Talk:Neuro-linguistic programming

Lawsuit Paragraph

ISTB351, Regarding your recent revision:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Neuro-linguistic_programming&diff=476983224&oldid=474420508

I agree the existing sources are not adequate. Perhaps the solution is adding references rather than removing the copy.

My reason for my feeling this way is based on the following:

The Independent, mentions the lawsuit. http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/healthy-living/messing-with-your-head-does-the-man-behind-neurolinguistic-programming-want-to-change-your-life-ndash-or-control-your-mind-1774383.html?action=Popup

A university professor writes about the lawsuit here. http://www.neurosemantics.com/nlp/the-history-of-nlp/the-lawsuit-that-almost-killed-nlp

The Skeptic Dictionary even covers it. http://www.skepdic.com/neurolin.html

None of these are perfect sources. But they're an indication that the perfect sources are out there-- for example the court documents themselves.--Encyclotadd (talk) 10:43, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

I have no objection at all to the inclusion of the material, and even if I did it wouldn't matter. What counts is whether there are third party reliable verifiable sources that indicate its notability. Given the sensitivity of legal matters in relation to BLP issues, we have to be even more vigilant than usual. The Independent article above mentions the lawsuit in passing, the The International Society Neuro-Semantics is not a reliable source on this matter, and the Skeptic Dictionary reference is unclear and hardly appears reliable under the circumstances. If reliable sources are found, the material can go back in, but under the circumstances as you accept "[n]one of these are perfect sources". Court documents would be primary sources and so would not be "perfect sources" as you imply. ISTB351 (talk) 11:23, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

I guess I'm persuaded by that argument and particularly your assessment of the Skeptic Dictionary as unreliable here. I would just add that, if it fails the standard of reliability here, then you may want to consider whether the Skeptic's Dictionary fails the standard of reliability of "Scientific Criticism," which it's held out as in the NLP article itself. But good luck removing it. --Encyclotadd (talk) 10:10, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

There is a third party source (it was a review of Lisa Wake's book) that sums up the lawsuit and malaise quite well in one paragraph, "Unfortunately Bandler and Grinder fell out and there was a lawsuit that was eventually resolved in 2001 with both agreeing to be recognized as co-founders of NLP. This dispute resulted in the establishment of a number of bodies to represent NLP and, in addition, various approaches have been developed and numerous strategies have been incorporated within NLP. The result of all of this trauma and change has been that NLP has grown in many directions without a clear and universally recognized unifying content. The end result has been a “discipline” which has no clear agreed definition of purpose and some external commentators question its credibility and evidence of success."(Wilson 2011 p.1) If you want to use it, the citation is: John P. Wilson, (2011) "NLP: Principles in Practice", Industrial and Commercial Training, Vol. 43 Iss: 2. --122.x.x.x (talk) 12:31, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

reliable sources and basic structure for article revision

I'm working on a revision based on current reliable sources, see User:122.x.x.x/NLP_reliable_sources. I'm starting with just a bare bones structure. If anyone else is keen to help let me know. I will be starting with a search of the literature for "Bandler+Grinder" OR "NLP" OR "Neuro-linguistic programming" OR "Neurolinguistic programming". I will use google scholar, psychinfo, pubmed and proquest. Any suggestions? --122.x.x.x (talk) 00:53, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

I suggest that you focus on improving individual sections rather than attempting a whole scale rewrite from scratch. Those on current practice etc. are weak and provided you can avoid promotion could easily be improved. Attempting to rewrite the whole thing to remove criticism, per your edit waring over four persona is unlikely to gain consensus. ----Snowded ^TALK 05:52, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

When you said "current practice etc" - are you referring to the service that NLP practitioners provide in terms of consulting coaching, and/or psychotherapy, or as a practical communications model? Or both? What other areas do you think are lacking in the current article? I just want to add the Emerald database which has a business focus to the list of databases I mentioned above. --122.108.140.210 (talk) 13:05, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Side note: I'm still working on the outline here: User:122.x.x.x/NLP_reliable_sources. I'd really appreciate your help with creating headings to cover the main topics as per the reliable sources. --122.x.x.x (talk) 14:05, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

consultancy method in business

The use as a consultancy method in business, although we need proper references. That has always been weak, less sure that there are any other major gaps ----Snowded ^TALK 06:08, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Unfortunaetly, there are not many proper references if you mean high quality peer-reviewed papers and there is no formal NLP-oriented "consultancy method in business". There are some books from academic press like FT Prentice Hall. I'll let you comment on "Open University Press" as a publisher. Those books give hints to how NLP is used as a consultancy method.

Most of the papers related to NLP indexed by business databases like Emerald are not very good quality. There are a number of business oriented papers (e.g. Yemm, 2006; Dowlen, 1996) that summarize its methods emphasizing outcome-oriented thinking with sensory acuity, flexibility in behavior and communication, rapport, and state management. There are also a low quality case studies and other mainly promotional pieces.

• Graham Yemm, (2006) "Can NLP help or harm your business?", Industrial and Commercial Training, Vol. 38 Iss: 1, pp.12 - 17
• Ashley Dowlen, (1996) "NLP - help or hype? Investigating the uses of neuro-linguistic programming in management learning", Career Development International, Vol. 1 Iss: 1, pp.27 - 34 doi:10.1108/13620439610111408

I think Tosey and Mathison (2010) are close to the mark when they say that, "[NLP] is used in organizational contexts as a method of executive coaching (Linder-Pelz and Hall, 2007; Hayes, 2006); and its techniques and frameworks have a wide variety of applications in business (Knight, 2002) and management development (Molden, 2001)." doi:10.1108/17465641011042035

• Molden, D. (2001), NLP Business Masterclass, FT Prentice Hall, London.
• Knight, S. (2002), NLP at Work: The Difference that Makes a Difference in Business, Nicholas Brealey, London.
• Hayes, P. (2006), NLP Coaching, Open University Press, Maidenhead.
• Linder-Pelz, S., Hall, L.M. (2007), "The theoretical roots of NLP-based coaching", The Coaching Psychologist, 3, 1, pp.12-17.

--122.x.x.x (talk) 12:58, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Here are a few more case studies and viewpoint articles related to the method used in business consulting:

• Case study: Ian Lavan, (2002) "NLP in business – or more than a trip to the zoo", Industrial and Commercial Training, Vol. 34 Iss: 5, pp.182 - 187
• Case study: Lisa Wake, (2011) "Applying NLP tools and techniques in an FMCG environment", Industrial and Commercial Training, Vol. 43 Iss: 2, pp.121 - 125doi:10.1108/00197851111108953

• Viewpoint: Lisa Wake, (2011) "Neurolinguistic programming: does it have a role in supporting learning or OD interventions?", Development and Learning in Organizations, Vol. 25 Iss: 1, pp.19 - 21
• Case study: Lindsey Agness, (2011) "Changing the rules of the game", Strategic HR Review, Vol. 10 Iss: 5, pp.11 - 16
• Sara Nolan (2011) says that "In “Changing the rules of the game”, Lindsey Agness proposes that successful change can be achieved by identifying and changing the unconscious rules within an organization’s culture...She draws on NLP to identify ways of breaking down those rules so that they become identifiable and therefore manageable and pliable, helping culture shifts to be achieved in a short space of time. For example, the NLP concept of pattern breaks – abrupt interruptions that break a habit or state – can be applied in business as a way of shaking up the status quo..." - Sara Nolan, (2011) "Change management", Strategic HR Review, Vol. 10 Iss: 5, pp. -

--122.x.x.x (talk) 13:37, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Not sure why you are providing these lists - they exist outside of any context. The journals are OK in the main, but it depends what you are using them to support. Please (and you have been asked this many many times before) proposed specific amendments with sources then other editors can engage. If you want to have a general discussion area use a sandbox. I would add that some of the quotes here appear to be specific cases, you really need a third party review to make a general statement about use without falling foul of WP:OR or WP:SYNTH ----Snowded ^TALK 20:23, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

You just stated that the coverage on the use of NLP as a consulting method was lacking and that we need proper sources. WP:OR states:"Best practice is to research the most reliable sources on the topic and summarize what they say in your own words, with each statement in the article attributable to a source that makes that statement explicitly." And WP:SYNTH states that: "Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources." Please elaborate on this statement: "you really need a third party review to make a general statement about use". --122.x.x.x (talk) 23:10, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

You have been editing on wikipedia for many years, you know the principles and you have stated them. What you need to do is to make a sourced proposal for comment while avoiding synthesis. The means that an article which reviews the cases is going to be better than trying to string something together from cases. The time I have for this article is going on preparing the meat puppetry/disruptive editing case for ANI as we need a long term fix. Once that is out of the way I'll happily take on looking at some content issues. Otherwise I am happy to comment if another editor makes proposals for changes, but I am not going to waste any more time on general discussions. ----Snowded ^TALK 23:19, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Snowded, you ducked the question. When you said, "You really need a third party review to make a general statement about use," what do you mean by "third party review?" Third party review of what exactly? Is that a requirement for statements about use in all articles? It seems like a completely unrealistic request to be making of another Editor and obfuscating as a result.--Encyclotadd (talk) 12:09, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I've spend far too much time trying to explain wikipedia process to you, despite the various insults and accusations. You have now been around here long enough that you can look it up in WP:RS for yourself . About 90% of your talk page edits are either accusations or statements of your opinion. I suggest a brief sabbatical on the five pillars before you sound off again. ----Snowded ^TALK 14:13, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Snowded was referring to statements that directly state or imply academic consensus. I think Snowded is trying to warn against "original research especially with regard to making blanket statements based on novel syntheses of disparate material" which is related to academic consensusWP:RS/AC. So we should use third party reviews to make general statements about academic consensus. But the key to reliable sources is: "Reliable sources may be published materials with a reliable publication process, authors who are regarded as authoritative in relation to the subject, or both."[Wikipedia:Identifying_reliable_sources] So there is no reason why we cannot use the abovementioned case studies and viewpoint articles related to NLP in business (as indexed by Emerald) if they have undergone reliable publication process by Industrial and Commercial Training, Development and Learning in Organizations, or Strategic HR Review. --122.x.x.x (talk) 22:18, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

The claims made for use in business are so weak I'm not sure it's even needed to include sources. Aside from that, I concur with 122. --Mindjuicer (talk) 22:43, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Case studies are low quality evidence for efficacy but they can be used as examples of use in business. If the case studies are reviewed or cited by others that gives them more weight. But it is not that simple. I'll quote the policy again, 'The word "source" as used on Wikipedia has three related meanings: the piece of work itself (the article, book), the creator of the work (the writer, journalist), and the publisher of the work' ...for example, FT Prentice Hall or Open University Press, Industrial and Commercial Training, Development and Learning in Organizations, or Strategic HR Review ...'All three can affect reliability.' We need to make judgements about the relative reliability of different sources. It appears Snowded is trying to apply this rule about medical claims to NLP: "Ideal sources for biomedical assertions include general or systematic reviews in reliable, third-party, published sources, such as reputable medical journals". Snowded is arguing something like "Ideal sources for assertions about use of NLP in business include general or systematic reviews in reliable, third-party, published sources, such as reputable business journals". Is that correct an accurate reflection of your position snowded? --122.x.x.x (talk) 00:00, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘An example of original research was an earlier attempt to include material from that guy who ran an education business. The danger with gathering cases, no matter what the journals, is what conclusions you draw from those and what statements are made - indeed why a particular example is selected in the first place. WP:RS is pretty clear on this and your formulation is not one I would disagree with. However until we have proposed content linked to sources it is difficult to make any judgement. ----Snowded ^TALK 00:29, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

We could start with a summary of the sources on NLP in use published in Industrial and Commercial Training, see a profile of the journal here: [4]. We need to be very careful to stick to the sources and adhere to the policies highlighted by Snowded, especially WP:SYNTH and WP:OR. No conclusions should be made or implied unless they are directly supported by the sources. We could propose the summary here and then incorporate it into the article under a section titled "organization development and employee education and training"[5] or something more relevant. We would give more more weight to any review papers in that journal (e.g. Yemm 2006) and less weight to individual case studies or promotional pieces. The editorial board should not be allowing the later. If we find additional papers and criticism it can be incorporated later. --122.x.x.x (talk) 06:43, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

As it reads I think you are in danger of failing both WP:SYNTH and WP:OR, selection is a form of evaluation. As I said before you really need something which takes a wider view. But I'll wait to see what you propose. ----Snowded ^TALK 08:48, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I hate to bang on about this, but Wikipedia is not a forum. You need to propose specific edits here, rather than this general approach. There is nothing wrong per se with the work that you have done on gathering sources, but it is not really aiding the article at the present time. Can I suggest that you do the following: either (a) make changes to the article, and a BRD cycle can begin, or (b) propose specific changes here first. Unless you conform to this approach, the article cannot be improved. Certainly, this long and discursive thread has as yet resulted in no improvement and has merely taken up a lot of editors' time and patience. I am minded to close it, if what has thus far gone on continues much longer. ISTB351 (talk) 08:57, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Apart from you there is a WP:CONSENSUS on taking a general approach. Whilst making a big edit might get there faster, it's more likely to lead to frustration, a weaker section and WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality.

A general, consensus approach can build trust as it highlights the more general aims of each editor -- and it divides up the work better. --Mindjuicer (talk) 19:13, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Too much time has been spent on this talk page in these highly general discussions, especially with 122 in both this and his previous identities. This is not a forum. Consensus based approaches are linked to proposals for actual changes. I agree with ISTB, there has been more than enough abstract discussion. When 122 is ready to make a source based proposal, then it should come back here. ----Snowded ^TALK 22:05, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I'll paraphrase those sources I mentioned earlier in my own words and make a change based on that. Then the discussion will be more concrete. I won't have time until next week to do it properly. Sorry, I'm going to have to put this off for another couple of weeks until I get some more time. I am getting more familiar with current research in management training and development. --122.x.x.x (talk) 11:36, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Resolving six years of controversy quickly and easily

I believe the reason this article has been the center of controversy for the past six years is that it's inaccurate.

The article's flaws are obvious to anyone who has studied this model in any depth. Don't believe me? Do five minutes of independent research... contact any hypnosis or NLP school in the world.

Why is this the case? Traditional Wikipedia rules have failed us.

Virtually everyone who has attended a lecture on NLP has received a "license." I submit that one can only learn communication techniques by hearing words and tonality while watching body language, in addition to reading books. When a source is "licensed," it means he took the time to attend a lecture and figure out what NLP is actually about.

Yet "licensed" sources have been regularly rejected on the grounds they have a conflict of interest.

It's time for us to view licensed sources for what they are-- significantly more knowledgeable than unlicensed sources about NLP. --Encyclotadd (talk) 17:49, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Suggest you read WP:RS and WP:COI, and come to think of it WP:SOAP, oh but they are "traditional wikipedia rules", pity really, this is the Wikipedia. If you want to change policy then propose it on the policy pages, please don't waste people's time here. The talk page is to discuss changes to the article, in accordance with policy. ----Snowded ^TALK 20:50, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

hmmm, this problem cannot be solved unless we agree on a general structure or all players from one side of the fence leave the article to the others to decide holistically what should be written. I think some common sense beyond what the current policies are should prevail. There is a voting system yes? Could we propose a structure and vote on it. Enemesis (talk) 12:30, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Encyclotadd, which portions of this article are "inaccurate"? Please tag them and provide proof of their inaccuracy. The article's "flaws" are not obvious. Please tag them and provide proof of any flaws. Don't just say "do five minutes of independent research..." and leave all the work to other editors. Do it yourself then provide proof of the independence of your research. You say Wikipedia's traditional rules have "failed us". They haven't failed me recently. They have been a great help in getting disruptive, non-collaborative and unhelpful editors banned from editing certain topics. If "virtually everyone who has attended a lecture on NLP has received a license" I think you would be on firmer ground arguing that there is something wrong with NLP not Wikipedia. Within WP:COI guidelines, there is nothing to restrict licensed practitioners from editing this article, as long as they conform to rules regarding verifiability of statements, reliability of sources and do not promote the subject or indulge their own opinions. I would welcome some input from experienced NLPers, but if you can't back up your edits, back off.

Enemesis, Wikipedia is not a democracy. One editor can easily overturn the edits of several others providing they can back up their edits with reliable sources. Famousdog (talk) 14:30, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

hmmm, well that could go on forever or until some one gives up. Perhaps wikipedia should consider that not everyone has that kind of time up their sleeves Enemesis (talk) 03:11, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

"Wikipedia" doesn't "consider" anything - it is an encyclopedia, and if you can't be bothered to spend a little time finding reliable sources for any material you want to change/add, then I can't help you. Famousdog (talk) 11:10, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Snowded has an industry affiliation that a Wikipedia administrator recently described as a conflict of interest, though he has not been banned from the article on the basis that his edits have been within guidelines. However, I believe his response above reflected that conflcit and was not particularly cooperative or helpful. Snowded, we can cooperate and you can defend your point of view-- what I'm suggesting change is factual accuracy not perspective. Everyone can agree on supporting accuracy.

Famousdog, There are two important areas of inaccuracy, and they defy tagging in the article because they are more complicated than changing a single sentence or even paragraph, and they're important to understanding this model. The first is "anchoring." For the sake of simplicity, you can just think of anchoring as being the same thing as classical conditioning. It's not the same thing. But it's clsoe enough that for the sake of this conversation you can think of them that way. (You can do a Google search for "Pavlov" and "classical conditioning" to easily understand what I'm saying.) Anchoring develops the ideas of classical conditioning further in a variety of important ways. It's taught at every reputable hypnosis and NLP school in the world as a 101 subject.

There is no way to understand the NLP model without a substantial amount of information about anchoring. It's presently a glaring omission in this article to anyone who has received any training in hypnosis or NLP. But there is no way to defend this perspective using so called "reliable sources" because not enough work has been done yet within a peer reviewed context, so the subject doesn't appear. But it's all over the hypnosis and NLP texts and in every school.

A big second issue with the article is that it suggests NLP is said to magically change things. The word "magic" appears in a lot of NLP literature, and the suggestion that things can magically change can influence someone powerfully, so is useful in NLP. But anyone who has read the literature understands, NLP is a model. The founders of the subject say over and over again that "the map is not the territory," meaning the model is not a human brain. NLP is always put forward as just a model. The word magical is used as a language pattern. This is very much confused in the article. Bandler is quoted as saying the common cold can be cured with words. A great deal of additional context should be given to that statement for the article to be understood to be accurate.

The way to solve this is to rely on sources that are licensed and highly trained in NLP because they are the ones who understand how to factually express the article.

Again, this is not about point of view. We can leave point of view in the article to so called psychological experts. But in expressing the model factually and accurately, we need to rely on the people writing about and teaching the subject matter sometimes professionally. It's the only way Wikipedia is going to get this right.--Encyclotadd (talk) 05:30, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

This is just an implicit attack on WP:RS. If you want to change WP policy, then take it up at the appropriate policy article. You cannot do so here. As for your claim that "Snowded has an industry affiliation that a Wikipedia administrator recently described as a conflict of interest", please provide some evidence. ISTB351 (talk) 05:57, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Enemesis launched some even more nonsensical accusations on my talk page so its obvious that WP:CIVIL, WP:NPA and WP:AGF are policies s/he wants to abandon along with WP:RS. I think Encyclotadd is referencing a diff I gave him when I was adjudged not be a sock puppet (another accusation made) and not to have a COI, but not to worry he is following in a path, with identical accusations, to that trodden by several other SPAs in the past along with Enemesis ----Snowded ^TALK 08:41, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘I think Encyclotadd and Enemesis need to provide some evidence for their assertions or changes that they want to make and stop treating Wikipedia as a forum. This will go nowhere until they either a) provide reliable sources or b) succeed in changing (several) WP policy/ies. Ranting here will not move things forward and, if pursued, will simply lead to a topic ban for them both. From this point onwards I will be observing WP:SILENCE until they suggest some concrete, constructive changes to the article. Famousdog (talk) 11:07, 1 March 2012 (UTC)