Talk:List of Hammond organ players

Cleaning up

I am cleaning up this article and trying to source bits of it. To that end, please do not add any more entries without reference to a reliable source - they may be reverted. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 07:47, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• The cleanup has now been done. I've cited lots of entries, but there are a number still without cites that I've removed. Frankly, Paul McCartney is simply not notable specifically as a Hammond player, otherwise more book sources would talk about it. As stated above, please do not add anything else without a source that explains why they are notable for using the Hammond organ, as I will revert it if I spot it and direct you to the talk page. If you think I am trying to take over the article, I'm afraid that's just not the case. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 14:51, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for cleaning the article up. People such as McCartney who played a Hammond just a few times should not be listed. Binksternet (talk) 16:32, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Hey there - great page! Just a note - under section 'C' Rob Collins of The Charlatans lived from 1963-1996 and played a Hammond C-3 from 1989 to 1996 in the band. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.226.255.205 (talk) 00:15, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

Rick DePiro

I removed DePiro from the list yesterday on the grounds of not being reliably sourced and unable to find a good source that states a strong association with the Hammond, but was reverted by A&RBoss (talk · contribs). The problem with the content is:

• "Has achieved acclaim for use of "kicking" bass (Kruger bass)" - achieved acclaim from whom? What is a Kruger bass?
• " listed as one of most well known Jazz Organists all time" - in whose opinion?
• "Known for Baseball Sarcasm when playing organ for Cleveland Indians on Hammond." - what is "Baseball Sarcasm" and would a reader outside of the US know immediately what the "Cleveland Indians" were?
• ask.com is not a reliable source
• dictionary.sensagent.com is a fork / mirror of Wikipedia and Wikipedia is not a reliable source - ever, as pages can (broadly speaking) be changed or modified by absolutely anyone without authority.

I can't in good conscience keep this edit as it violates Wikipedia's key policies of neutral point of view and verifiability, so I have no choice but to revert it. Sorry. If you want to re-add it, you will need to supply a good source, such as a page in Jazz Times or some other widely distributed music magazine. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 07:50, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

Hi Ritchie

I don't agree at all with your decision BUT what I do agree with is that you might not consider the sources "reliable" however, IF you are a Hammond Organ expert, (I was a Vice president for Hammond Organ Company in the 1980's and worked with DePiro personally when he was a youngster, you would know how "truly Hammond" he is and was. Hammond was no longer really "Hammond" after we sold to Suzuki yet some artists are cited who ONLY played Suzuki Hammonds and should you look at "Sporting Organs" you would see that DePiro was a well known Stadium Organist and notable just on that front and I supplied the Concorde he played. Kruger Bass (fyi) was the aftermarket bass pedal system used on A-100's and B-3's for artists that actually kicked bass, which as you probably know, many did not. EVERYONE that played Hammond professionally in the 70's and 80's knows this or at least should! It cost $1180.00 to install and was why many did not have it added to their Organs. When DePiro played Organ on Michael McDonalds "No Lookin Back Album in 85, he played a B-3. I know because I ok'd the organ for the Album from our warehouse. Any baseball fan would know who the Cleveland Indians are because they have been a Major League team for around 100 years as have the New York Yankees and Boston Red Sox etc. There have been only 11 Major League organists that have played Hammond Organ in the History of the Major Leagues, and DePiro was one of them. How do we pay justice to this musician when many of the other names on this list don't even come close to DePiro and his allegiance to Hammond? Nick Orlando hired DePiro to the Technics Organist Artist staff after Jimmy Smith recommended DePiro personally for the job! I know this because I had Jimmy Smith under contract with Hammond at the time and he called me personally to boast DePiro's abilities. So, let's PLEASE find a way to fix this yes? Thank you for your consideration. By the way, are you a B-3 player ? I would love to know your recordings. I always love listening to new recordings on the greatest organ ever made. ... Oh, and finally, DePiro premiered the Roland Organ (AT350) at NAMM and in Las Vegas for the National Organist finals as a Celebrity guest Artist (the Organ you mention as "clonewheels) just as Joey DeFrancesco did for Roland 7 years prior on the XK88 ALSO by personal request of Roland founder Mr. K (Kakehashi- Founder) because Mr. K wanted an authentic B-3 player to premier his new Organ product.

A&RBoss (talk) 08:15, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

One of my Hammonds

Hi. The first thing to stress is this isn't a permanent removal, as Wikipedia is always a work in progress - as long as discussions are taking place, then one way or another things will sort themselves out and we'll get Rick DePiro listed here. And I think there's no question that he is notable enough to have his own article.

The basic problem is I think this list should be geared very much towards someone who's not an expert or an enthusiast, but maybe somebody whose heard of the Hammond and wants some good examples. It needs to cover all significant genres, from Henry Ford and George Gershwin using the A, though to the Beastie Boys' Money Mark using it in hip-hop. It also needs to cover all cultures - I seem to recall there was next to no representation from Jamaican musicians at one point, though there should have been.

The reason I was suspicious about DePiro's significant association with the Hammond was this recent Jazz Times article, where he was described as "is a well known pianist and jazz organist" ... "DePiro joined him on stage and played the Organ (although it didn't look like a traditional Jazz organ / B-3, it sure sounded like one)" (presumably this was the Roland AT350) and " I also think Rick DePiro should be playing more Jazz Organ publicly." To me, that suggested he wanted to downplay his association with Hammond and be treated more as a general singer / songwriter / keyboard player.

As far as other sources go, your best choice is probably a book, magazine or journal. If what you say about DePiro's endorsement of actual tonewheel Hammonds is correct, somebody must have written about it. Sources don't need to be online - and indeed, for numerous featured articles (generally considered our best work on Wikipedia), many sources are in print form. You will need the name of the piece, the title of the book, magazine or newspaper, the page it's on, and ideally the ISBN. Personally I find Scott Faragher's The Hammond Organ to be my favourite. He paints a more positive light on Suzuki models, specifically noting that Manji Suzuki is a fan of the instrument and hired several former Hammond staff who insisted the New B-3 was made in the US. The Allmusic Guide for Jazz can be a good one to use as a basic summary for a list article like this. I'll have a rumage around and see what else I can come up with.

As for me, well I've had several "real" Hammonds but I ran out of friends to help me move them, so these days my main instrument is a Nord Stage - aside from the lack of real drawbars it does the job well. I found This clip of me online. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 08:53, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

Hi Ritchie! Hey, first, great job on "Hound Dog" ! Enjoyed the clip! Anyway, I respect your attitude and your willingness to keep this going until we get DePiro on this page, which I think he deserves. I do also know that he played B-3 on Michael McDonalds multi= platinum album No Lookin Back, 1987(?), played B-3 with Joe Williams at the Monterey Jazz Festival, played it with Johnny Cash when he toured with him and on his own album Mellow haze from way back when I first met him (Mark Records.

Also, we (when with Hammond) approved an article in the Cleveland Plain Dealer (the major news paper for that city), Weekend magazine section called "Thunder At The Ballpark" which covered 4 or 5 pages in the Sunday paper all about DePiro and the organ playing at the ballpark with a big color picture of him at the organ.) I just have no idea what the catalog number of that is/was or how to find it) Anyway, I'm open to looking further and trying to get this done for him (not that he'll even necessarily know about it, or care) but accuracy and integrity are what Wikipedia is about and I'm trying to do my small part! — Preceding unsigned comment added by A&RBoss (talk • contribs) 09:08, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

I have had a look around, but there seems to be very little online that deals with his recording or touring equipment. This Allmusic source just credits him as "composer, primary artist". There is a local Daytona news piece here which summarises his career as of 1992, but says he endorses Technics keyboards. Combined that with the general feeling from online sources that he is (at least today) a Roland man, I'm finding it extremely difficult to prove he has any strong association specifically with the Hammond that the world at large regards as important. Let me pull in @Binksternet:, whose worked on the Hammond articles before, to see if he's got any ideas. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 11:16, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, folks, I have never heard of Rick De Piro. If he was associated with Hammond in the past, shown by WP:Reliable sources, then he should be in this list. If not, then not. Binksternet (talk) 14:50, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

I understand your points and thank you for your input Ritchie. DePiro is a magnificent musician with a great past, and as a former Hammond executive, I have never actually heard of Binksternet, but know DePiro personally and his association is solid but I do agree that this needs to be better associated and proven and I will do more research to prove that when I get a chance. And I also admit that I might possibly recognize Binksternet if I knew his real name. However, someone who worked with dozens of Celebs (while playing organ, specifically Hammond in many cases) and has pictures playing Hammond for 3 US Presidents, articles and National TV spots showing it and recording credits on Multi-platinum albums playing Hammond should garner placement in this this article but again it probably meanss little in the "big picture" anyway, and Mr. DePiro probably wouldn't care one way or another, right?

I was just trying to give legitimate placement to a legitimate and well established player, a great one at that. Should either of you ever get the chance to see him, you'll likely agree that myself , Jimmy Smith, Oscar Peterson and three American Presidents aren't wrong and along with lots of fans of this artist agree how good he truly is. His Hammond playing is amazing and I can testify that you'll likely agree when given the chance. Have great day and wonderful weekend. Hope to talk "again" soon while also hopefully supplying the necessary information for this artist for inclusion. Thank you.

A&RBoss (talk) 08:45, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

A nice collection

I would not suggest for a moment that anyone adds any links to that pernicious YouTube site, but this collection may be of interest: [1], if only as an informal indication of who is regarded as notable, in the world of rock at least. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:58, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Images

Could an album cover, showing the musician, be uploaded and used here under fair use rationale? Martinevans123 (talk) 17:41, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Probably not, unless the (probably unlikely) event that the cover had a free license. The relevant criteria is WP:NFCC#8, which says "Non-free content is used only if its presence would significantly increase readers' understanding of the article topic, and its omission would be detrimental to that understanding." The article topic is a list of people who play the Hammond organ, so a reader would be able to assume what a person's entry here is for. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 08:37, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

Fair enough. (Although part of my "understanding" of a person is knowing what they look like!) Martinevans123 (talk) 09:03, 1 August 2014 (UTC) p.s. re "unsourced entries" - those three play, or have played, a Hammond on a regular basis. Did you want me to bother to looks for sources? Or maybe you already have and failed to find any? Thanks.

Well in all three cases, I felt they were "keyboardists" who occasionally played Hammond organ but were not specifically known for that instrument. In the same manner, John Lennon and Paul McCartney are not on the list, even though there is documented evidence they played one once. A reliable source that directly says the Hammond was important to them will sort that out, but I'm not especially convinced that one will exist. A further problem is the dates of birth were unsourced - the entry for Kevin Savigar stated he was born in 1955 but the article said he was born on 9 November 1956 - but without a source. For a featured list candidate, we have to get these things right. His entry on Allmusic has a lot "keyboards ... keyboards ... keyboards". He doesn't strike me as a particularly prominent exponent of the Hammond. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 09:35, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

No worries. It's a bit of an indistinct scale, isn't it. Do all entries need a source directly after the name, regardless of article content? Martinevans123 (talk)

Yes, it's a tricky balance, as my opinion of what's "significant use of the Hammond" may not match yours or anyone else's. All entries need to be verifiable, especially dates of birth (how many celebrities lie about their age?), but exactly what you cite where is a matter of taste. Some entries just have a single reference at the end of the line which covers their DOB, instruments played and anything else that gives them strong ties to playing the instrument. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 10:41, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

Jean Jack kravertz Organ player with Frumpy is missing Listen to how the gipsy was born. A master piece of Hammond organ of the seventies — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.195.214.14 (talk) 13:04, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

Get a reliable source and add it in. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 16:00, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

Another trim

I've trimmed out a few more unsourced or poorly sourced entires. Christopher North (Ambrosia)'s AllMusic page seems to mainly have a credit of "keyboards", which isn't really enough in my view. Sorry. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 16:53, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

Henry Ford

An online source for Ford's involvement: here, says this:

"Ford summoned Hammond to Dearborn to find out if he could help get the fledgling organ company up to speed. Hammond declined Ford’s generous offer of material participation, but the experience cemented the fact that Hammond knew he had a winner. It is a common misperception that Henry Ford got the first Hammond Organ. Mr Ford placed the first Order, but he didn’t get the first organ. That privilege didn’t go to the composer George Gershwin, either, as widely reported

"The reality is actually much tamer. After Laurens got the company up and running, Hammond’s Serial Number One went to a dealer in Kansas City, where it was used for years as a traveling demonstrator. Upon its retirement, it went to the Smithsonian in Washington, where it now resides. Henry Ford eventually DID get his six Organs, and one of those six is the one that is displayed in his museum in Dearborn, Michigan."

So a figure in the early history of the company, certainly, but does that existing source (Vail, 2002) say that Ford actually did play it, ever? Ford is really not well known for his Hammond organ playing. The word "organ" doesn't appear in his article, let alone "Hammond". So I think maybe he should be removed from this list. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:39, 4 September 2016 (UTC)

The source (Mark Vail's Beauty in the B) is now on Google Books here and says "other early customers included George Gershwin and auto magnate Henry Ford". I suspect Ford got it because he wanted to see how it was engineered more than anything else. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 13:16, 5 September 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for that link. One wonders why he ordered six - presumably not to play them all at once. So should we remove Henry from this list? Martinevans123 (talk) 13:44, 5 September 2016 (UTC)

Ray Manzarek of The Doors

He's better known for playing the Vox Continental and Gibson G-101, but Ray Manzarek of The Doors is credited with the C-3 in Morrison Hotel#Personnel and L.A. Woman#Personnel. Why isn't he listed here?--71.200.109.79 (talk) 14:07, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

Nobody's ever bothered to add the entry with a reliable source. Fortunately, L.A. Woman is a good article so we can use a source from that. The post-Morrison performance at Beat Club clearly shows Manzarek playing a C-3, but I can't really cite a pirated video. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 14:16, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

Vic Cooper

It seems that Vic Cooper of Johnny Kidd & the Pirates is not notable in his own right. But Robin E. Hill (2012), in his biography of drummer John Kerrison, describes the Hammond C3 as being "part of the The Pirate's music style": [2] Martinevans123 (talk) 15:03, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

That's a self-published source, so we can't use it anyway. The book probably means a split L-100 or M-100 with internal speakers removed, which fits the description there much better than a C-3. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 15:21, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

Oh, I see. Well John Kerrison is also a dreadlink, so it's all starting to look a bit shakey... I'll get me coat. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:48, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

Grace Potter

There have been one or more new entries of Grace Potter without a reliable source. I've seen Potter play the B-3 many times (it appears to be one of her main instruments) and I don't know if this is a reliable source, but http://www.keyboardmag.com/artists/1236/grace-potter-and-the-deadly-hammond/28296 does mention her use of this instrument and says that she puts it "front and center onstage".--Kevjgav (talk) 20:04, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

I found another source http://mmusicmag.com/m/2012/06/grace-potter/ that mentions Potter's use of the B-3. However, I still don't know how reliable it is. I'm well aware that what may seem like a reliable source in the conventional sense, isn't necessarily reliable by Wikipedia standards.--Kevjgav (talk) 21:48, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

I think maybe you should first direct your efforts to the Grace Potter article, which has one instance of "organ" (and then only in the infobox) and no mentions at all of "Hammond organ"? Martinevans123 (talk) 22:06, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

You're right about that it says in the infobox that Potter's instruments are "vocals, guitar, piano and organ" (just generic terms and no mentioning of the brands of instruments) but then in the Grace Potter and the Nocturnals article, it says that Potter plays Hammond B3, Fender Rhodes, Wurlitzer electric piano, and mentions the Gibson Flying V (there's an inline citation at the end of the introductory of the band members and their instruments, but the link doesn't seem to be working, so it looks to be unsourced or poorly sourced content) as one of the guitars she uses. But yes, I see where you're coming from. Furthermore, this list seems to only include the most notable users of the Hammond, and as mentioned in previous discussions by other editors, we can't just list every musician who has ever played a Hammond. That's why John Lennon and Paul McCartney aren't listed here. Even though their use of the RT-3 (owned by Abbey Road Studios) is well documented, they only played it in a few songs. Looking at another "List of people" article, I was about to add Potter to the List of keyboardists page (Lennon and McCartney are both listed there) but it looks like someone else already did that. And so, on second thought, I don't think that Potter should be listed here because she's not really notable for playing the Hammond. As far as I'm concerned, about half the musicians at List of keyboardists (again, just a generic term not stipulating the brands of instruments) have probably played a Hammond at least once. That said, I'm not listing Potter (or any new entries) on this list.--Kevjgav (talk) 23:04, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

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Rami Jaffee

He's played with the Wallflowers and the Foo Fighters and also as a session musician. In his article, the B-3 is at the top of the "notable instruments" list in the infobox, and (not to change the subject) he's also credited with other electric and electronic organs such as the Farfisa, Vox Continental and Optigan on his selected discography. But apparently, he's best known for the playing the B-3, so why isn't he listed here?--71.200.110.156 (talk) 19:27, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

Hammond does indeed appear in 18 instances in his article. So he looks like a very strong candidate. Unfortunately none of those instances seems to be supported by any source(s). I think the claim that he is "best known for the playing the B-3" would also require a source, and would be expected to appear in that article before it appears in this one. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:44, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

Dave "Baby" Cortez

In his article, it says that his instrumental, The Happy Organ was the first hit to feature the electric organ as a lead instrument. Furthermore, in the Happy Organ article, it says that the song's melody was played on a B-3. Given that he ostensibly made a milestone with "The Happy Organ" by popularizing the organ outside the jazz field, why isn't he listed here? I also noticed that there's no mention of "Hammond" in his article, but the song's article mentions B-3 as the instrument he used to record that instrumental. Maybe it's because there are no sources to support that claim?--73.172.36.126 (talk) 23:12, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

Yes, that's very probably why. We'd need sources here also. But his own article would be the best place to start. Martinevans123 (talk) 23:16, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

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Target bio articles

Should these all contain some sourced mention(s) of the Hammond organ? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:58, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

@Martinevans123: I just noticed this article has deteriorated into an unsourced pile of sludge, and have cleaned it up - I'll stick it back on my watchlist, I think. I have added sources where it's pretty obvious the article has got coverage about using the Hammond specifically, for the rest - well the edit notice says "if you add an unsourced entry, it can be removed" so nobody can say they weren't warned. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 12:03, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

"Pile of sludge" sounds to me like a slight contradiction in terms, but I know what you mean. I never knew that particular genre was known for its use of the Hammond!! Martinevans123 (talk) 12:09, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

Unlike "saucy" acid jazz, Sludge rock is frequently unsauced. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 12:32, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

Charles Hodges of the Hi Rhythm Section

His article article does indeed say "Hammond" (that he's noted for "his high tone on the Hammond B3 organ"), and I see that this claim is sourced. He looks like a very strong candidate. Why isn't he listed here? Maybe the given source isn't a reliable source?--2601:153:901:60C0:4030:5257:78E8:CB2E (talk) 02:39, 2 December 2019 (UTC)

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Other language wikis

Is this list restricted only to those players notable on en.wiki, or is it also open to players who are notable on other language wikis? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:32, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

The comment in the main article says it should be restricted to those with an article here. However WP:LISTCRITERIA suggests using a bit of common sense; if somebody has an article on another Wikipedia, odds are they're probably notable enough to have one here. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 17:48, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

How's your Swedish? Martinevans123 (talk) 17:57, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

What about Walter Wanderley?

--2003:F3:5703:3D00:F42C:5269:D928:C51E (talk) 09:48, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Yes, Walter Wanderley looks like a very strong candidate. Although current source here mentions only B3. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:04, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Twinkie Clark

Her article says: "Known as the "Queen of the B3 Hammond Organ", she is a member of the Hammond organ Hall of Fame Class of 2014." So I guess she should be added! Martinevans123 (talk) 13:07, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

References

Bill Heid.

Bill Heid belongs on this list. If you have not heard him in the Beltway donot miss him. Detroit also his bachelor home. 2600:1700:B2A0:7A40:10CC:BB49:A79D:8E31 (talk) 23:42, 29 July 2022 (UTC)