Talk:Transgender

RE: Two-Spirit

Rather than re-visit an older discussion that hasn't seen activity in a month, I'm opening a new topic to suggest re-adding a phrase similar to what was removed. "Some two-spirit people may also identify as transgender." The source originally used can still be discarded; better sources appear to exist, including a source cited in, and obtained from, the Two-Spirit page, a document from the Tribal Law and Policy Institute, and the Indian Health Service. An additional source can also be found the National Domestic Violence Hotline website.

Input is welcome. King keudo (talk) 22:37, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

how can vatican's guidelines be dated in the future?

> Dated October 31, 2024

is this supposed to be 2023? 86.127.80.188 (talk) 13:27, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Yes. Exactly that. I've fixed it. --DanielRigal (talk) 14:07, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Ga 174.103.242.116 (talk) 09:10, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

"Transgenderism" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Transgenderism has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 March 9 § Transgenderism until a consensus is reached. Raladic (talk) 03:20, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

The word transgenderism

This falls foul of WP:NOTFORUM as it has nothing to do with improving the article.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Okay... this bothers me so much that I just have to have to make a thread about it. I wrote the article ICD-11, which includes a section about Gender incongruence. In it, I used the term transgenderism. It was removed by User:Raladic, because it was supposedly an insult!! They even nominated the transgenderism redirect (see above), pointing out that some idiots used that word to claim that transgenderism is an ideology, instead of an inborn condition. And that's why no one should use that word. What kind of nonsense is this?! So just because a few alt-right bozos are unable to understand gender, we should not use this word, because *they* said so?? Transgenderism is an -ism. Isms don't just refer to ideologies, but to phenomena in general (journalism, realism, recidivism), including scientific phenomena (magnetism, Darwinism, atavism). From an etymological viewpoint, there is nothing inherently insulting about the word transgenderism. In itself, it is a neutral, general-purpose term for all things related to being transgender. You can throw in all the sources that say otherwise, but those people are WRONG! Thus, User:Raladic is also wrong for calling it a slur, because it's not. Thanks for reading. - Manifestation (talk) 10:34, 12 March 2024 (UTC) Like I mentioned in the RfD discussion, this is a descriptivism vs prescriptivism argument-- you cannot control how other people use and perceive language. No, it does not matter how wrong the usage is. No, it does not matter if it doesn't make sense from an etymological perspective. No, it does not matter how wrong it feels that this is an insult, to you. You don't get to make executive decisions on how all English-speakers who care one way or the other about transgender people, use or perceive a word. Also... frankly, trying to reclaim a word being used as a slur against a group you're not a part of is uh. I'll put it as, really bad form? (Which is why it frankly doubly doesn't matter that you don't think it sounds like an insult, because... you're not part of the group being insulted.) And if I might add? The -ism part is WHY it's a slur. It's painting being transgender as this political position or strange phenomenon, something that can be fought against and opposed, instead of a state of being. 𝔏𝔲𝔫𝔞𝔪𝔞𝔫𝔫🌙🌙🌙 𝔗𝔥𝔢 𝔐𝔬𝔬𝔬𝔬𝔬𝔫𝔦𝔢𝔰𝔱 (talk) 11:03, 12 March 2024 (UTC) "You cannot control how people perceive stuff." – Irrelevant argument. "You may not speak, because you're not part of the group." – Bad argument; ever heard of allies? "An -ism implies a political position or strange phenomenon." – No it doesn't; e.g. magnetism, dichroism. - Manifestation (talk) 11:27, 12 March 2024 (UTC) I fail to see how pointing out that you're being a prescriptivist, and that in most scenarios prescriptivism is wrong (and why it's wrong), is irrelevant. Slurs are made and die on the back of connotation, not denotation-- which is where slurs like fruitcake, fairy, negro, and trap come from. Denotatively, none of those words have ANYTHING to do with the minorities that they are slurs for-- they denote a dessert, a magical creature, the Spanish word for the color black, and a device used to ensnare, respectively. Connotatively, however, they are all slurs against minorities, all of them having different origins, from referring to gay men as soft and feminine, to alluding to African-American slavery, to accusations that crossdressing gay men and/or trans women predate on clueless straight men. This, is no different. 𝔏𝔲𝔫𝔞𝔪𝔞𝔫𝔫🌙🌙🌙 𝔗𝔥𝔢 𝔐𝔬𝔬𝔬𝔬𝔬𝔫𝔦𝔢𝔰𝔱 (talk) 11:41, 12 March 2024 (UTC) @Manifestation: I see from your profile that you are from the Netherlands. Is it possible the word transgenderism is used or viewed differently there than in other countries? Speaking as a trans person who is a US-American and native English speaker, I agree with @Lunamann's take on this issue. Funcrunch (talk) 14:22, 12 March 2024 (UTC) It is not supposedly, but objectively so. The World Professional Association for Transgender Health renamed the International Journal of Transgender Health because the term is not appropriately used nowadays. Just because you are trying to use descriptivist language doesn’t make a word any less offensive if it has been claimed as a slur, just like many other slurs, they are at face value, words, but when they get the connotation of being used in a way to slur a group, we stop using the terms, or in some cases they may or may not be reclaimed at a later time in history, such as the word queer which has been largely reclaimed. I would also personally like to point out that you can not tell an affected group that a term used against them is not a slur if they have perceived said term being used as a slur against them. Especially not when you then try to claim to be an ally as you have above, an ally supports people, which in this case would be to support us in having the term appropriately tagged as a non-neutral term and largely avoided unless it discusses the context of the word, such as being done in Transgender#Terminology. Raladic (talk) 15:10, 12 March 2024 (UTC) Language is fluid, and the meaning of words changes over time. While it is true that at one point in time transgenderism was a neutral term, in the past five to ten years it has become a non-neutral term. Julia Serano wrote about the history of the term a little over a year ago, how it was formerly used in a neutral manner, and how since then its definition has been warped to mean something different. In contemporary usage the term is almost universally used by members of the anti-gender movement and those sympathetic to their view to try and cast trans people as an ideological movement. This is why you'll often see statements from groups like CPAC saying things like how "for the good of society ... transgenderism must be eradicated from public life entirely". Sideswipe9th (talk) 17:52, 12 March 2024 (UTC) @Funcrunch: Not that I know of. @Raladic: Just because I'm an ally doesn't mean I agree with everything you write. @Everyone: Context is everything. Slurs can also be used in a friendly context, or they can be reclaimed. I used the word transgenderism in a neutral, non-hostile context in the ICD-11 article (since removed). There's nothing wrong with that, and there's nothing wrong with the word itself. All these irrational jerks trying to bend definitions, like they did to woke, socialism, and globalism. And now they're doing the same to transgenderism. Why would we accept this? - Manifestation (talk) 18:41, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 7 May 2024

The part of some identifying as transexual is depreciated and redundant. Transsexual was replaced by transgender to remove sexual annotation that Gender Identity relates to sexual orientation. It has been depreciated as a derogatory term: similar to Asperger's being replaced with ASD in the DSM5 because if the negative history for it as well. StonyPonyAmy (talk) 00:37, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

A reliable source would be needed for such a change (also, edit requests should include an exact change). Its true that broadly describing trans people, transness, or medical transition as transsexual(s/ism) has largely fallen out of favor, but this sentence is about the minority of trans people (mostly older people, or subscribers to transmedicalism) who identify with the term as an individual identity label. –RoxySaunders 🏳️‍⚧️ (💬 • 📝) 01:47, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Counterpoint: Buck Angel EvergreenFir (talk) 05:03, 7 May 2024 (UTC)