Talk:Ragnall mac Somairle

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Ragnall and Rögnvaldr[edit]

Williams argued that since Ragnall styled himself 'Lord of Kintyre', he is more likely to have taken part in the Caithness episode than Rögnvaldr. I only just realised that McDonald and Woolf have stated that either Ragnall or his son Ruaidrí, had daughters who married Rögnvaldr and Óláfr. If that was the case, then maybe it shouldn't come as a surprise that troops from Kintyre accompanied Rögnvaldr to Caithness, since either way Rögnvaldr's father-in-law was 'Lord of Kintyre'. I wonder if Williams was aware of the identification of the marriages; he doesn't seem to have been aware of the re-analysis of Howden's chronicle. I haven't read Woolf's A Dead Man at Ballyshannon, which is cited by McDonald; I wonder if there is some stuff in it that could improve this article (something about the Ragnall/Ruaidrí marriage alliance with Rögnvaldr maybe?).--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 12:18, 12 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Orkneyinga saga confusion[edit]

Sellar (2000, pp.196-197) used Joseph Anderson's 1873 version of the saga, which says that the mother of Rögnvaldr's father was Ingibjörg. However McDonald (2007, p.72), using Finnbogi Guðmundsson's 1965 version of the saga, says that the saga states that Rögnvaldr's mother was Ingibjörg. I can confirm that Anderson's version is correctly quoted by Sellar (since it's freely available on the net); but I don't have access to the version of the saga used by McDonald. I wonder whether the difference is merely a typo of McDonald's part, or if the Finnbogi Guðmundsson's version corrects some sort of Victorian error in the translation. Does anyone know?--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 10:23, 17 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

My version is a translation by Palsson and Edwards. It states "..Rognvald Godrodarson, King of the Hebrides, whose mother was Ingibjorg.... . Ben MacDui 21:44, 17 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
OK, good to know the recent translations are consistent. Thanks.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 08:11, 18 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
If you can access the original (I took a look and couldn't see anything) I am sure we can find someone who could offer a translation of the relevant phrase. Ben MacDui 08:42, 18 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Here's the original text from Guðbrandur Vigfússon's version: Varð Skota-konúngr þessu reiðr mjök, ok sendi menn í Suðreyjar til Rögnvalds Suðreyja-konúngs Guðröðarsonar. Moðir Guðröðar var Íngibjörg, dóttir Hákonar jarls Pálssonar.[1] In Williams' chapter in West Over Sea Williams cites Finnbogi Guðmundsson's version, and in a footnote gives what must be a direct quotation from it: Varð Skotakonungr þessu reiðr mjøk ok sendi menn í Suðreyjar til Røgnvlds Suðreyjakonungs Guðrøðarsonar. Móðir Guðrøðar var Ingibørg, dóttir Hákonar jarls Pálssonar.[2] In the body of his chapter, Williams gives what must be his own English translation of the quoted text; here's the relevant bit: The king of the Scots was greatly annoyed by this, and sent messengers to the Suðreyjar, to Rögnvaldr Guðrøðarson, king of the Suðreyjar. The mother of Guðröðr was Ingibjörg, daughter of jarl Hákon Pálsson.[3] I wonder why Pálsson and Edwards have Ingibjörg as Rögnvaldr's mother. I guess it could be a mistake on their part, or maybe they followed a different version of the saga.
So McDonald seems to have slipped up. He either made a mistake in translating Finnbogi Guðmundsson's version on his own, or maybe merely followed Pálsson and Edwards' translation (or someone else's) and mistakenly cited Finnbogi when he shouldn't have. I wonder which edition of the saga scholars regard as the most authoritative? In From Pictland to Alba Woolf noted that: The most accessible translation of the saga is the Penguin Classic edition; Hermann Pálsson and Paul Edwards, tr., Orkneyinga Saga: The History of the Earls of Orkney (Harmondsworth, 1981), but for those interested in the historical value of the text a more useful version remains A. B. Taylor, tr., The Orkneyinga Saga (Edinburgh, 1938). We are badly in need of a new 'student edition' with adequate footnotes and critical discussion.[4]

References

  1. ^ Vigfusson, G, ed. (1887). Icelandic Sagas and other Historical Documents relating to the Settlements and Descents of the Northmen on the British Isles. Rerum Britannicarum Medii Ævi Scriptores. Vol. Vol. 1. London: Her Majesty's Stationery Office. p. 225. {{cite book}}: |volume= has extra text (help)
  2. ^ Williams, G (2007). "'These People were High-born and Thought Well of Themselves': The Family of Moddan of Dale". In Smith, BB; Taylor, S; Williams, G (eds.). West Over Sea: Studies in Scandinavian Sea-borne Expansion and Settlement before 1300. The Northern World: North Europe and the Baltic c. 400–1700 AD. Peoples, Economics and Cultures (series vol. 31). Leiden: Brill. p. 147 n. 39. ISBN 978 90 04 15893 1. ISSN 1569-1462.
  3. ^ Williams, G (2007). "'These People were High-born and Thought Well of Themselves': The Family of Moddan of Dale". In Smith, BB; Taylor, S; Williams, G (eds.). West Over Sea: Studies in Scandinavian Sea-borne Expansion and Settlement before 1300. The Northern World: North Europe and the Baltic c. 400–1700 AD. Peoples, Economics and Cultures (series vol. 31). Leiden: Brill. pp. 146–147. ISBN 978 90 04 15893 1. ISSN 1569-1462.
  4. ^ Woolf, A (2007). From Pictland to Alba, 789–1070. The New Edinburgh History of Scotland (series vol. 2). Edinburgh: Edinburgh University Press. p. 277 n. 4. ISBN 978 0 7486 1233 8.

Article title and names[edit]

I'll readily admit I know virtully nothing about Gaelic naming conventions, and I can't find anything in the manual to answer this one way or the other. Thus, if this comes across as a highly incompetent question, feel free to rain abuse accordingly. That said...

I notice that the naming convention in the article differs from the article title (Ragnall/Raghnall, Somhairle/Somairle). For a newbie to the topic like myself, this is pretty confusing (and don't even get me started on where Somairle redirects...). I realise that historians have used different renderings for these names, so the inconsistency isn't surprising, but would it not make more sense if one naming convention was used throughout, either by moving the page to Ragnall mac Somairle or by changing the names in the text?

Apologies if this has already been debated at length and answered somewhere else; feel free to point me there if so. Yunshui 雲‍水 10:08, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

OK. I hope it's less confusing now.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 10:33, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review[edit]

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Ragnall mac Somairle/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: 3family6 (talk · contribs) 15:46, 3 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]


GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)
  1. It is reasonably well written.
    a (prose, no copyvios, spelling and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):
    This line in the "Saddell Abbey" section is clearly mistaken: "For example, when the monastery's charters were confirmed in 1393 by Pope Clement VII (died 1534)" - Pope Clement VII clearly did not live that long (his article says he lived from 26 May 1478 – 25 September 1534).
    Damn. I blindly wiki-linked to the article titled "Pope Clement VII". I specifically remember looking up this guy's death-date in The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church to confirm the death-date given in that article. But it never struck me that this he couldn't have been the man that Ragnall's article refers to. In fact, I should have wiki-linked to the article Wikipedia calls "Antipope Clement VII". The sources concerning Ragnall don't actually title Clement "Antipope" though, just "Pope Clement VII" and "Clement VII". Historically, contemporary Scots were amongst those who regarded him the true pope, whilst others regarded another man pope. It was the era of the so-called Great Schism. Anyway, I added a note for readers. Thanks a lot for catching this. I was totally asleep at the switch there, but have learned a bit by sorting it out at least.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 02:17, 11 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    That's fine, no problem. :) The additional information you added is quite good.--¿3family6 contribs 02:54, 11 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    Under "Death" - "If this date is correct then Ragnall's death may be related to his defeat suffered at the hands of brother." - omits his.--¿3family6 contribs 18:18, 7 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    Fixed.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 02:17, 11 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    Other than the comments above, the article is very well done. Many sources are offline, which I'm accepting AGF. Because of the copious amounts of references, I have only spot-checked a few, and based on that selection I see no indication that there are any copyvios.--¿3family6 contribs 20:33, 7 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.
    a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):
    Highly referenced, and references are formatted very well. Citations where needed. I haven't checked all of the sources which I can access, but I spot-checked a few and thus am accepting the rest, as well as the inaccessible sources, AGF.--¿3family6 contribs 20:33, 7 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  3. It is broad in its coverage.
    a (major aspects): b (focused):
    Excellent balance of staying within the scope of the article subject while providing historical context.--¿3family6 contribs 19:59, 7 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.
    Fair representation without bias:
    Very neutral, encyclopedic tone.--¿3family6 contribs 19:59, 7 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  5. It is stable.
    No edit wars, etc.:
    Highly stable, almost entirely single author.--¿3family6 contribs 19:59, 7 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.
    a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
    Images provide excellent visual context for the article. No licensing problems.--¿3family6 contribs 17:46, 5 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  7. Overall: Two errors, one of which is very small, that I noted above. After those are resolved, I will pass this article.--¿3family6 contribs 20:33, 7 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
checkY Errors resolved.--¿3family6 contribs 02:54, 11 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Pass/Fail:

Concluding remarks[edit]

A very well done article. Brianann MacAmhlaidh, I'd recommend putting this one up for FA review, when you feel it is ready for punishment.--¿3family6 contribs 02:59, 11 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks very much.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 21:59, 14 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Wrong Rǫgnvaldr, concerning Conquest in Caithness[edit]

If we look at the justification given that the Orkneyinga saga is refer to Ragnall mac Somairle we have:

1. "For example, the saga makes the erroneous statement that Rǫgnvaldr was descended from Ingibjǫrg Pálsdóttir"

Ingibjǫrg Pálsdóttir married Óláfr Guðrøðarson (died 1153), and he is the father of Guðrøðr Óláfsson (d.1187), who is the father of Rǫgnvaldr Guðrøðarson (d.1236) king of the Isles and who the saga says the King of the Scot called on:

"William, King of Scots, heard that Earl Harald (Ungi) had been killed, and also that Earl Harald, Maddad’s son, had subdued the whole of Caithness without asking his leave. He became enraged at this, and sent men to the Sudreyar to Rögnvald, Gudröd’s son, the King of the Sudreyar. Gudröd’s mother was Ingibiorg, daughter of Earl Hákon, Paul’s son."

The thirteenth-to-fourteenth-century Chronicle of Mann says that Guðrøðr's mother was Affraic, a daughter of Fergus, Lord of Galloway. Compared to the thirteenth century copy of the twelfth century Orkneyinga saga, which says Gudröd’s mother was Ingibiorg, i.e., the other wife of Óláfr Guðrøðarson. i would trust the the near contemporary source.

2. "The saga also notes that Rǫgnvaldr's military force was partly gathered from Kintyre,[94] which may be more likely of Ragnall than Rǫgnvaldr, since Ragnall is known to have specifically styled himself dominus Ergile et Kyntyre.[71]"

Ragnall mac Somairled is called Rex Insularum, dominus Ergile et Kyntyre, in a copy of charter dating to 1508. we have no idea what the original actually said. We know that he was certainly not Rex Insularum (i.e. Ri Innse Gall), for that was the title used in letters from the king of Norway and England when addressing Rögnvald Gudrödson. The saga also tells that Rögnvald gathered an armed host from the Isles, Kintyre, and Ireland. Rögnvald Gudrödson was the king of the Isles, which formerly ruled Dublin and was brother-in-law and supporter of John de Courcy who was ruling the former King of Ulaid (co. Down) in Ireland. Additionally at some point Rögnvald Gudrödson marries his brother to Lauon, the daughter of a certain man of rank of Kintyre and sister to his own wife. Hence, Rögnvald Gudrödson has allies in Kintyre to call on. Rögnvald Gudrödson is by far the better fit to gathered an armed host from the Isles, Kintyre, and Ireland. And the one actually named in the saga.

3. "Also, transcriptions and translations of Howden's account of the episode have generally stated that "Reginaldus" was a son of Somairle."

However as noted: "A recent reanalysis of the main extant version of Howden's chronicle has shown, however, that this particular part of the text originally read in Latin Reginaldus filius rex de Man, and was later altered to include Somairle's name above the last three words. Since the source of the original manuscript probably read in Latin Reginaldus filius Godredi, the sea-king in question appears to have been Rǫgnvaldr rather than Ragnall.[95]" 95. Beuermann (2008); McDonald (2007) p. 110; Barrow (1971) p. 25 n. 74.

None of the three points disprove Rögnvald Gudrödson in favor of Ragnall mac Somairle, instead they support the identification of Rögnvald Gudrödson!

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