Talk:Greek language

Pronunciation

Why is the IPA pronunciation of "ελληνική γλώσσα" given as [eliniˈci ˈɣlosa] when ελληνική is spelled with a kappa (κ), not with a chi (χ)? — 194.74.1.82 (talk) 10:35, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

The phonetic symbol [c] stands for a voiceless palatal plosive, the palatal allophone of /k/ before a front vowel. (The letter <χ>, on the other hand, denotes a fricative, either velar [x] or palatal [ç]). I am personally not a big friend of using [c] for the front variant of /k/, since it actually isn't normally a fully palatal [c] but only a slightly palatalized variant of [k] that could better be represented as [kʲ], as far as I know. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:37, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Peer review

Someone guess that the article is ready for a peer review? to prepare a nomination. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Crazymadlover (talk • contribs) 00:20, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

Changes by IP editor

The changes recently revert-warred over by an anonymous editor ([1], "[Some believe that the alphabet arose from the Phoenician script ,but the majority of historians support the most correct,that ancient Greek alphabet's characters may used some Phoenician letter sounds,but the Greek remains the first alphabet") are both heavily ungrammatical and not useful. Nobody in the literature doubts that the alphabet arose from Phoenician. This is universally accepted. The technical difference between the Greek and the Phoenician use of the alphabet, regarding the values of vowel letters, is only a slight change (albeit a structurally important one), and in no way contradicts the basic, undisputed fact that the one derived from the other. Hence, the "some believe" is wrong, the "but" is wrong, the "used some Phoenician letter[s]" is wrong (it in fact used all of them). Phoenician also isn't a "syllabary", as is in fact explicitly made clear in one of the sources cited by the anon (Diringer 1968: 166), and without doubt elsewhere too. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:45, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

I thought the problem was solved 2500 years ago, indeed even Herodotus claimed that Greek alphabet was of Phoenician origin ... Obviously it was and adaptation, because an indo-european language (with many diphthongs) needs to identify the vowels. An alternative it was to use a complicated and less efficient abugida. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.222.74.212 (talk) 21:01, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

cypriot dialect

Among the modern Greek dialelects(Cappadokian,Cheimarriotika,Cretan,Pontic,Tsakonian,Maniot, Yevanic),you do not include the Cypriot. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Αριστόδημος (talk • contribs) 23:03, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

official status of Greek outside Greece/Cyprus and EU institutions

In the table at the top right part of the webpage, under "official status", the article claims that Greek is a "recognized minority language" in the following countries: Albania, Australia, Italy, France, Russia, Germany, Armenia, Turkey, United States, Romania, Ukraine. However, the corresponding cited sources merely indicate the presence of Greek diaspora communities in these countries and do not prove official status as recognized minority language. I know for a fact that Greek does not have any official status in the United States, Australia, France, Turkey, or Germany. Russia, Albania, Italy, and Ukraine had Greek-speaking communities that existed until the 20th century, and perhaps even into present-day, but I'm not sure if Greek has official status as a minority language in these countries. I will do the research and edit this part of the article within the next few days. Let's please try to stay accurate. Skyduster (talk) 21:16, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Agreed, most of these are bogus. According to Griko language, Italy does recognize the "Minoranze linguistiche Grike dell'Etnia Griko-Calabrese e Salentina", though I couldn't find a good source for this. I don't think the US and Australia even have the idea of formally recognized minority languages. A few years ago, there was a French proposal to recognize various minority and regional languages [2], but this report does not include Greek, and in any case, it was never ratified. (cf. Languages of France) Though there are vanishingly few Greek-speakers left in Turkey today, the Treaty of Lausanne did actually give Greek a status as a protected minority language, and I believe that is still valid in theory. (cf. Languages of Turkey). Don't know about the others, though under USSR law, there were surprisingly many recognized languages (divide et impera), so it's not impossible that Russia and Ukraine have some sort of recognition. --Macrakis (talk) 23:13, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

I agree that Greek may have some sort of official -albeit symbolic- minority recognition in Russia, Ukraine, and possibly Kazakhstan and Georgia, as a carry-over from Soviet nationality policy. Although, just as in Turkey, I believe there's barely any Greek-speakers left in those countries today; most have either emigrated to Greece and Cyprus after the fall of the USSR, or completely assimilated into Russian/Ukrainian societies (and even those who emigrated to Greece/Cyprus barely spoke Greek, I believe). I'm pretty sure too that Italy has some sort of official -but mostly symbolic- recognition of Calabrian and Salentinan Greek, but I'm not sure. I'll have to research all these these. In France, I don't believe any language has any sort of official status (other than French), at least not on the mainland, and if they did officialize minority languages, it would only be native minority languages like Basque, Alsatian German, etc, not immigrant languages. I don't believe there's any part of France post-antiquity, where Greek is spoken natively and not by immigrants (and even the immigrant usage is low, as Greeks have completely assimilated and intermarried into French society). The United States has no official language at the federal level but almost all states have English as their official language, while Hawaiian, Cajun French, and Spanish are -at least nominally- co-official in Hawaii, Louisiana, and New Mexico respectively. Again, no recognition for immigrant languages whether Greek, German, or Vietnamese...even though some government documents (like voting ballots) may be printed in an immigrant language in an area with very high demand for that language, that doesn't amount to "official minority recognition", and especially not for Greek, and aging community whose American-born descendants speak primarily English. Romania had, I believe, a significant Greek refugee population from the 1946-1949 Greek civil war, but I'm not sure if they were ever given official minority-linguistic status, either by communist Romania or post-communist Romania, and most of the Greek refugees and their children moved back to Greece anyways in the 1970s/80s, I believe. You bring up an interesting point about Turkey. I'll try to do some research, and correct this article accordingly. Skyduster (talk) 09:57, 10 January 2012 (UTC)