Talk:British Isles

Briton Isles or North-West Isles

Why not call them Briton Isles or North-West isles. It eliminates any need of nationalism. Negativecharge (talk) 22:32, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

I appreciate your sincerity but how would calling the Atlantic Archipelago the "Briton Isles" make it less political than calling it the British Isles? Are you under the impression that the Irish are "Britons"?North-West Isles, on the other hand, approximates closely with the verifiable, historic name in Irish for the archipelago, Oileáin Iarthair Eorpa (Western European Isles/Islands of Western Europe). Richard Tyrrell (talk) 09:05, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Its original research from the looks of it anyways so wouldn't be an acceptable alternative. Mabuska ^(talk) 10:27, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

I think the Isles are called the British Isles in Wikipedia because that is their actual name, as known throughout the world. It's not even original research, it is invention. The Skywatcher and me (talk) 20:06, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Because that isn't what they're called. Simple enough reason. 109.255.90.107 (talk) 16:43, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Incorrect reference?

Reference 16 is used to support the words "imperialist overtones", but when I looked at the source I couldn't find these words at all (p. 17. ISBN 9780567082800). Is the source not the correct one, or has someone engaged in a bit of interpretation? Either way, this needs correcting. Could someone else confirm that the source doesn't contain these words. Van Speijk (talk) 11:50, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

It supports the phrase "As a result, Britain and Ireland is becoming a preferred description" not sure what you are talking about as I can't see "imperialist overtones" in that paragraph. Am I missing something here? --Snowded ^TALK 13:25, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

The reference is used twice. It also appears in the Etymology section, 3rd paragraph. Van Speijk (talk) 16:22, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

I've changed the sentence to "...cloaking a form of Anglocentrism...". What is actually said in the ref is "...cloaking the idea of a 'greater England', or an extended south-eastern English imperium..." However, those precise words (which are beautiful) would read quite strange out of context. --RA (talk) 16:48, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

I'm not reverting, as it should be (and should have been) discussed first. The referenced text does not mean "...cloaking a form of Anglocentrism...". It is refering to English imperialism. And that is what it should say. Daicaregos (talk) 16:56, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

I reverted, it was bold but I think that wording is further away from the text which says : "It has been perceived as clouding the idea of a 'greater England', or an extended sourth-eastern English imperium, under a common ~Crown from 1603 onwards" It goes on to talk about "raw English aggrandizement, crude English colonialism". I think from that we can keep the imperialism but maybe qualify it as English? --Snowded ^TALK 17:01, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

Saying: "...cloaking a form of English imperialism..." would be fine by me. Daicaregos (talk) 17:04, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

Careful here about the difference between "Inperialism"/"Imperialist" and "Imperium". The point here is what are we trying to say? I think it's that "British Isles" is now sometimes replaced by terms such as "Britain and Ireland" or whatever, and to explain why. I acknowledge this to be the case, but I wonder whether pulling out stuff about SE English Imperium is appropriate. I wouldn't have thought such arcane ideas have anything to do with the apparent decline in the use of British Isles. It's about the fact that some people in Ireland don't want to be associated with things British, so to me, the reference is not a good one; it doesn't explain the "why?" Van Speijk (talk) 17:34, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

The hostility to BI as a term is due to its association not with "things British" (that may be your opinion but its not what the reference says) but with British rule when Ireland was a part of the Empire. The reference does not say in 1603, but from 1603 onwards so its hardly arcane. Further the imperial nature of British power evident through to the early part of the last century. The reference clearly associates a reluctance to use the BI term with English imperialism. --Snowded ^TALK 17:52, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

I don't see at all how it is controversial since the use of the term British isles predates the people of Great Britain and thus the people of the United Kingdom of Great Britain considering themselves British at all. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.133.81.36 (talk) 10:38, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

Not everybody shares that opinon. PS- Who are the people of the United Kingdom of Great Britain? GoodDay (talk) 14:40, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

Poll on ArbCom resolution - Ireland article names

There is a poll taking place here on whether or not to extend the ArbCom binding resolution, which says there may be no page move discussions for Ireland, Republic of Ireland or Ireland (disambiguation), for a further two years. Scolaire (talk) 11:23, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Culture section needs expanding

Doesn't it? Reducing what's shared between the two countries to a couple of TV shows and sports seems rather silly, it would be like reducing the impact of the United States in the article on Canadian culture to a paragraph saying "Canadians like American TV and some follow the NFL". From my experiences in Ireland, Britain serves a similar role there to the US in Canada or Australia in New Zealand... as a center of business for both states as well as the hub for a largely (but not entirely) shared popular culture. Irish actors and musicians often move to London to further their careers, for example. Many companies operate throughout the Isles, with a lot of retail chains being either entirely or primarily located in just those countries. Some companies unique to Ireland are owned by UK equivalents, and a number of foreign companies operations in the UK and Ireland are consolidated (like Domino's Pizza UK & IRL). McDonalds, for example, makes a big to do about using "British and Irish farms", the logic behind which seems to be an assumption that British and Irish people don't see each other as inherently foreign. I feel like the article doesn't accurately reflect this, I'd love it if somebody could find a way to change that. Knowing this talk page, though, this might turn into a huge debate so I'll have an apology ready on standby in case I've disturbed the hornets nest -- MichiganCharms (talk) 07:36, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure there is anything encyclopaedic to add. Some companies merge their operations for both countries. Some don't. Some HQ their operations in Ireland, some in the UK. Some market their operations as covering Britain and Ireland. Some don't. Some musicians move to London to further their careers. Some don't. If there are references out there that support a shared culture then by all means use them but actually I suspect that there is very little encyclopaedic about it. Fmph (talk) 07:57, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Fmph. Most countries have some elements of shared culture with their neighbours, but there's no need to go into details in a geography-based article like this. Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:22, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

I'd argue that the degree to which popular culture between the countries is shared is worth mentioning. Like the fact that, say, the Christmas number-one singles in the UK and the Christmas number-one singles in Ireland have been the same song 28 out of 48 times (indeed, the entire concept of a Christmas number-one is unique to those two countries), or the Irish government negotiating a deal in an attempt to ensure that the BBC would be available free to air in Ireland. Ghmyrtle is perhaps correct that this article isn't the place to go into any sort of depth on this article, but the fact remains that nowhere else on this encyclopedia has any overt mentions of cultural similarities as nearly every article on Britain and Ireland focuses in large part on constitutional issues. -- MichiganCharms (talk) 13:31, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

I agree with what you say. Actually its more than a shared culture, it's a common culture in many respects. English/Scots/Welsh people by and large don't regard Irish people as foreign and the opposite is also true. The section you mention does need expanding. The people of the British Isles are pretty much of a single ethnicity. Irish ethnicity is no more different from English than is Scots or Welsh or Manx. Culture is within the realm of human geography so it sits well in this article. Van Speijk (talk) 14:15, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Let's not get into "ethnicity" - a contentious and irrelevant question. What concerns me is that we use good sources rather than relying on what we think to be true, or on our own research, and that we don't end up with a hotchpotch of trivia about things that happen to be done in similar ways in both countries. Ghmyrtle (talk) 14:19, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

A starting point would be to compare the articles on Culture of Ireland with Culture of the United Kingdom and identify common ground. Such commonality might then be included in this article. Van Speijk (talk) 14:24, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Don't think so - WP:CIRCULAR and WP:SYNTH. We need reliable independent sources that address shared cultural aspects across the islands. Ghmyrtle (talk) 14:35, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

You don't? Let's try the currently topical subject of Halloween. Mention of it can be found in both the aforementioned articles (referenced in each case), so it would be reasonable to include this example in the British Isles article. Now I know this has American roots but it's this type of commonality throughtout the islands that could and should be included. Why must we have WP policy cited as the first cut whenever suggestions are made? In fact, looking at the two articles there is much material that could be included - suitably refactored - in this article, even if it's not common between the two major islands in the group. Van Speijk (talk) 15:55, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Pedantic tangential comment: Halloween has its roots in the Celtic festival of Samhain. It has been celebrated in these isles for much longer than the US has existed ;) Wiki-Ed (talk) 20:33, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I omitted the word "modern" in my last post. I think it would be a good one for the culture section though. Van Speijk (talk) 20:36, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

If material is in both articles, there is no point in duplicating it here. We don't set out every possible permutation of common culture between countries in articles. Any new information here should be based on reliable independent sources, not on pulling together a ragbag of information from WP articles, or elsewhere. A more interesting article would be one that set out differences between British and Irish culture. Ghmyrtle (talk) 16:18, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

I take issue with your final comment there: (a) because it seems to be needlessly divisive - there are many cultural similarities and the article doesn't really address this in a balanced way; and (b) because to highlight the differences would suggest that the similarities are a given, which is not reflected by the current content. To reach a point where we set out the differences we would first have to set the stage to make it clear that culturally England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales are culturally homogeneous (assuming that is true) when compared to other parts of the world. Wiki-Ed (talk) 20:40, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

My final comment wasn't necessarily to be taken completely seriously - but there is a balance to be struck. There are differences between aspects of British and Irish culture, just as there are common features. This article should not give undue emphasis to one side of that balance - the common features. I restate the basic point - if this article is to say anything at all about "the culture of the isles" - which I don't think is particularly necessary, or helpful to anyone - it should do so based on reliable, independent sources that consider the issue in the round, rather than on some editors' random observations about trivia like Xmas no. 1 records. Ghmyrtle (talk) 21:27, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

In our increasingly small global village, the cultural similarities are certainly not limited to Ireland, England, Scotland and Wales. Their not even limited ton the English speaking world. You can go to just about any West European city and you will find the same branded clothing, the same music, the same TV and movies, the same (although translated) books, the same Riverdance. And if you want references about the homogeneity of 'modern-western' culture, I'm sure I can find some. But I still don't feel it is either notable or encyclopaedic. But I'm open to persuasion if someone wants to have a go at writing something. So long as it's well referenced.Fmph (talk) 21:02, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

That's a bit of a straw man, don't you think? You can watch Friends in country in the world, but that does not mean that any of those countries are as homogenous culturally with the US as Canada or even, say, Britain. The point I'm trying to make is that it's not just British and Irish people both liking The X-Factor... it's that British and Irish people are often watching the same exact channels with different advertising content. They're reading the same newspapers. They're shopping at the same stores (Tesco, to use a particularly ubiquitous example, has more stores in the UK and Ireland than the rest of the world combined). In many cases they're watching TV shows and films, listening to music or gossiping about celebrities that simply are non-entities anywhere else. And this is just being overly superficial... it doesn't touch on how the local cuisine of both countries are practically identical or the unique phenomena that is pub culture. The idea that we can sum up the common cultural bonds that come from 1000 years of shared history in two paragraphs, disproportionately dealing with sports, strikes me as downright silly. Sources can be easily found, it's just a matter of how far one wants to go with such a section... I'm already on record as saying it should be kept brief so as not to tilt the entire article toward human geography -- MichiganCharms (talk) 01:51, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘BTW, if anyone still believes that the Christmas No. 1 is a solely British or Irish phenomena they should have a look at this.Fmph (talk) 21:04, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

The second sentence on the page renders your point moot... every country with a music chart has a number 1 song on Christmas, but there are only two that make a big deal out of it. -- MichiganCharms (talk) 01:16, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Political or geographical?

What is this article supposed to be? People with British nationalist viewpoints are on one hand saying this article is about a "geographical" area and not a political or cultural area, yet on the other hand are advocating that this article include loads of information about political/cultural similarities (i.e. include things which support their jingoistic/nationalistic ideas of Ireland as "British"). They can't have their cake and eat it. Americas is a genuinely geographical article. In sharp contrast, this British Isles article has a clear political agenda. The latest discussion about "expanding" the cultural/political section of this supposedly "geographic" concept is more proof of this. 93.107.125.213 (talk) 00:03, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

There is nothing political in the article, nor was there any proposal to add any political information. And for the record, as the starter of the previous section, I'm hardly a "British Nationalist". I mean, I'm an American. In fact, my view on the section has changed in the past month and I'd now be fine with it being removed. But in the future, you should remember to WP:AGF -- MichiganCharms (talk) 21:39, 7 December 2011 (UTC)