Talk:Injury in humans/Archive 1

Redirect to Trauma (medicine)

This article provides little to no information about the subject matter and is just another way to describe traumatic injury. I feel it would be best simply redirect it to trauma (medicine). Thoughts, questions, concerns? Peter.C • talk • contribs 16:29, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

• Merge per the definition of trauma on that article, injury is synonymous. Suspect most of this bullet list is already covered there, but if not then we should merge it. Lesion (talk) 17:54, 16 March 2014 (UTC)
• Merge. Trying to find a distinction but failing... they're synonyms. As long as we make it very clear that there's such a thing as "minor injury/trauma". JFW | T@lk 19:18, 16 March 2014 (UTC)
• Merge I expected that the concept of injury included legal injury, injury to reputation, social injury such as from discrimination, and all other kinds of non-trauma injuries. On Wikipedia right now, seemingly all articles on injury are named for physical trauma. It is best to redirect this article to trauma (medicine) for now, or if not that, a redirect straight to Sea urchin injury. Blue Rasberry (talk) 19:48, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
• No merge Trauma (medicine) means a significant injury not just any injury thus I do not think we should merge. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 08:41, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

This is semantics, but disagree with the above suggestion. The term trauma by itself has no defined "lower limit", and this is supported by popular medical dictionary definitions. Also, we have terms like minor trauma, major trauma, massive trauma etc to describe the degree of trauma. Even a simple injection causes trauma to the tissues. Lesion (talk) 11:35, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

While this article is more about "major trauma". Maybe we should change the name to that and than merge trauma with injury? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 09:17, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

• Comment Would it make more sense to merge it the other way, per WP:COMMONNAME? --NickPenguin_(contribs) 03:10, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
• Comment since this article is now this week's WP:TAFI, we should really try to resolve this proposal. Otherwise it would a real waste of an TAFI. --CyberXRef^☎ 04:19, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

Probably discussing and resolving this merge suggestion would be the best way to improve this article, even if the improvement is redirecting it to a more comprehensive article. --NickPenguin_(contribs) 15:30, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

• Comment But leaning against a merge. Examples of "injuries" that (to my non-medical eye) don't fall under the article definition of "trauma" - acquired brain injury (e.g. caused by a stroke), exercise-related injuries (i.e. those unrelated to falling over), injuries from radiation, occupational injuries caused by long-term working environments... Moswento ^talky 10:59, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
• 'Comment I nominated this article for TAFI, and at that time (and up until today_, I was unaware of the article Trauma (medicine). There *does* seem to be some topic cross-ver, but.. i dunno.. one seems to be more science/medicine oriented while the other seems to tackle the problem for a more real world perspective, similar to something like Limerence & Puppy love. But I am not leaning either way on this one. If the articles can be distinguished from each other - even for a different reason than the one i suggested, then so be it. If not, then thats cool too.--Coin945 (talk) 11:20, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

I do a lot of merges, and the question you have to ask yourself is "Are these two things identical?" or more generally "Are they two perspectives on the same thing?" --NickPenguin_(contribs) 15:30, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

Injury is a broader term. Trauma and major trauma are subsections of it. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 16:11, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

Well from an uninformed layperson's perspective, I suppose an injury refers to any bruise or cut or scratch or anything sue-worthy haha, whereas trauma sounds rather brutal and serious and even with some psychological aspects. Does that have any factual basis?--Coin945 (talk) 16:24, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

So do we all agree that "injury" would be the common name, and "trauma" would refer to a specific subset of injuries? And if that is the case, does it make sense to have all the content in the Trauma article here, or should it remain split out as a separate notable subject? --NickPenguin_(contribs) 01:06, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

We should not merge. I have moved the trauma article to Major trauma Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 09:34, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Reading the other article, that distinction feels right to me; injury is the broader overview article, major trauma is about life threatening injuries. --NickPenguin_(contribs) 13:17, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

I agree with that assessment but shouldn't we have renamed it "traumatic injury"? When I think about trauma I think of it as a subset of injury that's highly stressful/perhaps involves emotional shock. Googling around I found the following definition on the University of Florida Health website:

"Traumatic injury is a term which refers to physical injuries of sudden onset and severity which require immediate medical attention. The insult may cause systemic shock called “shock trauma”, and may require immediate resuscitation and interventions to save life and limb." [1].

JCL has the following definition: "What is trauma? In its most basic sense, trauma means injury to the body. In medicine, the term typically refers to the most severe injuries — those that threaten life and limb. Unlike most emergency room patients, trauma patients require highly specialized care, including surgery and blood transfusions." [2]

It might be worth pointing out the definition used in Category:Injuries: Injury is damage or harm caused to the structure or function of the body caused by an outside agent or force, which may be physical or chemical. A severe and perhaps life-threatening injury is called a physical trauma.

But that definition my be problematic on its own since it was moved from "physical trauma" back in '10 stating they are not the same thing. --CyberXRef^☎ 22:40, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

You mean rename the article on injury traumatic injury? The other is best at major trauma as that is the term used. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 23:07, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Oh no I was referring to Trauma, "major trauma" → "traumatic injury"; I was just looking at some popularity numbers 2M vs 600K. But if you say that's the term used than disregard that suggestion. --CyberXRef^☎ 03:27, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

The precise naming of that article is still up in the air. However, are we all in agreement that injury is a broader umbrella article that encompasses, but could not fully contain, the content contained at major trauma? Therefore they should be kept separate a distinct, although there should be a subsection in the injury article that summarized the other article. Pinging original nominator, past participations: @Peter.C, Lesion, Jfdwolff, and Bluerasberry: --NickPenguin_(contribs) 12:54, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Major trauma is a subarticle of injury as it is a type / subcategory of injury.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 13:36, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Unless there are any objections, I think we will close this as "no consensus to merge". --NickPenguin_(contribs) 00:02, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

• An article exists for major trauma. There is no minor trauma article, and trauma is a disambiguation page. There is uncertainty about the distinction between injury and trauma. I think that if there is an article for "major trauma" then there should also be an article for trauma, and that this should be it perhaps as Trauma (medicine). I do not like that Trauma (medicine) currently redirects to major trauma. Should there be separate articles for major trauma, trauma, and injury? Blue Rasberry (talk) 20:24, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

Can Minor trauma and Trauma (medicine) redirect here, and can the word "trauma" be put in the title here? If we did that then perhaps nothing would need to be moved. Blue Rasberry (talk) 20:26, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I see your point; having an article titled 'major trauma' seems to imply another article called minor trauma, which naturally would be this article. That does pose a difficulty for me, because the distinction we've made seems to be pretty arbitrary. Maybe we should follow the original merge proposal and create one comprehensive article. --NickPenguin_(contribs) 14:50, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

+1 Lesion 14:53, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

We have cited definitions of "trauma", "traumatic injury" and "injury".[3]. These all appear to be roughly the same by my reading. Injury seems like a good title to cover this subject. Trauma (medicine), traumatic injury and maybe even Minor trauma should redirect here. There are citations in the lead over at Major trauma that indicate that this is a specific type of injury. The body of Major trauma does seem to cover some non-major types of trauma. That material should be moved here. ~KvnG 18:44, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

Draft merge

I have merged all the content from major trauma here (without redirecting that article), not necessarily as a permanent job, but mostly to see how it reads. There are 128 uses of the word injury, and 146 uses of the words "trauma" or "traumatic". That includes a bunch of articles that use the word "trauma" in them, as well as the references, so the split is about even.

Now, the question is, does all of this content make sense under this heading? I find that there is quite a bit of weight about very serious injuries or traumas. This could be counter balanced by improving the areas about lesser injuries, perhaps by merging a bunch of content from the articles in the "list of injuries" section. I am open to suggestions. --NickPenguin_(contribs) 14:46, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

Seeing it all together like this, I conclude that there is no real benefit to having a separate Major trauma article. It will be difficult to decide where one begins and the other ends and the combined article is not overly long and not likely to become long since there are so many articles we can link to that cover the details of specific injuries and classes of injury. ~KvnG 13:21, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

I have finalized the merge and redirected major trauma here. If you think this is in error, please ping the discussion participants and restart discussions on this matter. --NickPenguin_(contribs) 13:40, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Okay was closed as no merge above and now merging? The definition is the second line of the major trauma article "For research purposes the definition is often based on an injury severity score(ISS) of greater than 15" Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 05:28, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

It was just an experiment merge, to see how it looked. There appears to be no consensus, after reviewing the merged content, so we can let it rest at no merge. --NickPenguin_(contribs) 14:30, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

The words are too different

I disagree about merging because both words are just too different. The blending of "injury" and "trauma" is confusing, especially for someone wanting to differentiate the terms. "Injury" refers to a specific instance, something that the victim receives from an external source. "Trauma," however, is more than an instance, it suggests that the injury sustained hasn't fully healed, or that the victim has a condition resulting from the injury. If the article were to remain merged, I think there should be some text differentiating the terms. Their relationship isn't hierarchical, it's related to time. KAH 11:01, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Are there sources to support that interpretation? Lesion 10:46, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

In prior discussion (see above) I think we established through references that "injury" and "trauma" are synonyms. We looked and did not find good evidence for a differentiation here. It is also my experience that the terms are used differently in daily speech, but in a medical sense, they are apparently synonyms ~KvnG 13:27, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

The OED most strongly verifies this. If you look at the etymologies, they clearly indicate the differences. Unfortunately, it's not a source open to everyone, and I don't know who can't access it. KAH 11:01, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Care to paste what you are referring to here? Lesion 10:23, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Sorry for being vague. I pasted everything you see below from the OED, except for the additional definitions provided by the online etymology dict., as noted in brackets. KAH 10:48, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

injury, n. Etymology: < Latin injūria wrong, hurt, detriment, noun use of feminine of injūrius unjust, wrongful, < in(INprefix) + jūs, jūrright. Compare Anglo-Norman in, enjurie (Ph. de Thaun). 1. Wrongful action or treatment; violation or infringement of another's rights; suffering or mischief wilfully and unjustly inflicted. With an and pl., A wrongful act; a wrong inflicted or suffered. 2. Intentionally hurtful or offensive speech or words; reviling, insult, calumny; a taunt, an affront. Obs. [Compare French injure = parole offensante, outrageuse.] 3. a. Hurt or loss caused to or sustained by a person or thing; harm, detriment, damage. With an and pl. An instance of this. b. concr. A bodily wound or sore. Obs. rare.

From online etymology dictionary [4] injury (n.) Look up injury at Dictionary.com late 14c., "harm, damage, loss; a specific injury," from Anglo-French injurie "wrongful action," from Latin injuria "wrong, hurt, injustice, insult," noun use of fem. of injurius "wrongful, unjust," from in- "not, opposite of" (see in- (1)) + ius (genitive iuris) "right, law" (see jurist).

trauma, n. Etymology: < Greek τραῦμα wound. 1. Pathol. A wound, or external bodily injury in general; also the condition caused by this; traumatism. 2. a. Psychoanal. and Psychiatry. A psychic injury, esp. one caused by emotional shock the memory of which is repressed and remains unhealed; an internal injury, esp. to the brain, which may result in a behavioural disorder of organic origin. Also, the state or condition so caused. b. In general and fig. use.

From online etymology dictionary [5] traumatize (v.) Look up traumatize at Dictionary.com 1893, in reference to physical wounds; 1949 in the psychological sense, from Greek traumat-, stem of trauma (see trauma). trauma (n.) Look up trauma at Dictionary.com 1690s, "physical wound," medical Latin, from Greek trauma "a wound, a hurt; a defeat," from PIE *trau-, extended form of root *tere- "to rub, turn," with derivatives referring to twisting, piercing, etc. (see throw (v.)). Sense of "psychic wound, unpleasant experience which causes abnormal stress" is from 1894. traumatic (adj.) Look up traumatic at Dictionary.com 1650s, from French traumatique and directly from Late Latin traumaticus, from Greek traumatikos "pertaining to a wound," from trauma (genitive traumatos; see trauma). Psychological sense is from 1889. Related: Traumatically. KAH 11:01, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Seems that trauma is defined in terms of injury... although here unjury is given a wider scope, referring to defamatory language. Not convinced that this sense is in common use today: "Injurious" speech" Lesion 10:57, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Looking at the usage of both words with the assistance of "Corpus of Contemporary American English," [6] I find that the recent usage of both words can be differentiated by the more general use of "trauma," especially in the context of psychology. KAH 11:26, 8 April 2014 (UTC) KAH 11:31, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Major trauma versus trauma / injury

The first is a subcategory of the latter. Merging both together does not make sense. Often trauma is used to mean just "major trauma". Thus we have trauma surgeons. They do not deal with simple lacs or most isolated injuries but only major trauma. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 05:32, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

I think we should look at what Doc James is saying. He is an ER doctor, after all. KAH 10:55, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

We need to look beyond the articles titles in deciding how to organize this material. The names of some of the articles have been changed at least once. The content of Major trauma contains coverage of some not-so-major topics. If we were starting from scratch, would we want to divide the subject into separate articles for major and minor? If so where does it make sense to draw the line? ~KvnG 14:39, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

I realise I'm entering this conversation late (apologies for the attempted redirect before I knew this debate was going on!), but I'd like to add my views to those of Doc James. Trauma as a medical specialty is very different to an injury; injury describes the physical insult to a patient, however trauma (medicine) is the whole system devoted to the care major trauma patients (in the UK these being identified by a simple algorithm (page 5)and so taken preferentially to a MTC for treatment - an answer to the questions above about distinction). To me, the current redirect to injury means we lose the chance to explore the evolution, development and practice of this field in a WP article, which I think is a shame. I know the article trauma surgery exists, but this is about the medical training specialty and not the whole academic field, and I would redirect what is currently in traumatology to this new page.

On a related note, currently physical trauma redirects to major trauma - I would personally instead redirect that to injury. Similarly, trauma (disambiguation) redirects to trauma - should it not be the other way around as it is a DAB page, listing articles on films/music/games etc?

Thanks all - Mschamberlain (talk) 21:50, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

Maybe trauma (medicine) should redirect to major trauma Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 17:20, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

I have made this redirect (without being aware of this discussion) but I actually think it represents the consensus here. BakerStMD 15:40, 15 October 2015 (UTC)