Talk:List of rivers of Yorkshire

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I would appreciate thoughts on improvements to the page and on how I have decided on the calculating the lengths of rivers that are not wholly within the county boundary. I have based this on the format used by a former featured list, so hopefully this will not need too much tweaking. Thanks in advance.Rimmer1993 (talk) 17:27, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

Need to add a |name= parameter to the {{coord}} template calls so that they show up with an appropriate description, e.g. name=Mouth of River Doe. It may also be worth adding in those for which we do not yet have articles such as River Foulness. Keith D (talk) 19:35, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

Qualification

Some rivers are called things other than river. E.g. Cod Beck in Thirsk. I would like to make the qualification either it is called river X, regardless of size or that on the 1:50000 maps, it is shown as light blue between 2 dark lines, like most rivers are shown. Are there any objections. Op47 (talk) 22:00, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

Not really sure what it is that you are proposing, the article states All officially designated Rivers are listed below, which probably means all watercourses that are called a river. Cod Beck, North Yorkshire in this context would be considered a stream, so is not included. Are you saying that it should be expanded to be a list of rivers and streams? The lead is confusing though, in that it says there are 25 rivers over 20kms, which makes you think only those 25 are included...Jokulhlaup (talk) 11:33, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

Firstly, no I am not as such saying the article should be expanded to be a list of rivers and streams. If that were so then I suspect the article would have about 1000 entries, which is too many. What I am say is that Cod Beck is a river that has been improperly omitted from the list. This makes me suspect there are others like it. I would like to make my case as to why and the explain how I propose to fix the matter.

1) According to the article river, there is no defined size limit between a river and a beck (say), so there has to be an arbitrary distinction.

2) The statement All officially designated Rivers are listed below implies that there is an officially appointed authority that determines the set of official rivers and there is a list. If so, then the poulation of this list is a "slam dunk". However, if that's the case then there needs to be a reference as to who the authority is and their list. There are several rivers named "River X" that have been omitted and without the reference, we cannot determine if they have been omitted in error or because they are not official rivers. On the other hand, the inclusion of the Gypsey Race is a surprise.

3) If the criteria is that the river is called "river x" the it needs to be stated somewhere so that editor know what is in and what is out. If that is the meaning of all official rivers then the statement is untrue. At present there is at least 1 (River Burn) that is missing. I will add it when I get a chance.

4) Anomalies that suggest a river need not be called "River X" to be considered a river for our purpose. The river Spen is known locally as Spen Beck and is so small, it is not even named on my map. It shown on the 1:50000 map as a single blue line for much of its length. Cod Beck, North Yorkshire on the other hand is called a river in its article. It is shown on the 1:50000 map as light blue in dark blue casing. i.e. it is a river that for some odd reason been called X Beck.

5) There is a river Loxley, the next vally up contains a similar sized er. candidate river which is called Ewden Beck. As I said above the distinction is arbitrary. We however need an objective criteria.

As I suggested above, a clear cut and easy to apply criteria would be to say if a candidate river is shown on the OS 1:50000 in light blue with dark Blue case for at least part of its length, then it is a river and is eligable to be included in this article. I would like to remove the bit about official rivers because unless we can identify the authority and list then it is rather meaningless. Does that clear things up? Op47 (talk) 22:42, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

You have made a lot of good points there, I have asked Rimmer1993 if he could contribute as he created the original article...Jokulhlaup (talk) 17:40, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

Jokulhlaup, thanks for inviting me to comment on this discussion. If i remember correctly, the list started from the templates i found at the bottom of other Yorkshire river articles. As has been pointed out, the definition of what is a river is debatable and differs widely, so Op47 your point number 1 is accepted. I have to say that i probably just started with those that had "river" in the name. Therefore, Cod Beck, along with other candidates, were just omitted, no more no less. As for why i put the "officially designated" in the lead paragraph. Hands up, i can't remember, it may have been picked up out of one of the reference articles i was using at the time. I am more than happy that the phrase be removed in its entirety. After all, this is open to be edited by anyone, and i learnt long ago not to get possessive about anything i created on here.

To address Jokulhlaup's point on the opening sentence; I agree that it does not read right. May i suggest that it start with "Of the rivers listed below...."?

The remaining points raised by Op47 seem to be variations on a similar theme about the criteria and citing some of the anomolous examples and it is a quite reasonable argument. So to get to the crucial point of what, if any, should be the defining criteria for inclusion, may i point to the Environment Agency website[1], where they declare that they are the arbiters of what is to be designated a "Main River". It does include those waterways that do not contain the word "River" in them. Before you get your hopes up for an easy to use list; sorry, it is a map which is subject to change, but see what you make of it. As I have said previously, i have no real preference, but would support the view Op47 puts forward that it would be counter productive to list all the really small streams etc. For that matter it could be asking for trouble if was suggested that it was limited to those waterways that had a Wikipedia article, as we could find a lot stub articles being generated that would never develop. Finally you may want to get the view of Keith D, who looks after the Yorkshire Project.Rimmer1993 (talk) 18:02, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for the honest reply, if I understand it then this 'should' be a list of main rivers that are named as rivers as well, which seems sensible. I would be interested in Keith D's view as well...Jokulhlaup (talk) 15:31, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

So your summation is correct for what we have now. What i think Op47 argues is that some waterways that are not named as "river" should be included too. I agree, but i suggested the criteria could be based upon the Main River map at the Environment Agency. Does that help?Rimmer1993 (talk) 16:06, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

The only problem with using main rivers is that you will get other watercourses that are not named as rivers. this list from Derbyshire (I couldn't find anything for Yorkshire) includes a lot of brooks, that people would not think of as rivers. For Yorkshire this would include the Cod Beck, North Yorkshire for example...Jokulhlaup (talk) 15:20, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

I agree. In fact I don't think main river is a suitable qualification. As an example, the River Cover is not a main river and yet the unnamed stream at SE 400 976 is. The designation main river is something for the purposes of the environment agency and is not intended to arbitrate what is a river or not a river for our purposes. Given Rimmer1993's response, I would prefer an objective qualification based on size. It may be a good idea to have a column for a river being a main river. Op47 (talk) 12:51, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

After a bit of looking, I think the blue line method that you are suggesting was used for the List of rivers of England, which would make it consistent, and acceptable. So all the ones you have suggested below should be in the England list as well...Jokulhlaup (talk) 14:40, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

I did mean Tutt. I will start adding the others when I can. I have also found that the unnamed river is Bradford Beck and it has a substantial article. Op47 (talk) 15:18, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

For info, if my criteria were adopted then I would expect the following to be added:

Arkle Beck,NZ0352300501

Armathwaite Gill,SE1002873146

Ashfield Sid Beck,SE1459866416

Barben Beck,SE0488861936

Barney Beck,SE00088 99711

Birkdale Beck,NY86558 01171

Bishopdale Beck,SE01623 87971

Cod Beck,SE4338479116

Costa Beck,SE7931476941

Cowling Beck ?,SE0034344481

Cowside Beck,SD9202370891

Cragg Brook,SE0079324285

Crooks Beck,SD9141386571

Earby Beck,SD9458851141

Eastburn Beck,TA0111455581

Eller Beck,NZ8358901831

Eshton Beck,SD9434854931

Ewden Beck,SK2446396724

Frodingham Beck,TA0826852650

Gayle Beck,SD7871380316

Gayle Beck,SD8710889511

Green Field Beck,SD8703880126

Harden Beck,SE1046838456

Haw Beck,SD9847350496

Hebden Water,SD9718331035

Hodge Beck,SE6917983591

Keasden Beck,SD7151867156

Kelk Beck,TA0905357400

Kingsdale Beck,SD6975376861

Little Beck,SE7489989241

Murk Esk,NZ8191903246

Oughtershaw Beck,SD8728381126

Unnamed out of Bradford,SE1504336845 (Bradford Beck)

Walden Beck,SE0185886836

West Beck,NZ8181900586

Whitsundale Beck,NY8673802181

Widdale Beck,SD8480889866

Op47 (talk) 15:04, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

On the other hand, this is a list of the main rivers:

Austwick Beck,SD7675368056

Balne Beck,SE3176422145

Barmston Main Dtrain,TA1700058651

Bedale Beck,SE2855989006

Beverley and Barmston Drain,TA0494944731

Bielby Beck,SE7977944881

Brompton Beck,SE3863497801

Broughton Beck,NZ5499405676

Broughton Bridge Beck,NZ5537408392

Bur Dike,SE5996954351

Burniston Beck,TA0211491516

Catchwater Drain,TA0404444521

Clifton Beck,SE1479324050

Cock Beck,SE4760940311

Cod Beck,SE4326978686

Costa Beck,SE8050976171

Driffield Canal,TA0684455591

Eastburn Beck,SE9983455061

Ella Dyke,TA0245445111

Eller Beck,SD9818354106

Eshton Beck,SD9430854846

Fen Beck,SD7565866631

Fenay Beck,SE1837814960

Frodingham Beck,TA0853953066

Gypsey Race,TA1316967526

Hall Dyke,SE1167311860

Harlsey Beck,SE4037997881

Haw Beck,SD9837351081

Hebden Water,SD9918828085

Hedon Haven,TA1801528105

Hessle Haven,TA0378926215

Hodge Beck,SE6925483451

Holbeck,SE6947978176

Holderness Drain,TA1275933860

Kelk Beck,TA0899456986

Keswick Beck,SE3663944186

Kettles Beck,SD7512865046

Keyingham Drain,TA2261021815

Little Don River,SE1951200524

Little Don River (001),SK2793898434

Long Preston Beck,SD8415858611

Market Weighton Canal,SE8467933950

Marrs Beck,SE6813476936

Mebble Brook,SE0663827500

Mill Beck,SE9069929225

North Beck,SE0457840901

Oak Beck,SE3028458131

Old Howe,TA1062454351

Osbaldwick Beck,SE6429952481

Pickering Beck,SE7940482736

Pocklington Canal,SE7432945056

Potto Beck,NZ4771403356

Rathmell Beck,SD8115358891

Rathmell Beck (001),SD8131857606

Red Beck,SE1277324110

River Aire,SE6509422755

River Calder,SE4169926145

River Colne,SE0924814525

River Crimple,SE3531952666

River Dearne,SE4660402355

River Derwent,SE6980438166

River Don,SE6735915265

River Dove,SE3956904380

River Esk,NZ8788908382

River Foss,SE6155956561

River Foulness,SE8191932845

River Greta,SD6752872361

River Holme,SE1365312895

River Hull,TA0784934645

River Humber,TA1789920875

River Laver,SE2910471661

River Leven,NZ4398912547

River Loxley,SK3194889463

River Nidd,SE4476953311

River Ouse,SE5795441396

River Ribble,SD8109362886

River Riccal,SE7024979596

River Rivelin,SK3167888158

River Rother,SK4340389758

River Ryburn,SE0446721334

River Seven,SE7398979256

River Sheaf,SK3266381773

River Skell,SE2985969786

River Skirfare,SD9671869601

River Spen,SE2483425315

River Swale,SE4314468371

River Tame,NZ5281411232

River Tees,NZ3612911067

River Tutt,SE3780964901

River Ure,SE4731961291

River Washburn,SE2051450131

River Wenning,SD6414869281

River Went,SE6019417415

River Wharfe,SE4625945526

River Wiske,SE3744486276

River Worth,SE0523338961

Scorborough Beck,TA0213446101

Scorton Beck,NZ2546400566

Scurf Dike,TA0647450626

Sea Cut,TA0047989601

Selby Dam,SE5986431975

Shiny Brooke,SE0474810900

Skeeby Beck,NZ2087901266

Skerne Beck,TA0501953411

Southburn Beck,SE9926954541

Stainfort and Keadby Canal,SE7387412020

Swinney Beck,SE1833482156

Tang Hall Beck,SE6343954366

Thorngumbald Drain,TA1907025970

Thornton Beck,SE8350480666

Thornton Beck (001),SE2511962706

Turker Beck,SE3840495041

Unnamed (Addingham),SE0815349866

Unnamed (Anlaby),TA0434428455

Unnamed (Appleton Roebuck),SE5554440681

Unnamed (Beauchief abbey),SK3318881983

Unnamed (Beeford),TA1125953751

Unnamed (Bentley Common),SE5782405745

Unnamed (Bentley),SE5624906480

Unnamed (Bentley) (001),SE5583905375

Unnamed (Bishop Monkton),SE3271965921

Unnamed (Bramham),SE4380944821

Unnamed (Carr House Form),TA0872455806

Unnamed (Cattleholmes),TA0856457536

Unnamed (Chickenley),SE2629421270

Unnamed (Clifton),SE5754454396

Unnamed (Cononley),SD9873346876

Unnamed (Crathorne),NZ4355906856

Unnamed (Denby Dale),SE2434409735

Unnamed (Dewsbury),SE2200422600

Unnamed (Fartown),SE1308318840

Unnamed (Featherstone),SE4344418165

Unnamed (Fitzwilliam),SE4365415375

Unnamed (Flockton),SE2631913630

Unnamed (Fulwood),SK2847885813

Unnamed (Garforth),SE4030930925

Unnamed (Gledhow),SE2806437316

Unnamed (Glusburn),SE0086344446

Unnamed (Heeley),SK3600884463

Unnamed (Hellifield),SD8514356331

Unnamed (Hepworth),SE1619308295

Unnamed (Holgate),SE5877451141

Unnamed (Hornsea),TA2060047356

Unnamed (Ilkley),SE1260848051

Unnamed (Kilnsea),TA4035516810

Unnamed (Leconfield),TA0366943016

Unnamed (Longwood),SE1025317115

Unnamed (Low Moor),SE3999497831

Unnamed (Lowthorpe),TA0863459386

Unnamed (Luddenden),SE0423825610

Unnamed (Marsden),SE0564311860

Unnamed (Mirfield),SE2087420425

Unnamed (Nafferton),TA0652957371

Unnamed (Netheroyd Hill),SE1447819035

Unnamed (Normanton),SE3913423755

Unnamed (Northallerton),SE3755493731

Unnamed (Northfield),TA0355927685

Unnamed (Oakworth),SE0331338356

Unnamed (Oxenhope),SE0358836615

Unnamed (Peasholm),TA0298488621

Unnamed (Ramsden Wood),SD9312321280

Unnamed (Rawcliffe),SE5814454091

Unnamed (Rothwell),SE3423926825

Unnamed (Roundhay),SE3399931705

Unnamed (Salt End),TA1586929595

Unnamed (Seamer),NZ4885408347

Unnamed (Selby),SE6103433835

Unnamed (Selby) (001),SE6035933515

Unnamed (Shade),SD9183823510

Unnamed (Silsden),SE0415845906

Unnamed (Skeffling),TA3763018695

Unnamed (Skeffling) (001),TA3862017800

Unnamed (Skellow),SE5284910395

Unnamed (Skerne),TA0563454431

Unnamed (Skibeden),SE0098852281

Unnamed (Slaithwaite),SE0697814325

Unnamed (Slaithwaite) (001),SE0810814955

Unnamed (Slaithwaite) (002),SE0813313375

Unnamed (Thorpe Marsh),SE5873409150

Unnamed (Todmorden),SD9257325535

Unnamed (Totley),SK3154379548

Unnamed (Wakefield),SE3047421545

Unnamed (Warland),SD9500320145

Unnamed (Waterthorpe),SK4368883028

Unnamed (Westwick),SE3460966046

Unnamed (Whiston),SK4440389888

Wath Beck,SE7130977051

Watton Beck,TA0566948186

Winestead Drain,TA3005520800

Winton Beck,SE4073997606

Op47 (talk) 18:46, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

New rivers

I have recently added 6 rivers (by name) that have been overlooked. Am I ok to get the rest of the information by tracing out on my OS map? Op47 (talk) 13:44, 6 May 2016 (UTC) Also would it be appropriate to complete the remaining entries in the same way. Op47 (talk) 13:45, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

I think that would come under WP:OR, but I’m not sure how it was done for the original article. You may find some useful information on length on this Environmental Agency website. Also, did you mean the River Tutt at Boroughbridge? see this link...Jokulhlaup (talk) 14:42, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

As an example, The Aire has acitation to a site that may or may not be reliable. The Ure has no citation and I had no success finding a source online. Our current length is given as 118km. I measured it as 115.5. The article on OR does allow routine calculations by concensus. I am not sure if this is stretching it. Oddly enough, the drainage basins can be sourced. I should also point out that my map is Fugawi, so I am confident of getting a reasonable answer. Op47 (talk) 16:11, 13 May 2016 (UTC)