people with vaguely similar views who propped up particular ministries. I'd love to know how the heck they're defining the difference between the two in the instance.)The Drover's Wife (talk) 08:54, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Riverina Movement[edit]

Does the Riverina Movement of the early 30s warrant an article? Just noticed it linked at Thomas Collins (Australian politician). Hack (talk) 09:04, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Google says probably, turning up a bunch of good sources on the first page. It doesn't seem to have been a real push for statehood, more of a spectacular regional flareup of the right-wing backlash against Jack Lang, but there's enough for it to pass WP:GNG off that first page alone. The Drover's Wife (talk) 12:25, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Independents creating political parties[edit]

In the Senate (and the House, to a lesser extent) we have a lot of the independents forming their own political parties, and I want to hash out how each one should be treated in articles (i.e. whether they are independents or members of their parties). Here are the main ones I can think of and whether they ever had representation:

Party Founder Reps in Senate? Reps in House? State reps?
Palmer United Clive Palmer Yes Yes Yes
Katter's Aus Bob Katter No No Yes
Nick Xenophon Team Nick Xenophon Yes No Yes
Jacqui Lambie Network Jacqui Lambie Yes No No
John Madigan Farming and Manufacturing Party John Madigan Yes No No
Glenn Lazarus Team Glenn Lazarus Yes No No
Brian Harradine Group Brian Harradine Yes No No
Janet Powell Independents Network Janet Powell Yes No No
Vallentine Peace Group Jo Vallentine Yes No No

If there's any I missed please add them to the table

The main one this applies to now is Nick Xenophon, as he has said he will run lower house candidates at the next election. Because it's effectively an extension of Nick Xenophon Group (and No Pokies), I'm more inclined to think he should be seen as NXT rather than Independent. On the other hand, Madigan, Lambie and Lazarus have barely achieved registration if anything, so they should be independents until proven otherwise. I can't think of a specific rule to explain how this distinction should be drawn, but I'm not so confident that using the APH distinction is worthwhile, given the status of Nick Xenophon. – Hshook (talk) 03:50, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

There is a long history of independents making varying degrees of getting other independents elected, and having a ballot line for that purpose. Peter Lewis in South Australia is another one beyond those mentioned on your talk page, and again, find me a source that didn't call him an independent. At no point were any of these people except Katter and Palmer considered to be minor party politicians beyond the technical fact that they had a registered political party as a line on the ballot paper. There was no party, period. There won't be a party if Nick Xenophon runs candidates in the lower house, just as there wasn't a party when he got Bressington and Darley elected. They'll be independents who got up under his banner.
This is not a difficult distinction. Palmer and Katter, and people like Meg Lees before them, had caucuses (where appropriate), party structures, policies, and all the usual things you'd expect of a minor party. All of the above are just ballot lines, and if we refer to them as being anything other than independents we'll be about the only source that does. The Drover's Wife (talk) 05:46, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Fair points, but I disagree that if NXT runs lower-house candidates then it isn't a party; if Palmer and Katter run caucuses and have structures etc., then Xenophon has (or at least, will have) the same. Bressington and Darley were elected under his banner, sure, but I don't see much distinction between the Nick Xenophon Group and say, the politicians who get up under the ALP, Liberal or Greens banners. The two are independents but are strongly linked to Xenophon and therefore the NXT. Perhaps this is an issue for after the next election. – Hshook (talk) 07:29, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
One other thing, would this be different if, instead of "Nick Xenophon Team", it was another name? Does the presence of the founder's name change its status? – Hshook (talk) 07:30, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
I can think of a few others - Irina Dunn, Mal Colston, and at state level people like Marie Bignold and Franca Arena. I tend to think if Xenophon actually runs candidates next election for the lower house as NXT then maybe we should consider him, but really the parliamentary website should be the go-to source here. All those folks are still listed as independents as far as I know. (Bressington/Darley is actually a different thing altogether as they were elected under an independent ticket; SA has the unique ability to put additional descriptors after "independent" on the ballot-paper. Better examples would be the various Moore/Osborne independents in the ACT Assembly, who were all considered independents during their terms.) Frickeg (talk) 08:23, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
(edit conflict) There would be some sign that there was any intention to create a structure, caucus, or anything besides than an independent trying to get like-minded independents elected. KAP, PUP, and the far bigger one that I forgot earlier - Pauline Hanson's One Nation - were individually branded but were very obviously parties in the same way that the Greens and Family First are parties. If you were an MP of any of those three and you voted against the direction of the party, you'd expect to get thrown out and to wind up an independent. When Ann Bressington and Nick Xenophon fell out spectacularly, there was nothing to expel her from because she'd been an independent from day one (as had been Helen Szuty and Dave Rugendyke elected as running mates on named independent tickets in the ACT). Xenophon has shown absolutely no sign of using NXT any differently than Michael Moore and Paul Osborne did in the ACT (and everyone else we've discussed but KAP, PUP AND PHON tried to do); if he did, or if he won and they didn't sit as independents, it'd be a different story. The Drover's Wife (talk) 08:25, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

List of elections in [state][edit]

Would there be any interest in coming up with and rolling out a less uglier alternative to the index at List of elections in South Australia to tie all our election, results, members and candidates pages together? I find it a really helpful index to navigate between pages, but there doesn't really seem to be an equivalent in other states, and it's a little unsightly how it is. The Drover's Wife (talk) 12:30, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Oh god. That is hideous. But it looks very helpful, so I would support rollout. – Hshook (talk) 14:19, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Wikiconference Australia 2015 cancelled[edit]

Folks, just letting you know we will not be proceeding with Wikiconference Australia 2015 originally proposed for 3-5 October 2015. Thanks to those of you who expressed your support. You are free to attend the football finals instead :-) Kerry (talk) 07:48, 3 July 2015 (UTC)