Talk:Presiding Patriarch

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Presiding[edit]

COGDEN, you wrote: "Among the duties of the Presiding Patriarch are to preside in council meetings" - can you please clarify this - it sounds like the presiding patriach presides over all/any council meetings in the church, including the council of the Twelve, stake high councils, 1st presidency and presiding bishopric council on disposition, etc. This needs to be clarified and referenced. Hope things are going well. -Visorstuff 21:53, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

Asahel Smith[edit]

  While Looking for image I ran across something that has me confused. I good source of image of pre-1930 leadership is

  • Jenson, Andrew (1901). Latter-day Saint biographical encyclopedia: A compilation of biographical sketches of prominent men and women in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints 1. Salt Lake City, Utah: The Andrew Jenson History Company (Printed by The Deseret News Press). 

  While reading I came across Asahel Smith.

  It reads, "Smith, Asahel, the fourth Presiding Patriarch of the Church...." and "He was ordained a patriarch by the twelve Apostles in Nauvoo, Ill, Oct 7 1844, and after the rejection of William Smith his nephew in 1845 the patriarchal office according to the hereditary order belonged to Asahel Smith". Additionally, on the same page, John Smith (John Smith (uncle of Joseph Smith)) is described as the fifth Presiding Patriarch, not the fourth as suggested by this page.
  However, Asahel Smith person is missing from the table in the "Chronology of the Presiding Patriarchs of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints". Additionally, Andrew Jenson was an Offical LDS Church Historian so I would think he would know. I do note that Jenson says that due to his heath Asahel "is not known to have taken any active part in the office of presiding patriarch".
  However, I note that Lost Legacy: The Mormon Office of Presiding Patriarch dose list John Smith (uncle of Joseph Smith)) is described as the fourth presiding patriarch and josephsmithpapers.org only list him as a "Patriarch" and not "Presiding Patriarch" as Jenson dose. So was he never set apart? Is that why Lost Legacy and josephsmithpapers.org don't list him? What was his "Status" as "Presiding Patriarch"?--ARTEST4ECHO (talk/contribs) 16:45, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

  • Comment. Huh. That is very interesting; I have never heard Asahel described as a Presiding Patriarch of the church before. From my reading of Jenson, it sounds like Asahel was set apart to the priesthood office of patriarch but was never set apart as presiding patriarch; but Jenson is also saying by right of heredity the position was Asahel's after William Smith was rejected from the position. I notice the current list has a gap from 1845 to 1849, so perhaps Jenson is saying it was really Asahel who held that position from 1845 until his death in 1848. As far as I know, there is nothing in History of the Church about this, and Asahel is not listed in the Deseret News Church Almanac, which is not an official church publication I guess, but close to it. It would be interesting to see if we could find any other sources other than Jenson on this. Good Ol’factory (talk) 00:14, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Comment. Hey, ARTEST4ECHO, I know you stopped by my talk page a bit ago to ask me about this, but I have absolutely, positively no information whatsoever to offer on this particular subject, having never looked into it before. I knew John Smith had occupied that office, but that's absolutely all I know about this subject at all. I'm sorry, but I can't be of any help, here--thanks for asking, though, and best luck in your search! - Ecjmartin (talk) 00:36, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Well, I realizes that the conventional wisdom is that Asahel was not the Presiding Patriarch, so I have no plans to change the page However, it dose seem strange that Jensen, (someone who should know) uses the term Presiding Patriarch (vs. Patriarch) and (as Good Ol’factory points out) there is a gap from 1844 to 1849, the time that Asahel would have been Presiding Patriarch, if he was.
Just so everyone knows, when I checked this morning the BYU online copy of Latter-day Saint biographical encyclopedia is down. However, the book Church Chronology: A Record of Important Events Pertaining to the History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, also by Andrew Jenson, gives the same information.
There must be more to the story. My guess is that he was never "Ordained" as Presiding Patriarch, so the LDS church doesn't consider him a Presiding Patriarch, but he was "by right of heredity" the next in line. It's just interesting. --ARTEST4ECHO (talk/contribs) 13:22, 5 January 2012 (UTC)