User talk:Jimbo Wales

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(Manual archive list)

In review

(1) Drama-monger Lightbreather does the I-quit-I-quit-I-quit-Eric-made-me-do-it shimmy. (2) The I Hate Eric gang shakes. (3) Jimmy Wales pops in with a gratuitous comment about a guy he has tossed from this page rather than going to ArbCom and offering legitimate testimony against him. (4) Eric, who never once in his entire fucking life failed to take the bait, takes the bait. (5) The I Hate Eric chorus pokes him with a stick. (6) Jimmy chips some more. (7) Eric blows his top and immolates himself. Very nice work building an encyclopedia, all of you!!! —Tim Davenport /// Carrite (talk) 23:47, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

On the bright side, User:Chillum had the good sense to not make it an indefinite block, so we have a better chance of avoiding the long AN/I thread, the drama and "popcorn" comments by onlookers, the early unblock by a supporting admin, more drama over that, a couple admin retirements, etc. ~Adjwilley (talk) 00:27, 15 October 2014 (UTC)
I heard popcorn? 'Tis the season, again, pictured, - again? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:34, 15 October 2014 (UTC)
Let's hope. Someone find some wood.--v/r - TP 01:16, 15 October 2014 (UTC)
I had to step away from that discussion myself--and take the Editor Retention page off my watchlist. —Neotarf (talk) 00:32, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm saddened, that my keep calm advice (at Retention) to fellow editors, hasn't been heeded :( GoodDay (talk) 01:23, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Now we have evidence that Lightbreather, Eric Corbett and Jimbo Wales are fallible human beings instead of bots. Does this result in megabytes of ranting and raving, or thoughtful de-escalation? I hope for the second option, but I am an eternal optimist. That means that I am destined to be disappointed quite often. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 05:13, 15 October 2014 (UTC)
Jim, this entire thing was a provocation from start to finish. The threat to Wikipedia isn't a couple people with short tempers who habitually use rude language, the threat to Wikipedia are the crop of gameplayers who are here for theatrics and controversy rather than to build an encyclopedia. Carrite (talk) 14:37, 15 October 2014 (UTC)
Perhaps the threats aren't mutually exclusive... Gaijin42 (talk) 14:41, 15 October 2014 (UTC)
Could someone provide a short summary of what this is all about for those who don't follow wikipolitics? -mattbuck (Talk) 15:56, 15 October 2014 (UTC)
Mattbuck Do the value of contributions from high-content editors outweigh any problems caused by their incivility. The rest is a lot of counter accusations of who is actually incivil, who should be banned (Largely Eric Corbett and some others in the "incivil" side, with others (mainly those accused on the first part) saying Jimbo and "drama admins" should be banned.) and if the accusations of incivility are themselves more disruptive than the original incivility. Gaijin42 (talk) 16:16, 15 October 2014 (UTC)
Editors were offended by "bad words" being used in various discussions. Some people defended the use of those "bad words", others argued that in the context they weren't actually "bad", still others claimed that part of the "problem" was in the level of offense taken by their use. Then various formal procedures ensued (ANIs, ARBCOM, etc.) and then some of the offended parties began to edit policy pages with little or no effect. There are/were IMO quite lofty and well meaning intentions to make an immensely diverse (culturally, grammatically, el. al.) community adhere to a fairly narrow and strict set of standards. There continues to be discussion as to if (not what kind of) a solution exists. My 2 cents... --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (Talk) ☮ღ☺ 02:48, 17 October 2014 (UTC)
Oh, don't give the poor guy this horseshit. Nobody was offended by "bad words"—there's no rule against them. It all has to do with the persistent, aggressive way in which said editor uses such words. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 05:02, 17 October 2014 (UTC)
Fair enough... So in your assessment of "the persistent, aggressive way in which said editor uses such words", is how the reader interprets these words part of this equation or is it entirely based on the perceived intent behind the use of the words? Communication is a bi-directional process, otherwise is just a speech... :) --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (Talk) ☮ღ☺ 17:48, 17 October 2014 (UTC)
Don't play this game. We're not talking in the abstract about "bad words", and we're not talking about words that have been misinterpreted. We're talking about words used with clear intent to attack and intimidate—they have been cited and linked to ad nauseam all over this page. Mattbuck sums up the situation well—"do the attacks or the content contributions carry more weight?" You're "summary" is dodging and obfuscation. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 21:26, 17 October 2014 (UTC)
Point taken... And I agree that there are things said, to use your phrase, "with clear intent to attack and intimidate". I'm just trying to make the point that if there is less reaction (in terms of the vitriol, hyperbole, and exhaustive rhetoric and posturing) that the Editors using them will have less of an effect on this site and its Editor community at large. How we encourage people to be "less offended" and more tolerant, but not to the point of complacency; I haven't a clue. But I feel it needs to be discussed as part of the solution to this issue. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (Talk) ☮ღ☺ 21:30, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
You see, this is where Eric and his followers have obfuscated the issues: we're supposed to encourage people to be "less offended" by someone who editwars with you while leaving edit comments laden with intimidating attacks? It's one thing to say "sticks and stones", another when the editor in question is ruthlessly trying to obliterate your work and intimidate you into staying away—which is the point of Eric's (very typical) "I've told you once, I won't tell you again". No swearing, even, but there you have all the aggression and attempted intimidation that people are talking about, all the while fucking up the article with his ignorance, and then draining people's time, patience, and energy with yet another marathon "discussion" in which he simply refuses to accept the presented facts, and then divas off when even his talkpage stalkers won't back him up. Even that wasn't enough for him—he continued to trash me behind my back on his talk page, and leave "you're the cunt" messages on the talk pages of other editors. So tell me, Scalhotrod, how encouraging people to be "less offended" would have made this a better situation?
I have no idea whatsoever how anyone being "less offended" would have made this situation better. But I do believe that words only have the power over us that we allow them to. I have found that quite often that a verbal bully can be shut down simply by ignoring them. That said, your dif is a perfect example of what I have come to accept is just not worth being or getting upset about, whether its done by Eric or anyone else. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (Talk) ☮ღ☺ 00:09, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
@Scalhotrod: I'm perplexed as to why you think the situation had anything to do with the "power of words"—are you misinterpreting this as me being upset over a pissy edit summary? Did you look at the "discussion"? Nobody was talking about the edit summary. It was Eric's behaviour—editwarring even after provided with RSes showing he was empirically wrong, and he wasn't about to give up. You're suggesting I should just ignore his persistent disruption to an article I was in the middle of copyediting? Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 00:41, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
I was not reading into or digging any more than the examples you have provided. If I need to review the Talk page to get a better idea, then I will review it. But if you are even partially upset by his editing while you were as well, I have no sympathy for circumstances like that when there are so many other options to choose. If fact when I review the Talk page for that article, it looks like the most egregious thing Eric has done has been to refrain from communicating. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (Talk) ☮ღ☺ 02:00, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
I'm sorry, you'll have to explain again—I've read this over five times, and all I see is one long non sequitur. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 04:10, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
Hence why this drama keeps going. Regards, --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (Talk) ☮ღ☺ 04:17, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
Right, right, right—because it's everyone else who's the problem, and evidence to the contrary will just be ignored.. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 04:33, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
Curly Turkey, shame on you, you get my point perfectly...! :) Brilliantly put! No one accepts responsibility for their actions and constantly blame others. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (Talk) ☮ღ☺ 19:21, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
Okay, thanks for the practical advice—next time we'll all just not blame anybody, and our problems will trot away on a glittering pony. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 23:16, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
I was getting the impression that you were here to sake something substantive, but if you just wanted to vent, that's OK too. Take care, --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (Talk) ☮ღ☺ 19:03, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
No, of course I'm here to debunk the meme that Eric is being scapegoated for his language rather than his disruptive behaviour, as I made clear with my first reply to your "summary". The spinning obviously will not abate. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 22:55, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── My apologies for not appreciating your eloquence, but that's not what I got from your comment. But hey, that's part of why this mess is unfolding, misunderstood communication. And for the record, I'm not defending Eric, he's perfectly capable of that. But back to my original point, in the same way that any Editor has the responsibility to be civil towards others, the receiving party has the responsibility to not make it into something its not meant or intended to be. That seems simple enough... --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (Talk) ☮ღ☺ 16:37, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

"misunderstood communication"—and so we're back on this treadmill ... Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 23:05, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
As you seem to mean it, "hamster wheel" is probably a better analogy. But you're now helping to prove my point. You only wish to engage in conversation on your terms and not in the spirit of true communication. You're actually part of the problem that you revile so much. --SChotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (Talk) ☮ღ☺ 17:32, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
So you've whipped out "You only wish to engage in conversation on your terms"— which anyone could apply to anyone regardless of context. Your "summary" was obfuscation, and your "summary" my evidence that the issue isn't about the "language" or "misunderstanding" is that it's about "power of words" or "misunderstanding". I'm not getting the feeling that "the spirit of communication" is what's driving you to respond here. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 22:03, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
OK :) --SChotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (Talk) ☮ღ☺ 02:43, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

This is why I chose to speak up here—Eric's fans have latched onto the whole "cunt" thing, and have deflected the discussion to paint the situation as Eric being "scapegoated" over his dirty mouth. He's no scapegoat, and it's not his cussing per se that's getting people worked up—it's his persistent and intentionally aggressive disruption. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 12:23, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
As for Eric specifically, it is my personal opinion that he should be judged by his peers. In this particular case I would have to say that it is at minimum other Editors that have been on the site for as long (or longer) than he and those with a comparable edit count. The Feature Article accomplishments and accolades are a nice achievement, but probably should not be taken into consideration. My 2 cents... --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (Talk) ☮ღ☺ 00:09, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
(arbitrary break)
  • I think it is high time our beloved founder step away from commenting on Wikipedia and Wikipedia editors and leave opinions to the masses. Are you so naive as to think that if you, the founder of Wikipedia and a valued opinionater, made a passing remark critical of Eric Corbett, that it would go unnoticed? The Hivemind takes you word as law, Jimmy. Your opinions are worth more than anyone here, so do not be careless with words. KonveyorBelt 22:13, 15 October 2014 (UTC)
User:Konveyor Belt Don't you think that's why Jimbo did it, it's a tactic designed to poison the well. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 15:54, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
I don't have any idea what you are talking about. It was an honest remark, surprisingly well received by the audience. "A tactic designed to poison the well" is meaningless in this context.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 20:42, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
Well if it was on purpose, then he's a fucking asshole and really needs to leave. KonveyorBelt 19:13, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
The problem is all of the evidence is circumstantial here. Yes he mentioned "the annoying user" not an annoying user which would indicate that it is someone in particular. It is sort of like saying "Here today we examine the human species" as opposed to "Here today we examine a human..." What Jimbo is saying is broad and refers to all users that have the annoying user mentality in common. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 02:09, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
Really? Because I think Jimbo knows exactly what he's doing and who he's referring to. KonveyorBelt 15:18, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
@Konveyor Belt: You have nothing to prove it though so what is the use going on like you do? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 20:01, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
For the record, I think there are a great many annoying users who, through toxic behavior, damage the encyclopedia by driving away people who create good content, and prevent newbies from ever learning to shine. In my remarks at Wikimania, I did not have any specific user in mind, but I did have several examples in mind. I think a surgical and fast removal of about 10 people from English Wikipedia would result in a renaissance.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 20:42, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
I figured that you weren't targeting one user in particular but in fact were making a broad statement. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 20:45, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
@Jimbo Wales, Let me preface this by saying, I personally value the opinions of founders greatly. I have had the great fortune to know several such as Bill Hanna and Joe Barbera along with working for Chuck Geschke and John Warnock of Adobe Systems. In chatting with these people found their insights into their companies and industry rather amazing.
That said, I have to ask... Just 10? That's it, nothing else but the removal of 10 User accounts from this system would result in, to use your term, a renaissance? --SChotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (Talk) ☮ღ☺ 22:36, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
It might work, but only if one of those ten is Jimbo himself. Eric Corbett 22:50, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
'Just 10? Sure - and all their friends and camp followers who enjoy watching the fun disruption and stirring up more. And then another couple thousand would get the message and improve their behavior. Or just not end up responding to all the blinking provocations, including me :-) Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 02:06, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── and all their friends Someday, (perhaps soon), you will have to learn that casting aspersions against editors and accusing them of being some sort of "anti-civility cabal" just won't fly. KonveyorBelt 17:24, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

We can only hope, but somehow I am not hopeful... Carrite (talk) 20:05, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

A fork?

Hey Jimmy, you know I'm not one to ask easy questions, so here's a doozy for you. In the part of your speech where you mention that Wikipedia would benefit in the long run if editors who refuse to show respect for others (and, FWIW, I agree with others here that 10 is a very optimistic figure), you mention that they could publish their content elsewhere under Creative Commons. That makes me wonder how you feel about the possibility of content going in the opposite direction, along with some of the more dissatisfied editors. In other words, can you see a scenario where a fork might actually benefit Wikipedia? -wʃʃʍ- 07:27, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for that suggestion wʃʃʍ. Forking the serious content elsewhere seems like an excellent idea. It would free Wikipedia from the serious content builders so it can concentrate on its core business, providing a home to the loving and morally ambitious social networkers. --Epipelagic (talk) 07:49, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
Epipelagic, please stop misrepresenting my views. Indeed, please stop posting to my talk page at all.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:00, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
Jimbo has actually suggested this several times but he's aimed in the "wrong" direction. Those who are more concerned with civility and other meta issues are the ones who should fork because the primary purpose of this project and of the WMF is that of education/dissemination of knowledge. Anything else is pretty much a sideshow.
FWIW, this very page is in the wrong place also. Given issues of systemic bias and (rightly or wrongly) the global nature of Jimbo's persona, this thing should be at Meta if it must exist anywhere. - Sitush (talk) 07:41, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
Since when has the "the primary purpose of this project and of the WMF" been "that of education/dissemination of knowledge". Jimbo doesn't seem to think so. Nor do many Wikipedia admins. Is there any mission statement which gives some direction to Wikipedia and its administration? Is there anything that might parallel a Wikipedia constitution, which gives some direction as to whether content builders might expect some dignity or rights. I don't think so. All we have is Jimbo's direction that it is the serious committed content builders that are the central source of all that is bad on Wikipedia. --Epipelagic (talk) 08:00, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
"All we have is Jimbo's direction that it is the serious committed content builders that are the central source of all that is bad on Wikipedia." is a complete and utter lie. It bears no resemblance to my views whatsoever. Please stop repeating such, and please stay off my talk page.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:01, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Contributing to Wikipedia? Patrol forty (talk) 16:04, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
That is just a collection of thoughts put together largely by one editor, and is neither a Wikipedia policy nor a guideline. --Epipelagic (talk) 17:31, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
It's an "information page that describes communal consensus". It's not a policy or guideline, but it doesn't appear to me to contradict any of them. So, the question is, which part of it do you think doesn't have wide support? Or which policy or guideline do you think it contradicts? If the answer is none, then I congratulate that one editor on doing such a good job of putting together something that seems to me to be every bit as good a constitution as anything else I've come across so far. Patrol forty (talk) 17:56, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
An idea has recently gained traction at Wikipediocracy that this whole "knowledge" thing is more or less incidental to the actual function of WMF which has evolved. It is argued that WMF is in actual fact a software and grant-making operation. I'm not entirely sure I buy into that, but it does seem that the software tail has been wagging the content dog of late. Content is "done enough" for San Francisco and rather than being up to the challenge of attracting the expert contributors that will make articles 4,500,001 to 9,000,000 possible, the obsession of "the center" is page views and donation numbers and software products. The rift between those whose hobby is generating content and those whose careers involve perfecting the platform is clearly growing. San Francisco needs to figure out how to expand its mission to include improvement of content, something they now seem to look down their nose at. Carrite (talk) 15:45, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
Some unwanted "features" shoved onto the communities recently, or in the pipeline without any wanting for them, seem to make exactly that point. Especially with the shoving of MV down the throats of the bigger communities against their will, the main obstacle, clear from the beginning, that this piece of software was not suitable to read all needed (and that's 95%) information about licenses, author, legend, all there readable by humans, but not by that silly piece of bling, was done nothing about, the guys'n'gals in SF didn't deign to either move into real editing the templates and file pages to suit their pet-project, or program it to read all this stuff. No, they just ignored it and used force to implement it, and then, only after the big uproar, started to listen to it's customers, and tried to make good by starting far too late some meta-data-clean-up, and probably hope for the volunteers to sweep up after they left the mess and didn't care about the consequences. --♫ Sänger - Talk - superputsch must go 16:05, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for the replies. These are good cases in point for what I'm getting at. I fundamentally disagree with the notion that issues Jimmy brought up in his speech shouldn't be- or aren't after looking at the ToU that every user of the English Wikipedia has agreed to- included in our community's core values. To me, that's like saying that Wikipedia is all about the content and not at all about the community. Well, the content is free for the taking. If you think that you'd do better without having to worry about expectations that you show respect to others, then why not fork it and leave the peace and love crowd to fend for themselves?
Also, I've heard the argument that "it's the other guy that should have to fork." I don't get it. If you mean that the peaceniks should have to find new servers and host on a different domain, that's not up to you or I or even Jimmy to decide. That's the WMF's call. I'm sure you're welcome to try convincing them to go with your flavor of the project. -wʃʃʍ- 08:22, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
Duh? Wikpedia should be pretty much all about the content. What the heck is an encyclopaedia without content? - Sitush (talk) 08:27, 23 October 20 (UTC)
  • I've read some daft things on this page, but this truly takes the biscuit. What you're saying is that now the content editors have written the encyclopedia to a half-decent standard they can now depart and leave the butterflies to run the show and take the the credit. To coin a vernacular English saying: "In your dreams Sunshine." Giano (talk) 08:31, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
Well, there are a lot of things I don't get on the first try, so please have some patience with me. I'm sure you've seen the figures for declining active editors. You might even be aware that there are particularly few female editors in the mix. Do you know that responses like "Duh?" and characterizations like "daft" make an environment more unpleasant for most humans? Hostile work environments are even less welcoming to women than men, if you believe the studies. So, when all the editors have been run off except those who think showing respect for people isn't necessary because it sucks to be around people who treat them like this, wouldn't you essentially have a project all to yourselves anyways? Why waste your time offending people when you could simply fork now? You're edits here are all marked; you get full credit for your article edits + extra credit for comments like these. Best. -wʃʃʍ- 09:22, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
The English-language Wikipedia has matured. Where once people used to be able to take easy options such as copy/pasting public domain content, now they are expected generally to be a bit more conscientious and, frankly, I suspect that there are a lot less people in the world who are willing to go that extra yard than simply to copy/paste etc. Add to that the fact that the most significant enduring topics for the English-speaking world have most likely been created already and you might get some sort of indicator regarding participation levels that is at least as significant as all this civility stuff. But without proper independently-funded and professionally-driven studies that specifically relate to the Wikipedia experience, all of these conjectures are just a never-ending circus filled with hot air. Too many participants on this page seek drama and do bugger all content work: the respect should go to those who do, not those who prattle. - Sitush (talk) 09:33, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
OK, I'm confused again. You say that "too many participants on this page seek drama." But phrases like "bugger all" and words such as "prattle" don't do anything to decrease drama here or anywhere else. What am I missing, Sitush? -wʃʃʍ- 11:14, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
  • When I started writing here, almost ten years ago, one could knock out a FA in a couple of days - write it on personal knowledge and opinion and then, when finished, add a list of reference books which may of may not have supported the text's accuracy. Today, quite rightly, writing a a short stubby page to the accepted standard can take hours and hours of dedicated research. Thus, to edit here today, requires a fairly high standard of education and personal dedication and no small amount of spare time; that is why contributing editors have declined. Anyone, who has ever spent time in academics' common room will be well aware that such people frequently live (and often thrive) in an atmosphere of internal politics, intrigue and petty vendettas - it's the nature of the beast. This is probably why the content editors here feel they are best qualified to comment and become very frustrated by the less content orientated hobby horses of the non=content editors. Those who feel the encyclopedia is almost complete and doesn't need its dedicated content editors are quite wrong - what is wrong, is that the non-content editors appear to hold the balance of power, and don't seem to support those writing content. Now, you may feel that is the content editors problem and they should solve it. However, problems should be solved by those at the top, but here: those at the top seem only concerned with the more superficial issues and surrounding themselves with a support cast of butterflies. Finally, on the subject of women: Let's not forget that Jimbo first coined his "toxic" adjective to describe one of the projects foremost and longest serving female editors - despite that insult she still edits here today - so perhaps women are tougher than some of you think. Problems can only be solved from the top [citation needed], and that is Wikipedia's real problem. Giano (talk) 11:00, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
Sorry, Giano. Couldn't resist. :-) -wʃʃʍ- 11:18, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
  • Giano is absolutely right. The quality control and required standard of Featured Articles has got too high for me, I've got close a few times but I don't have the time and availability to address all the issues that will fall out of a FA review, which requires a huge amount of research, expert knowledge on the topic, and impeccable standards of English comparable with professional journalists and writers. I'm sure I could eventually do it given one or two month's hard graft, but I just don't have the stamina to do it. However, most articles are not even close to FAs. I believe the GA is a good "halfway house" standard, which I read as "this isn't bad for free and it'll get you most of the way to understanding the topic" and is within the capability of the average editor, who after some time should be able to get an article to that status within a week, given the right sources and research. Sadly, most articles are not even close, many lack a cohesive narrative, some have information jumbled up, some have a totally skewed POV, some contain subtle vandalism that can take years to spot. Without a dedicated leadership or at least a competent caretaker, articles will wither, die and became targets to laugh at. This is our real problem, not the ANI drama whores. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 12:02, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
I think a fork is a great idea, but as Sitush says, it has to be in the right direction. Eric Corbett 11:28, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
@ wʃʃʍ, forking would be a complete disaster, for reasons which should be obvious. It's taken this long and required alot of cajoling, chiding and massaging to build an auditing process (for GA, FA and DYK) to give some semblance of an article improvement production line. It barely has critical mass, and dividing it in two would result in the atrophy of both. Wikipedia is currently navigating a gulf towards credibility and requires all hands on deck. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:10, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
I don't like to talk about it (because it gets certain drama whores' knickers in a twist) but in 2009 a group of us did set up our own Wiki to directly compete with Wikipedia on that subject matter, and we've done alright out of it, though not spectacularly due to the general lack of interest in the subject matter and confusion over "those funny curly brace thingies" that wikis suffer from generally. It is doable, but you need a seriously unloved part of WP, something that would never have any reliable sources to get anywhere (such as old rock bootlegs) or the stuff that appeals to great numbers of young while middle class single males (Simpsons?), to be able to pull it off. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 12:12, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Two English Wikipedias? My life is stressful enough with the one we got ;) GoodDay (talk) 12:47, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

So Giano admitted the real reason the rude people don't want to leave- they want credit. Sounds childish really. "Oh, please don't kick me out because I use the word c*nt and call people retarded (and much worse), because I want everyone in the world to know how much I edited Wikipedia and brought light unto the nations and educated the masses (because only I know how to use Google to find information)!". It is sad and pathetic that rude people are that egotistical.Camelbinky (talk) 14:52, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
Is this the sort of thing you have in mind Camelbinky? --Epipelagic (talk) 17:24, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
  • I won't dignify Camelbinky's view of me above with a detailed response. However, if he can find a diff of me using the C-word against another editor here, I will be interested to see it. Giano (talk) 15:43, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
  • This is certainly some fantastically ironic trolling, Camelbinky, though I'm quite sure the irony is lost on you. LHMask me a question 15:53, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
I especially liked the unintended irony of Camelbinky's edit summary for the above: "egotistical, sad, and pathetic are the rude and obnoxious." — Somehow I rather doubt that is an expression of the attitude of peace, love, forgiveness, joy, hugs, and cooperation that Jimmy Wales is shooting for... Carrite (talk) 16:10, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia is nowhere near finished - that much is obvious, whether you're someone who knows a lot about a particular subject and then reviews it here, or whether you just attempt to look something up every now and then on something you know nothing about. There's still a lot of work to do, so If Mr Wales fails in his attempt to rectify the obvious governance failures affecting the site today, he should give serious consideration to creating a new, more morally ambitious version of Wikipedia.

Should the end-times come to pass, should the 'useful' editors and their administrator advocates trying to draw fallacious distinctions between the 'content builders' and all the other assholes somehow succeed, if Eric does indeed get elected the Chairman of Ihardlythinkso's proposed group of "The top 10 content contributors" and start to shape this version of Wikipedia to operate along his preferred interaction model (which most of his advocates seem to think he would have no trouble achieving), then I can't see how Mr Wales would have any other option (assuming he still wants to build an encyclopedia).

While some ordinary volunteers might for a time find some sort of satisfaction in the freedom to express your true feelings in Ericpedia, once they realise they've voluntarily signed up for the online version of Lord of the Flies or Animal Farm, unless they are actually conflict junkies, they'll soon exercise their right to leave, and will presumably return to the real Wikipedia, the one Mr Wales would have started afresh, and would already be thriving through the contributions of all the editors here who are clearly contributing in spite of the toxic atmosphere. Since he would be starting it from scratch, getting the governance model right from the outset be easy. As long as he didn't try to change anything else in the reboot, I can't see how it could possibly fail. Patrol forty (talk) 16:35, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Jimbo has no more of a mandate to rectify anything than you or I do. Did you vote for him? Neither does he own the Wikipedia brand name, so his fork would have to be called something like Civilpedia. Which would end up just as big a flop as Nupedia did. Eric Corbett 16:46, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
Who does own the Wikipedia brand name? If it is anyone or anything that freely associates itself with the ideas and values of those who would very much like Mr Wales to stop speaking out on this issue, I'd be extremely surprised. I'd imagine it's more likely that the co-option of the brand by those he's criticising is being tolerated, a tolerance which would surely come to an abrupt end in the scenario suggested in here. I never voted for anyone, but as mandates go, Wikipedia:Contributing to Wikipedia is a pretty strong one. If the political analogy is to hold true, it's for the editors who seek to go against it, and the administrators who seek to undermine it, to demonstrate they have a mandate. Patrol forty (talk) 17:05, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
Jimbo is just as free to express his opinion as anyone else, but his opinions carry no more weight than anyone else's. Eric Corbett 17:24, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
His opinions carry all the weight of someone who has presented a cogent argument that there is an existential threat to the project that he founded and is still the most public face of. His opponents carry all the weight you would expect, given the nature and intent of their responses. Patrol forty (talk) 17:57, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
That'll be no weight at all then. Eric Corbett 18:06, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
Correct, Eric! --Demiurge1000 (talk) 18:16, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
As usual you misrepresent hysterical propaganda as "cogent argument." Quote a single cogent argument from Wales supporting the otherwise vacuous claim that the very existence of the project he co-founded is under threat from, say, Eric Corbett. Writegeist (talk) 18:45, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
How about "My concern is for the principle at stake: do we allow abusive editors to insult and belittle people, if their content contributions are good enough? My position is this: we should not because that's a false bargain. Such editors cause great harm to the content of the encyclopedia by driving away good contributors and newbies not just through their own insults, but through the general decline in community good will that they bring about" (11:12, 18 October 2014). Patrol forty (talk) 18:54, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
Which proves my point. Writegeist (talk) 19:21, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
No, you've simply re-asserted it. Proving it is an entirely different kettle of fish. Haven't we been down this road before, with the whole evidence/argument issue? Patrol forty (talk) 20:00, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
Don't panic. The project is a continiously evolving entity :) GoodDay (talk) 16:59, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
So, now they want to say that some how Wikipedia/the WMF is a democracy or at least a representative democracy...? Strange. Where does this concept come from that people have to some how have their voice/vote heard or recorded some place for some thing to be legitimate? Mr. Wales created Wikipedia, you do not need to have voted for him for anything, you didn't create squat. If you are an employee of GE do you have to vote for Mr. Immelt in order for him to have had legitimacy for deciding to sell the plastics division, NBC/Universal, or the appliances division? No, and in a proper analogy you are closer to being a consumer of GE products than as an employee; and no where close to being a share holder who at least then does have a voice and vote towards his legitimacy, however small it may be. To properly summarize your constant point in every discussion I believe you should start putting the edit summary to say "If I'm not special on Wikipedia no one else is either, or if someone is special they shouldn't be because no one should be more special than me, because I do great things here" because that summarizes every comment you make.Camelbinky (talk) 17:53, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
  • You want the credit? You want to be paid for your work? Get a paying job as an editor. Wikipedia does not need to be split if it does though yes I approve of sending all of the constantly rude users there. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 18:09, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
I note your user page is full of displayed barnstars - presumably you arranged them there? Giano (talk) 18:12, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
Copy and pasted actually from my talk-page over time, it isn't an uncommon thing to do. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 18:14, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
And by "rude" knowledge kid, I assume you mean truthful? Cassiantotalk 18:33, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
No I mean belittling editors so it drives them away and makes them not want to edit. I mean long term abuse that lasts for months that is directed towards many editors. Old saying "The straw that breaks the camel's back" Oh sure a person can handle one mistake and shake it off when someone says something but after awhile it wears down the person until they crack. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 18:40, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
Has it ever occurred to you that maybe that editor deserved a little bit of the truth? People such as yourself then misinterpret that truth as "incivility" Cassiantotalk 18:43, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
So you are saying that it is true that new editors are cunts and idiots because they make simple mistakes? Its like hitting a kid for doing something wrong rather than explaining why what they did was wrong. If you act aggressive people are going to want to stay away from you, or in some cases get upset. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 18:48, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
If that user behaves like a cunt, then they need to be told so. Cassiantotalk 18:55, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
What qualifies a user to fall into the category of "behaving like a cunt"? Do the users in question run off their mouths? Do they disrupt Wikipedia in a way that is going to cause the whole project to collapse? Or is it things like forgetting to add a comma in a sentence or asking for advice? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 19:00, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
Edit warring, POV pushing, and not listening to advice despite the informer AGF; you know, the usual kind of cuntish stuff that disrupts the project. Cassiantotalk 19:05, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
Those things should be reported, not commented on, by commenting on it you just make the problem worse. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 22:45, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
What's a cunt, by the way?Amanda Smalls 18:57, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
Cunt. KonveyorBelt 18:59, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
@Amanda Smalls: One of the worst things to call a female. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 19:02, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
Oh. Wow. I wish I'd never said that word now.Amanda Smalls 19:04, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
Just some advice if you don't know what a word means you are better off not using it until you do. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 19:06, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
I've never called anyone that vulgar word, I meant I wish I didn't type it.Amanda Smalls 19:07, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
Whats wrong with getting paid to edit? And come on, everyone gets slapped a few times in their childhood.Amanda Smalls 18:50, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
You are missing the point, the idea is to educate not to drive fear into the person or drive them away in this case. As for paid editing there is nothing wrong with that there are jobs out there that offer it. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 18:53, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
  • How did this thread go from "fork" to "cunt". I think we should get back to the topic; if that topic has finished, then let's all go about our business. Cassiantotalk 19:14, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
Wheeeeeewwwww, the comedy possibilities are endless. Write your own joke. Moving on. Carrite (talk) 20:13, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
"Fork" is obviously a misspelling. Writegeist (talk) 22:22, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

@Wllm: FWIW, a while ago I put up some thoughts (still very incomplete) at Meta:Usenetpedia for the permanent fragmentation of Wikipedia. However, the same idea could be implemented in miniature for just a few articles of interest, even using existing Usenet infrastructure and some quick and dirty approximations. Wnt (talk) 22:41, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

I suggest we have a fork where we can send all the trigger-happy admins and the folks who attack content-builders in the name of a community that does not even agree with them. Then the rest of us can actually get some work done without all this ridiculous arguing. Everyking (talk) 05:06, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

I would note that Cassianto has now been blocked, as far as I can tell, without warning, and not for the contempt for female editors that he has displayed here by dropping the c-bomb, but apparently for explaining a British word for masturbation--the "w-word"?--in the context of a user who displays a pornography user box. Go figure. —Neotarf (talk) 13:36, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Actually, as far as I can tell Cassianto was blocked for blatantly mocking another editor on his talk page. ~Adjwilley (talk) 02:46, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Blocked/banned users contributing via external sites

Hi Jimmy, quick question - you made a post (which I can't find now - I'm hoping it was you who made it, or I'm possibly going mad) about asking contributors who are unwelcome or who can't edit co-operatively at Wikipedia to consider writing on an external site, such as a blog or their own website. They would licence their work under the CC-BY licence and their content would then be checked and imported. I'm just wondering if you could repeat your comments (with any updates, where necessary). I'm specifically interested in your thoughts on using this approach as a way to keep blocked/banned users from breaching their sanctions and creating content on Wikipedia directly, allowing work which may have inherent problems to be checked. I've recently tried this (just once with a single user) and the response has been somewhat mixed, so before I or anybody else goes any further, some feedback from you would be appreciated. Thanks in advance. Nick (talk) 21:26, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

IMO, that seems really close to hitting WP:RS and WP:NOR issues (I mean, I've used my own external (and sourced!) writings within policy to adapt a Wikipedia page before, but I could see many (most?) users considering this like sourcing to a blog, which is typically not a reliable source). - Purplewowies (talk) 04:28, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
I fear you've misunderstood, an article is written, in line with our policies, on an external site, be it a blog, their own website, over at Wikia or another WMF site, such as Simple Wikipedia and then imported, much the same as we do at present with material from other language Wikipedias and other CC-BY licenced sources. Nick (talk) 10:09, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
When the article is written "in line with (en:Wikipedia) policies" it would have external references to reliable sources, these should be imported too (of course). The CC-BY type licenses also imply you'd attribute the imported article to where you found it (and its authors). I remember there being some guideline on how to do that part of the attribution correctly, I suppose at least by using the {{CCBYSASource}} template. The content should at all times (before, during, and after the import) be checked for conformity to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines (of course). --Francis Schonken (talk) 10:29, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
I do understand what you're trying to say, I'm just thinking that there are at least a few people, if not a lot of them, who might believe this could run afoul of policy. :P - Purplewowies (talk) 18:48, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
  • If a user is capable of writing good content, they should just be unblocked/unbanned. If they are so lacking in self-control that they can't participate without causing major ruckus, then they should remain blocked/banned. The proposed arrangement seems Rube Goldbergesque. Jehochman Talk 13:07, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
The problem seems to arise when both of your statements "a user is capable of writing good content" and "they are so lacking in self-control that they can't participate without causing major ruckus" are true. At the moment, these people are mostly allowed to edit here and the "ruckus" they cause is tolerated. Deli nk (talk) 14:04, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
Just send them over to citizendium LOL Nyth83 (talk) 15:38, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Daily Life

Hey Jimbo, What do you do everyday? Like what's your daily routine?Amanda Smalls 13:40, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

That's a good question Amanda. But you know, some people care about their privacy Face-wink.svg. Let's see what Jimbo has to say about it--Chamith (talk) 13:50, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
I'm afraid I don't really have many "typical" days because I am so busy doing so many different things. But the closest thing I have to a typical day is that I get up with the kids early, usually around 6am. I meet my assistant at around 9am and we work together for 2-3 hours on various items and then she leaves me alone to work on longer tasks, whatever those might be depending on what is going on. But that kind of day is well under half of my days. Other days, I have meetings that I have to go to (either related to TPO, or political things in the UK, or media). There are usually a lot of phone calls throughout the day, but again, that depends.
There are many other types of days. Often I'm traveling to give speeches and meet people. Sometimes I'm at home in Florida visiting my daughter there.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:08, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
@Jimbo Wales: Do you ever get any time-off?Amanda Smalls 14:11, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
I do sometimes go on vacation (quite a bit more than I used to - living in Europe and all) and I also generally don't do much work on the weekends.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:35, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
Amanda Smalls, even though your questions are of the utmost importance of course, it is not necessary to ping Jimbo on his own talk page.--MONGO 14:24, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
Hey Jimbo, just in case you missed it - this user is now blocked Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 04:39, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

An appeal of an admin decision

Hi Jimbo, A few weeks ago, you commented on the ravaged state of the ACIM article in two comments: your first ACIM talk page comment and your second ACIM talk page comment. As I understood it, you said essentially that "It is false or oddly limited at best to say that we only present "what the academic mainstream has found worthy of covering". I have since found what I considered to be a significant and fairly major NPOV policy change that I believe has acted very directly to "ravage" the ACIM article. This policy change first came about via Francis' now official policy change made without any consensus. A brief personal account of my own personal experience of how this recent policy change played out for me, can be found here. I have tried to address this policy change with most of the other policy editors here. By the end of this policy discussion, it became quite clear to me that User:Francis_Schonken had made this significant policy change without any consensus before making the change, and the only reason that the change had apparently "slipped" into current policy, was because Francis had apparently succeeded in using his long experience with handling WP Policy to "slip" the policy change in, essentially while nobody was watching. Also by the end of this three day policy discussion, it was abundantly clear that there still was not, and never had been, any consensus about accepting the policy change that Francis' had managed to "slip in". Based on standard policy protocol, I then reverted Francis policy change here and here. He has now reverted the policy three times (two very recently, and one in July) without without ever making any attempt to discuss his specific reversions in advance and achieve consensus for them, acting entirely on his own, unilaterally. I reported this at the 3RR notice-board here, and was met with administrative "verdict" that Francis policy change was valid. And essentially that I was "culpable" in my behavior. Is this really how policy is now dictated in Wikipedia? Scott P. (talk) 15:37, 24 October 2014 (UTC), A concerned Wikipedian

I fully support that edit, and I don't see it as a policy change of any kind but a clarification of existing practice. Note well that this doesn't impact the argument I was making about A Course in Miracles. An article about a book should tell what the book is about. And the best and most reliable source for what a book says is the book itself.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:56, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
Thanks Jimbo, but just to be clear, which of the above edits do you fully support? It sounds to me like you are supporting Francis' policy change, or are you supporting some other edit? Scott P. (talk) 16:01, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
I don't agree that it is a (material) policy change, but yes, the edit to policy is what I meant. Judging from what he wrote on the talk page at ACIM, he appears to agree with you on the substantive issue. I think the edit he made to the policy change is a good one, although as with any such edit there is much worth thinking about. I can see a legitimate challenge to it being posted, but I don't think it leads to the consequences you suggest.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:19, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
I would be happy to attempt another challenge to this policy if I had reason to believe that I would not again be simply wasting a huge amount of my time and energy, to simply stand by and watch policies that seem to me to have dire consequences being dictated in this manner, being stamped with official administrative approval. I simply do not have the desire, time or energy to go through all of this again, only to be told I am behaving "culpably". Thanks. Scott P. (talk) 16:31, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
@Scottperry: There is no "official administrative approval". The policy is simply locked for a period of time to prevent constant reverting. Looking at the talk page I see significant support for your position so simply try to clarify consensus and then make an edit request if consensus supports you. --NeilN talk to me 16:40, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
Neil, thanks for the suggestion, but the last time I tried to clarify consensus at that talk page, my edit was blanked out with the implicit approval of all other editors there. No thanks. Scott P. (talk) 17:06, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
@Scottperry: If you want a clear process and outcome, start a WP:RFC on the two versions (and try refraining from using "voting" terminology). --NeilN talk to me 17:21, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
@Scottperry: Arguments on the content of the matter are most likely to convince me for whatever improvement. I think that goes for most others too, but only want to speak for myself. Discussions about procedure more likely lead not to changes in consensus. Sometimes such discussions are necessary (alas), but they seldomly lead to new insights that bring opinions closer together.
I think that was the first reason how come we kept talking next to each other, and you ending up somewhat disappointed in the "system". Sometimes a bit out-of-the-box thinking can be beneficial, and less prone to losing courage. --Francis Schonken (talk) 17:48, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
@Scottperry Again, I invite you to take part in content discussions of the changes you favour, at Talk:A Course in Miracles#Synopsis requested, WT:NPOV and wherever suitable. The admin protecting the policy page didn't decide on the content of the change any of us made to the page (see m:The Wrong Version), the only thing that admin tried to make clear is that edit-warring is not a viable method that would result in a stable policy change. --Francis Schonken (talk) 16:07, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
Actually Francis, I will not be doing any further editing at Wikipedia, if this is how policy is now dictated at Wikipedia, but thanks. Scott P. (talk) 16:09, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
I think Scottperry makes good points, both about this edit and how policies are made. The change seems intended to encourage a deletionist point of view, including multiple attempts to remove material, and rejection of article expansion in proportion to the number of sources available. Yet there is no deletionism when it comes to how the policy is handled -- this edit balloons it with irrelevant material, which is harmful to the cause of getting editors to actually read and follow the important parts. And showcasing "Mel Gibson DUI incident" in a core Wikipedia policy -- what kind of BLP practice is that??? The other part is that yes, it seems like there is a definite in-group dominating the policies, who revert any change good bad or indifferent unless it comes from them, and seem to let through changes from their own number. It is possible that these changes have more consensus than is obvious due to IRC discussions or something, but it has a sour taste reminiscent of any local government meeting where, sunshine law or not, the agenda is a done deal long before you hear about it. Wnt (talk) 12:15, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Funniest action you've seen on Wikipedia

Hi Jimmy, is this set of deletion actions, where Harej deleted some orphaned non-free images but accidentally cut-and-pasted a movie title into the deletion reason field, still among the most hilarious things you've seen on Wikipedia? Have you encountered or heard about any other highly amusing things on the site since then, especially something that hasn't been mentioned at the village stocks? I still remember the original thread ... and it took me ages to find it, hence why I brought it up again ... and hey, laughing is fun! :) Graham87 08:30, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

There's more fun at Wikipedia:Lamest edit wars Cambalachero (talk) 12:15, 25 October 2014 (UTC)