Talk:Andover–Exeter rivalry

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Andover–Exeter rivalry is permanently protected from moving/renaming because it is a title that is supported by consensus, and because this title needs to be stabilized due to being altered several times over the years. Any title change should be proposed here first after reviewing the history shown below. If the proposal has been discussed and is supported by consensus, an administrator will make the requested move.

This article has previously been nominated to be moved.

Discussions:

RM, Exeter–Andover rivalry → Andover–Exeter rivalry, Moved, 15 March 2022, <discussion>

Image copyright problem with File:Phillips Exeter Academy Seal.png[edit]

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Exeter for sciences, Andover for Humanaties?[edit]

I heard this on a forum; is it true? Please provide a (non-forum) source.--24.62.109.225 (talk) 16:43, 2 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified[edit]

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Undoing redirect[edit]

I have undid the redirect to this page. There was no consensus or debate on this sudden removal, seeing how this page was blanked after a prod and a protest. There certainly exists non-routine coverage, and precedence from the English/Latin rivalry suggests that this topic should have an individual page. The topic is certainly notable, as the second oldest football rivalry in the USA between two certainly significant schools. One can make a pretty strong case, in the case of a nomination for deletion, for its existence. If you want to deleted this page, please allow it to exercise its due process rights so as to not haphazardly remove any rightfully extant articles. alphalfalfa^(talk) 06:06, 10 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 15 March 2022[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved to Andover–Exeter rivalry. Several issues were discussed in this RM, and given the lengthy history of page moves here I'd like to discuss them in a bit more detail than I might ordinarily. 1) There is consensus to reverse the order of the names to Andover–Exeter. Participants were broadly of the view that since no special justification for favoring one arrangement over another has been presented, we should default to using alphabetical order per WP:AND. Since this strong policy-based argument was embraced by a healthy majority of !voters, there is consensus to move. 2) There is consensus that "rivalry" should remain in lowercase. Again, this consensus is expressed both in terms of guideline-based arguments (in this case rooted in MOS:CAPS) and in terms of the clear numerical opposition to capitalization. 3) Editors generally agree with Paine that full move protection would be useful here given the slightly ridiculous number of times this article has been moved. I will put in a request at WP:RFPP momentarily. 4) Several editors question whether this rivalry is notable; feel free to start a WP:AFD discussion at any time. (closed by non-admin page mover) Extraordinary Writ (talk) 05:35, 25 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Exeter–Andover rivalry → Andover–Exeter Rivalry – Wikipedia naming convention 1: "Use commonly recognizable names." This is most commonly referred to Andover–Exeter, not Exeter–Andover. Also, this aligns with the score order list in the article (Andover score, then Exeter score). Also fixes capitalization. Dynosol (talk) 19:52, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This is a contested technical request (permalink). GeoffreyT2000 (talk) 13:59, 15 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. Not sure how big a deal reversing the names is; however, this would "unfix" the capitalization, which should be lower case "rivalry". There is nothing to suggest that the entire proposed title is a proper name or that "rivalry" should be "Rivalry" for any reason. Please see WP:TITLEFORMAT (policy) and MOS:CAPS (style guideline) for guidance. Additionally, this article's title has been altered so many times in its history, sometimes Andover has been placed first and sometimes Exeter. And there have been several incarnations, such as being separated by a hyphen, an endash, even a backslash, plus the entire school names were used on at least one occasion. I would suggest that first we check the initial title, which was "Exeter-Andover rivalry" with an incorrect hyphen separator. Since this article began with Exeter first, then we should keep that with the correct endash separator as it is now. Further suggest that this article be fully-move-protected, which I think will keep what happened in 2019, a copy-and-paste page move, from ever happening again. No need for any future histmerges. P.I. Ellsworth - ed. ^put'r there ~~09:52, 15 March 2022 (UTC)~~ 13:01, 17 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Lowercase "rivalry" per Paine Ellsworth. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 17:13, 16 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
No opinion on whether one is actually more common than the other, but I'd support the alphabetical order if no evidence is shown either way (WP:AND). Another comment: The page history is pretty confusing. In 2019 there was a technical request from Andover-Exeter rivalry to Exeter-Andover rivalry (Special:Permalink/885311411). (In my opinion the rationale in that request is not very convincing.) The move was performed. It was followed by a copy-and-paste move from Exeter-Andover rivalry to Exeter–Andover rivalry (Special:Diff/885743617, Special:Diff/885743600), which I hope someone can clean up. Adumbrativus (talk) 08:04, 17 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- To editor Adumbrativus: a histmerge has been performed and so this has been fixed. Thank you for the good catch! P.I. Ellsworth - ed. ^put'r there 13:01, 17 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - the page should be moved, but honestly I don't think this is a notable enough rivalry to merit its own page. It should be redirected to List of high school football rivalries more than 100 years old. — Amakuru (talk) 13:39, 17 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support Andover–Exeter rivalry per the guidance at WP:AND: It is generally best to list topics in alphabetical order. Colin M (talk) 20:00, 20 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support Andover–Exeter rivalry, support a move lock to enforce that, and at the same time agree with Amakuru that the issue isn't proper title but notability. The back and forth on this article title are pretty clearly just partisan schoolboy stuff. A move lock will stop that, but covering this almost certainly non-notable subject in a list will too. There is not a single reliable independent secondary source on this article. And for a US public school rivalry to be considered notable, we have generally required an independently published book on the subject to show notability. You could provide 100% compliance with V on this subject, but without an academically independent reliable secondary source to provide analysis of the subject, notability isn't shown. Significance or age alone do not confer notability. 174.212.211.248 (talk) 19:52, 22 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. Before any further page moves we should closely scrutinize the history of this article's renames. This article has enjoyed a total of six titles over the years. One move log even expresses an edit summary of Exeter-Andover is more accurate than Andover-Exeter. Firstly, the relation derives from the Harvard-Yale rivalry which is traditionally ordered that way, with Harvard first. Secondly, the material that shows the games list Exeter before Andover. So wherever this article's title lands this time, it really needs to be stabilized by page-move protection. If not, the title will just keep bouncing back and forth between E → A and A → E with hyphens, endashes, slashes, on and on. Lots of possibilities. P.I. Ellsworth - ed. ^put'r there 10:31, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support Andover–Exeter rivalry: Alphabetical ordering per WP:AND, unless proved that Exeter–Andover is significantly more popular than Andover–Exeter. And it's lowercase r for rivalry. I agree with Paine that whatever be the outcome, the article needs to be move protected. Also, I agree with Amakuru that this article has notability issues, and I've put {{Notability}} tag on the article, and would be okay if the future of the article is discussed separately. ---CX Zoom(^he/_him) (^{let's talk}|_contribs) 12:33, 24 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.