Talk:Sam Houston

Sam, not Samuel

Can we get this moved back to Sam Houston? Samuel was his legal name, and belongs in the first line, but nobody ever called him that. - Hephaestos 10:59 Apr 25, 2003 (UTC)

It's the most common now and appropriate via WP:NAMES, but people most certainly called him that, particularly in formal settings. Of course, he would've called them stuffed shirts (at the least.) -LlywelynII (talk) 23:08, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Texas can't secede

Does anyone, especially the author, have any documentation for the persistent myth that Texas has the ability to revert to an independent nation? While it is true that the state could have been sub-divided into Five states, there is no mention of reverting to an independent nation in the "Joint Resolution for Annexing Texas to the United States" which was the controlling document. You can see the original at here. Jim - May 28, 2004

I've always tended to think Texas would have made use of such a clause in seceding in the 1860s rather than join the Confederacy if it had actually been the case. So I never really delved into whether it was true or not (since I always assumed it was not). Although it may have been something negotiated by Houston and changed shortly afterward. - Hephaestos|§ 23:50, 28 May 2004 (UTC)

Texas was torn by the Civil War like other states were. Houston did mention early in 1863 to two of his friends, Eber Cave and Alenxander Terrell, the idea of calling home all Texas soldiers and reverting to an independent nation. Both men suggested that no one speak of this idea again and even Houston's image could save his life if such a suggestion leaked out.-[TLincoln]]

No, because there isn't any basis for it. Texas specifically lost a Supreme Court case that handed out the dicta that once it joined the Union, it was a state just as any other & joined the other states in their prohibition from unilateral secession. -LlywelynII (talk) 23:08, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Ballad of Sam Houston

How about anything on the Ballad of Sam Houston? - 71.53.17.3 (talk) 17:56, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Senator

Houston was a Senator from Texas. Someone just changed the succession box to read "Class 2" Senator or something. What does that mean? I'd change it back, but on the off-chance that it's legit, I'll leave it for now. --Myles Long 15:49, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

Each state has two senators, "Class 1" and "Class 2". The classes don't mean anything other than when the office is up for election -- Nik42 03:24, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

There are three classes (1, 2 and 3) to reflect the fact that a third of the Senate demits every second year. The original senators were divided into three classes (balanced by region and with no state having both senators in the same class) and lots drawn to determine which class would vacate after 2 years, which after 4 and which after 6, so as to allow the current staggered elections to six-year terms. Each new state on admission has its senators allocated to two of the classes. (Incidentally, each state's two senators are referred to either as "senior" or "junior", the former being the one whose continuous service predates the other's)139.149.1.211 15:49, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

I think that should be clearly defined in the article in question.

It is. -LlywelynII (talk) 23:09, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Marriage to Eliza Allen

According to the book, Andrew Jackson: His Life and Times, by H.W. Brands, at the time of Houston's marriage to Eliza talk in Tennessee was of Houston following Jackson for the Presidency. The wedding was the major social event of the year in Tennessee.

However weeks after the wedding Eliza had returned to her parents, and Sam Houston resigned his governorship of Tennessee only three months into office. Rumors were that Sam had discovered that Eliza was not a virgin, but were discounted when Sam vowed to write in heart's blood of any libeler of her nature.

Quoting from the above named text, Sam "humiliated before the world, he threw over his career and fled the scene of his mortification".

This is an interesting contrast to the Sam Houston who at the Battle of Horseshoe Bend held a man at gun point to force him to pull out a barbed arrow, and afterwords was told to lay out the rest of the battle by Jackson himself, but hobbled on to continue fighting until shot twice with bullets (page 218 of above text).

This is where history can have a lesson that is timeless. Houston could handle the British, and handle the Red Stick Indians, he could even handle both together, but the sad human condition is when it comes to a young, beautiful, vivacious woman he was no match. He climbed in a bottle, and moved west to Indian country, as he had enough of white women (at least for a while).

71.114.161.229

The section regarding Houston's marriage to Eliza Allen needs specific references. The link connected to Eliza's father, John, should either be disambiguated or, if there is no Wikipedia article, eliminated. Vereverde (talk) 01:51, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Point of trivia: The City of Houston was founded, coincidentally, by a pair of brothers named Augustus and John Allen. Vereverde (talk) 03:40, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

National leader

I would suspect, though I don't know for sure, that Sam Houston was also the only person in American history to have served as both a governor and the leader of a foreign (as it was at the time) nation. -- Nik42 03:26, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Actually, he is one of only two. Thomas Chittenden held the title of governor of Vermont on two occasions prior to 1791, at which time Vermont called itself a state but was actually an independent republic, meaning that Chittenden was (reluctantly) a head of state of a foreign nation. Chittenden continued as Vermont's governor for six years after Vermont finally joined the United States. Jsc1973 (talk) 13:29, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Houston's party

On Kinky Friedman's website, he says he is an independent, "which is the party of George Washington, Teddy Roosevelt, Sam Houston, and Davy Crockett."

On List of Governors of Texas, Houston is listed as a Democrat. Can anyone resolve this? -Ieverhart 03:52, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps Friedman was refering to Houston's appearing on the ballot of the Constitutional Union Party in the 6 November 1860 presidential election. That is all that I am aware of. ~TLincoln 19 May 2006

Seeing as how Crockett and Houston were Jackson Democrats, Roosevelt a Republican, and Washington a Federalist, I assume he's talking about their actions, as in they didn't do what the party told them to do but did what was needed. Otherwise, Kinky's just name dropping, hoping no one would notice. 03:59, 22 July 2006

Crockett wasn't a Jackson Democrat. Page even lists his party as Anti-Jackson Democrat. -LlywelynII (talk) 23:20, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

I believe Houston's last term as Gov. of Texas was as an independent. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.74.232.50 (talk • contribs)

A, Kinky Friedman is not a reliable source. B, he's talking about attitude, not Ross Perot's baby. -LlywelynII (talk) 23:20, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

But in answer to section heading, Houston was a Jacksonian Democrat in Tennessee, a member of the War Party in Mexican Texas, head and namesake of what gets called the Houston Party in RoT politics (v. the Lamar, Burnet, or Anti-Houston Party,) a (Unionist) Democrat again after annexation, and almost nominated by the National Union Party. In the 1859 election, he ran against the state party's candidate, so you could call him an independent, but he probably still thought of himself as a Democrat, albeit a Unionist one against the fire-eaters. The ballots didn't list party affiliation. -LlywelynII (talk) 23:29, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Pictures Available

Yesterday I took pictures of the Sam Houston Statue outside of Huntsville. If anyone wishes to use these pictures for the article I will declare them public domain. They are 2592x1944 at full size, selectable at the bottom. p1260440.jpg and p1260446.jpg are probably the best candidates for use. I will crop or resize if requested. pecosdave 09:52, 27 January 2006 (CST)

No need to say 'Largest in the World'

Saying that His statue is the biggest of an american hero in the world is just trying to make it seem very important. "Biggest Satue of an American Hero" The title says it American, why would other countries have a statue of another country's hero. That just seems stupid. It would be like saying "Germany has the highest number of Germans in the world" Duhhh! Of course stupid!

What, does like, no other country have any statues? You make no sense. Well, it's the Biggest Statue of an American Hero, as opposed to, say, the biggest statue of a German hero. Let me respond to you with your own words: It would be like saying "America is the only country that can have statues" Duhhh! Of course not stupid! Lukewarm and proud, LOOKIE MILK! (talk) 02:43, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Hero is probably POV, but otherwise it's fine. More Irish people live in America than Ireland, and it's possible someone somewhere built a bigger statue to Douglas MacArthur, Michael Jackson, whoever. Then again, it is redundant: 'Largest' implies 'in the world.' -LlywelynII (talk) 23:43, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Governor of two states

While Houston may have been the only person to be governor of two states (and if so that's technically correct), I wonder if we might want to footnote it that there is at least one other person that was the governor of one state, and later the governer of a "state territory". William A. Newell is indeed listed as Governor of New Jersey and Governor of Washington Territory. -- Sholom 14:14, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, a state and a territory are two different things. There really is no need for this article to mention Newell. --JW1805 (Talk) 16:55, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

I didn't change the entry, because the point has merely bar-bet significance, but if "governor" means "constitutional chief executive of a state in the USA," then Houston was at best the second such person. John Dickinson was consecutively president of Delaware and president of Pennsylvania under their respective state constitutions; in fact he was technically in both offices simultaneously for two months, Nov 1782-Jan 1783. At the time, of course, the United States was under the Articles of Confederation, but Delaware and Pennsylvania were very much states in the US constitutional sense. That they called their chief executive officers presidents is no more significant than that Louisiana and Alaska call their county-equivalents parishes or boroughs. 71.171.20.26 (talk) 15:49, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Page Moved (N/m)

There are actually two historical Sam Houstons. The much more ntoable Texan and the less known but stil notable Mainer who was a bodyguard to George Washington and is in the Washington Crossing the Delaware painting. As such, I have moved Same Houston to this page and made the original page a disambig page so people can find both and learn something along the way. Hope that's OK. Just tryign to be bold. :) Gator (talk) 21:53, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Per some good advice, I've put this back witha disambig link and kept the page here. I think this is MUCH better. I'll delete the Sam Houston (Texas) page.Gator (talk) 13:47, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Sam Houston National Forest

I see no mention of the national forest that carries his namesake. Mention of this needs to go into the article, and perhaps an article be made about the SHNF...

By all means, add an article and link it back here to its eponym, but on this page, while it'd go in a Legacy section, is it really all that important? -LlywelynII (talk) 23:44, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Good Article Nomination

This is a great article, and I almost confirmed it for good article status, but couldn't. The biggest failure of this article is that is contains no inline references, which are mandatory, especially for quotes and really specific tidbits of info. If someone could address this issue, I think it would be worthy of GA status.--Esprit15d 19:17, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

I will try to work on this. Most of the quotes I added I got from Haley's book. --JW1805 (Talk) 18:25, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

I completely concur. It was the sole reason why I didn't promote it myself today. Rest assured that it will surely reache GA, and most likely eventually FA status as soon as this issue is fixed. Congrats on an excellent article, and regards. Phaedriel ♥ tell me - 16:13, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

The last person to have commented (Phaedriel) appears to have forgotten to put in the failed nomination template. Then someone on the same day (13th May) promoted the article and slapped on the GA template rather than fixing the error! This is not in conformance with our nomination process. I have delisted the GA status due to reasons stated originally by Esprit15d. With a major article such as this, I would recommend not only the citation of quotes, but also contentious facts should be gathered and cited to avoid any challenges and make the article in conformance to WP:V. RelHistBuff 10:09, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Good > C-class

So, did something get misplaced? or did the grading just get tougher? -LlywelynII (talk) 00:18, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Looking at c. 2006 article, it looks nicer now, though still too cluttered w/images towards the bottom. -LlywelynII (talk) 00:41, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Faith

Nothing about his faith is mentioned in here. Was that purposefully left out? (It is a topic often heavily debated in articles on other figures) I'm not touching this article without anyone else's consent (it's far too pretty). Colonel Marksman 23:40, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Why is his faith so important? I'm getting pretty sick of the tendancy these days to make someone's faith so damn prominent. Who cares! Keep faith out of politics, keep politics out of faith, and stop basing everything on how you pray or who you pray to or if you even do at all! WHO CARES!

Col. Marksman did. Fwiw, Masonic Baptist by the end of his life; hell-raiser for most of it. -LlywelynII (talk) 23:57, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Minor Confusion

As a non-American, I was left with some questions after reading the opening paragraph:

• "when Texas seceded from the Union" - what Union, and when?
• "he refused an offer of an army to put down the rebellion"

What rebellion? The Alamo-thing? Or the civil war? -216.232.239.193 03:25, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

I added a link to Union (American Civil War) to help clarify that. The union was what the northern states in the American Civil War called themselves; the south was the confederacy. The north considered the south to be in "rebellion", hence the term. I hope the link gets you in the right direction to find out more. Sorry for the ameri-centric confusion! Kuru ^talk 03:34, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

I share this confusion (and I live in Texas). I was trying to do some grammar/clarity/spelling cleanups, but some of the sentences aren't clear. I'm not knowledgeable about the subject, but the "rebellion" part could use some clarifying, and I'm not sure what the "encouraging emigration to Tennessee" sentence means. Some knowledgeable editor could perhaps help here. And why is this all in red? - Special-T 04:49, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

White people who lived with Native Americans..

Does anyone have any info on white/mexican/black americans who lived with native americans...?It would be an interesting subject...I figured Sam Houstons page or the article about Quanah Parkers mother would have a link to such a catagory. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Np209 (talk • contribs) 06:19, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Reference to Neil Armstrong's first word spoken from the Moon to the Earth

Hello; I added the following to the Popular Culture section of the article. This has always been an interesting historical curiosity to me, that Sam Houston's name was the first word spoken from the Moon to the Earth. However, Gwernol considers it irrelevant because it refers to the NASA space center, not the person. But since the city, and therefore the NASA facility (or its nickname), were named for the person, it is still Sam Houston's name that was immortalized by Neil Armstrong. I therefore believe that this reference should be included in the article, and was invited by Gwernol to open a discussion about it. Any ideas?

the reference:

Houston's name became the first word spoken to the Earth from another world when Neil Armstrong, commander of Apollo 11, uttered the memorable line, "Houston, tranquility base here; the Eagle has landed." (The very first word spoken on the moon was probably part of Buzz Aldrin's technical commentary; Armstrong's were the first specifically addressed back to Earth.)

--RomeoWhiskeyCharlie (talk) 21:53, 21 April 2008 (UTC)RomeoWhiskeyCharlie

TImber Ridge - Birth Place

I believe that this article links to the wrong Timber Ridge. The Timber Ridge in the link is 75 miles north of the one in this article. Timber Ridge in Rockbridge Co is another place(Rockenonboy (talk) 14:10, 4 October 2008 (UTC))

Originally, John Wayne Was to Have Portrayed Houston in His "Alamo"

I added the following sentence to the Popular Culture section: "John Wayne was to have portrayed Houston in his 1960 film The Alamo, a bit part that would have allowed the Duke to focus on his (first major) directing effort, but the money-lenders insisted that the movie star play a leading character, and so he took on the role of Davy Crockett while handing the part of Houston to Richard Boone." Asteriks (talk) 15:12, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

It needs a citation, or it will be removed. I'm thinking it might be removed anyway, because it is trivial and is really a tidbit about John Wayne, not Sam Houston. --Evb-wiki (talk) 15:26, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

First to build school in Tennessee

In the section of this article entitled: Early Life and Family Heritage, the article says:

"He returned to Maryville in 1812, and, at the age of 19, founded a one-room schoolhouse. This was the first school ever built in Tennessee, which had become a state in 1796."

Even if this statement is technically true (which should be researched and referenced) it is nevertheless misleading and should be reworded. There were schools established in what is now Tennessee prior to 1796.

For example, Martin Academy was chartered in 1780 in Limestone County, although at that time Limestone County was part of North Carolina. See the text at http://www.wca-pvt.com/history.htm

The University of Tennessee, Knoxville was founded in 1794 as Blount College, although at that time Knoxville was part of the Southwest Territory. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Tennessee#Founding_and_early_days

Vereverde (talk) 18:57, 17 July 2010 (UTC)Vereverde

Cordova Rebellion

Removed text saying Houston 'put down' the Cordova Rebellion. He did nothing of the kind. He acted to prevent posses of loyal citizens, gave orders to Rusk (which Rusk ignored) not to pursue or engage beyond the Angelina, and refused to act on copious evidence that The Bowl or his tribesmen were in collusion with Mexican agents. It's an example of his mismanagement and failure of leadership (or possibly 'benign neglect,') but certainly not a positive accomplishment. -LlywelynII (talk) 00:16, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Sequence of marriages?

The article says

Houston and Eliza separated shortly after the marriage,[...] and they were divorced in 1837

and

After his wife left him, he lived again among the Cherokee, who formally adopted him as a member of their nation. He married a Cherokee widow

and

Houston left his home with the Cherokee in December 1832

So he married Eliza around 1828, separated soon after, and divorced her in 1837. But he married the Cherokee woman before 1832. So he was married to two women 1832-1837? AxelBoldt (talk) 05:08, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

I have not seen this issue addressed directly. What would have been the requirements for divorce under Cherokee law? We don't know whether, perhaps, Houston may have somehow fulfilled the tribe's requirements for divorce before he married one of its members. However, the state governments of the Union probably would not have given legal comity to a divorce recognized under Cherokee law. Consequently, in the absence of a decree of divorce from one of Tennessee's state courts, that state government probably would have considered the second marriage bigamous and invalid.

Regardless, in 1833, when Houston began to court Anna Raguet in Nacogdoches, Texas, he became convinced that he should divorce Eliza Allen. At the time, Texas was still under Mexican rule, and the law there did not authorize divorce. Nevertheless, Houston hired an attorney to draft an application for divorce and filed it in the Mexican court, where it laid dormant for lack of authority to be granted. After the revolution, when Houston became President of the Republic of Texas, he issued a proclamation (probably beyond his legal authority) that authorized a judge to hear his application for divorce, and it was eventually granted in 1837. Nevertheless, Raguet refused to marry Houston, and she instead married the man whom he had entrusted as courier for his love letters to her. For a discussion of Houston's failed love affair with Anna Raguet, see the article, "IRION, ANNA W. RAGUET", in The Handbook of Texas Online Vereverde (talk) 03:11, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Fashions of the time

I think one of Sam Houston's distinguishing characteristics was his fashion - which was something he was famous for. Does anybody else think this would make for a good addition to the article? If so, I will write it. It speaks to his eccentricity.Anneaholaward (talk) 15:45, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Whatever is calculated... quote citation

Good evening all. I just wanted to source the quote from the "U.S. Senator from Texas" (New to edits here, so I apologize in advance if its ill-formatted.)

It's sourced from the Book, "Sam Houston" by James L. Haley, pg 304. via Google books.

"Whatever is calculated ... will never meet with my unqualified approval."

Adarro (talk) 04:21, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Removed Unionist convictions

After doing some research about Sam Houston I don't think this statement was fitting for the introduction:

"Although a slaveholder and opponent of abolitionism, he had unionist convictions. ^{[citation needed]}"

Unless someone feels strongly that I am wrong, I don't think it belongs in the introduction. If so, maybe it should be rephrased. A. Ward (talk) 06:33, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Sam Houston

Is also a Firefighting Helmet. Made by Cairns. the N6A Sam Houston, Leather Firefighting Helmet. is one of the best on the market. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.36.73.107 (talk) 06:30, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Inconsistencies re:Houston's Cherokee wife

In the "Marriage and family" section we are told:

In April 1829, in part due to the embarrassment of his well known separation, Houston resigned as governor of Tennessee and went west with the Cherokee to exile in Arkansas Territory. That year he was adopted as a citizen in the nation. There Houston cohabited with Tiana Rogers Gentry, a part-Cherokee widow in her mid-30s. They lived together for several years, and though he was still married under civil law he married Tiana under the Cherokee law.[9] After declining to accompany Houston to Texas in 1832, she later married John McGrady.

While in "Republic of Texas":

The publicity surrounding the trial raised Houston's unfavorable political reputation. He asked his wife, Diana Rodgers, to go with him to Mexican Texas, but she preferred to stay at their cabin and trading post in Oklahoma. She later married a man named Sam McGrady and died of pneumonia in 1838.

So is she Tiana Rogers Gentry or Diana Rogers? Did she go on to marry a John or a Sam McGrady? And were she and Houston residing in Arkansas or Oklahoma Territory? The section of Arkansas Territory that became Oklahoma Territory was split off before he arrived, so it can't be explained away that way. The book cited in the first paragraph actually argues against Tiana. — Laura Scudder | talk 20:39, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

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