Talk:Society of Saint Pius X
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Membership
[edit]Is there any reliable citations or sources to back up the SSPX membership figuers? In this source the SSPX claims that 11 new priest were ordained and thousnads attended the ceremony, and in this it claims that over 170 people attended the most recent SSPX event. Of course both of these come from the SSPX's website and as thus is WP:PRIMARY and as a result should be taken with a grain of salt. Are there any third-party sources on the SSPX's membership? Inter&anthro (talk) 18:54, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
- What I usually do in such cases is use the News tab on Google in hope of finding some articles on the ordinations, professions or whatnot. This is how I found sources to Sisters Adorers of the Royal Heart of Jesus, which I have expanded a bit. You will probably have to look through different languages and use a lot of filters. If you can’t find anything from the big ones there’s always local or regional news, Catholic news, trad news such as The Remnant (although I don’t know if they report about SSPX specifically, I don’t really read stuff from them) asf. I don’t think I personally have time to do the searching, sorry. But perhaps you could do it if you want. Cheers. MichaelTheSlav (talk) 21:36, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
- The Saint Mary's Academy and College claims to have over 700 students enrolled as of 2008. Given that the SSPX is attributed to have about 1,000 members in this article, I find that rather doubtful as the actual number is much higher. Both the SSPX and the PFSP usually claim to ordain around 10 men every year. That being said, not everyone who attends a school run by the SSPX or attends mass at an SSPX-run parish considers themself a member of the SSPX, and might just identify as a traditional Catholic or just Catholic. Thus it will probably be hard to come up with any reliable concrete numbers besides the sats that the SSPX itself publishes. Inter&anthro (talk) 05:27, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
- SSPX and the others are priestly societies, and do not have lay members such as the people who attend their Masses and events. The only people counted in SSPX memberships are the ones who have been ordained and incardinated with them. Elizium23 (talk) 05:41, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
- Sorry I overlooked that, thanks. Inter&anthro (talk) 18:17, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
- SSPX and the others are priestly societies, and do not have lay members such as the people who attend their Masses and events. The only people counted in SSPX memberships are the ones who have been ordained and incardinated with them. Elizium23 (talk) 05:41, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
- The Saint Mary's Academy and College claims to have over 700 students enrolled as of 2008. Given that the SSPX is attributed to have about 1,000 members in this article, I find that rather doubtful as the actual number is much higher. Both the SSPX and the PFSP usually claim to ordain around 10 men every year. That being said, not everyone who attends a school run by the SSPX or attends mass at an SSPX-run parish considers themself a member of the SSPX, and might just identify as a traditional Catholic or just Catholic. Thus it will probably be hard to come up with any reliable concrete numbers besides the sats that the SSPX itself publishes. Inter&anthro (talk) 05:27, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
Allies and supporters
[edit]It would be good to add information about Bishop Vigàno and Athanasius here. Eaden (talk) 17:40, 4 September 2020 (UTC)
Section Needs Work: Lifestyle and clothing amongst SSPX adherents
[edit]I'm not sure what the purpose of this section is. There's a quote by a former SSPX member complaining about female attire, and then an anecdote about a mothers in skirts. Can we either get a fuller section that gives a more holistic view of the topic or consider scrapping this section? I am not convinced from reading this section how or if people whom attend the SSPX can be said to be distinct in any particular way. --Valepio (talk) 20:46, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
- The section is worth keeping because there is a difference, which the citations show. You probably have never visited an SSPX Mass Center then nor attended any conferences of the SSPX. The difference between how those who are members of SSPX parishes versus those who attend the Novus Ordo is very noticeable.[1] There is a reason that the SSPX tells its members to avoid attending Novus Ordo churches.[2] If this group wasn't very different from the mainstream, SSPX clerics wouldn't be giving these admonitions. desmay (talk) 21:33, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
Rank in size "if it were canonical"
[edit]Per WP:ABOUTSELF this claim is sourced to the WP:PRIMARY SSPX mouthpiece. It is a pointless claim; since SSPX is not canonically regular, they do not hold this distinction of size. Therefore it is inappropriate to place such a claim in the article. Apples should be measured against apples, not oranges. Elizium23 (talk) 20:22, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
- Disagree. A counterfactual can be a striking way of making a point. Example: "If ex-Catholics constituted a denomination, it would be the second largest denomination in the US." MDJH (talk) 03:39, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
Relative size of SSPX
[edit]This article has 2 different claims about the relative size of the SSPX. The last sentence of the first paragraph of the lede says: “In July 2022, the Society reached over 700 priestly members; following the Jesuits, Franciscans, Benedictines, and Augustinians, the SSPX would be the fifth largest religious congregation of ordained priests among its professed members.” The last sentence of the section entitled “SSPX today” says: “If the society's canonical situation were to be regularized, it would be the Church's 4th largest society of apostolic life (similar to a religious order, but without vows), according to the three criteria published annually in Annuario Pontificio.”
There are a number of problems with these claims:
1. The lede speaks of “the fifth largest religious congregation of ordained priests”, and “SSPX today” of the “4th largest society of apostolic life”. While the average person doesn't distinguish between kinds of “religious orders”, canon law distinguishes between institutes of consecrated life (where priests take vows) and societies of apostolic life (where priests live communally without vows). The lede seems to be talking about both kinds with its generic reference to “religious congregations”. If so, the claim is clearly false, since there are many institutes of consecrated life with more than 700 priests other than the 4 mentioned in the lede. Think Salesians of St John Bosco, Dominicans, Redemptorists, Oblates of Mary Immaculate, Holy Ghost Fathers, Society of the Divine Word. The claim in “SSPX today” is more plausible since it is limited to societies of apostolic life.
2. Even if the claim in the lede was amended to limit it to societies of apostolic life, there would still be the discrepancy between “fourth largest” and “fifth largest”.
3. Both claims seem to be supported by a footnote, but when examined closely, neither footnote turns out to be about the size of the SSPX compared to other orders of priests. In other words, no evidence is offered in support of either claim. MDJH (talk) 03:33, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
- Correct; there is no support at all for these claims; I've removed them. Elizium23 (talk) 03:53, 22 July 2022 (UTC)