User talk:John from Idegon/Archive 21

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Regarding Orlando Edits

Forgive me for the "ranting edits". I don't know how to use Wikipedia, and even figuring out how to respond to you is a headache in and of itself. The original Orlando article stated that Orlando was the 26th most populous metropolitan area. That statistic was linked tohttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_metropolitan_areas. If you click that link, you discover that Orlando is not in fact the 26th most populous metro area, it is actually the 20th most populous. I change the Orlando article so that it accurately reflected the source it was already citing. There's no new source for me to cite, it's the same exact source. All you have to do is click the source to double check to see if I'm accurate. MrX is citing a source that ranks cities according to Core Base Statistical Errors, which is NOT the same as Metropolitan. Also, that's not even the reference that the Orlando article was even citing to.

Bottom line is there was an error, and I, acting as a layperson, decided to correct it. Sorry if I'm coming across as a jerk, but really, I don't know anything about Wikipedia's protocol, terminology, fields, coding, etc etc. Wikipedia is obviously not very user-friendly to new users (I didn't even know I could leave this message for you until a few moments ago - hell, I didn't even know that YOU left a message for me until minutes before that). I've learned a valuable lesson though: don't take anything on Wikipedia for face value and don't even bother correcting anything if you're not one of the elite users. — Preceding unsignedcomment added by 142.196.167.196 (talk) 01:10, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Red links

Okay, np. Other users should then not do that to my red links too. I'll see what happens. Thanks. Daniellagreen (talk) 03:02, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

School articles

I'm glad to see that there a few wiki editors who see the value of school articles. I have had several removed (mostly redirected0 and lost several hours of hard research. I try very hard to show consistancy in what I write from article to article. (I mostly do Texas High School). My question to you is how can I make reference to historically African-American schools who have who titles and who advanced to the title game/match. Unfortunately, there is really so little available about these schools and what I have used has only recently been released. Please help me with creating good articles and keeping them from being unnecessarily redirected to the school district they are a part of. Indyjrg1762 (talk) 06:27, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

Tsk. Not "your redlinks", the redlinks in the article. Remember when you worked on the newspaper, and the editor or the copyeditor bluepenciled something you wrote? Every other editor here is in a way the copyeditor. It will only cause you problems to personalize your contributions. You grasped what it took to make your article on a company notable quickly. There are at least 50 separate specialized notability standards, half of them for biographical articles alone. After two years of doing this, I am just now to the point where I feel confident finding them all, much less knowing for certain what they all say. It would be hard for a new editor like yourself to be able to just decide whether a redlink was appropriate or not. Always assume good faith! And to throw a couple more pieces of wikiphilosophy at ya...remember please that Wikipedia is a work in progress and there is no deadline! Gtwfan52 (talk) 03:17, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
Lol, right, not "my redlinks", the redlinks that I added. I say this in regard to a talk currently going on in another article in which the same editor deleted my contributions to both articles, and is now arguing against them in one article. The issue was blown out of proportion. I can see what you stated earlier regarding editors. To me, some people just like conflict and to escalate a situation that is unnecessary to do. It has gotten beyond the point where I have been repeatedly offended, and I'm walking away. It just makes me appreciate your guidance, expertise, and professionalism even more upon encountering folks such as those. Thanks, Daniellagreen (talk) 02:59, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

The Signpost: 30 October 2013

Nomination of Pershing Middle School (Houston) for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Pershing Middle School (Houston) is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Pershing Middle School (Houston) until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article.

You are receiving this notice because you attempted to turn this article into a redirect back in June 2013. That attempt was later reverted. The purpose of the deletion discussion is to determine if the article should again be turned into a redirect. Outcomes of deletion discussions generally carry significant weight, which should prevent a unilateral revert should the consensus be "redirect." davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 01:53, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. I was going to do that myself here soon. Thanks for beating me to it. It is good to know my thinking was not alone on this.Gtwfan52 (talk) 02:50, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Hi! For Lanier Middle School (Houston) I added a new source. I added new sources for Pershing too. WhisperToMe (talk) 02:57, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Name Change

Congrats on your user name change! It's good to know you, John. :-) Daniellagreen (talk) 17:05, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

WPWPSCH

Waterford Union High School

Recently I have begun to edit this article. Could you check it out and tell me what you think. I'm not crazy about the long list of clubs but not sure of what to do. Thanks, John. ```Buster Seven Talk 15:57, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

I am not crazy about that long list either, but I threw some formatting on it so it didn't look so ugly! If you want to do some more on it, here are some thoughts:
  1. add a reference section and reference something to the school's website so it at least has a ref on it.
  2. fill in the infobox a little more. add the following fields and put data in them: streetaddress, country, zipcode. wikilink the city, the state and country. change the field name for mascot to nickname. (funny mind picture--wolverines running up and down the sidelines going yay, team!), add colorbox templates to the colors line ({{colorbox|whatever color}}).
  3. check and see if there is a logo you can copy from the school's website. If so upload it to wikipedia (not commons) as a fair use and add it to the infobox. You will need to add a field for it (logo) and then put in the file like this: [[File:whatever name including the file extension|200px]].
  4. add a list of sports offered in the athletics section. you can usually find that info on the school's website.
  5. if they have any state championships, those can go in the athletic section, referenced to the Wisconsin athletics sanctioning org's website.
  6. the bad thing is none of the above will raise it up from a stub. However, a history section, which is fine to be referenced to the school's site if they have the info, will raise it to a start.
  7. use the "What links here" tool on the left side of the page to look for biographies that link to the school. Those are very possibly people who can go in the notables section.

Now the fun starts. You will have to watch it to remove the frequent insertion of girlfriends names, obscenities, etc. Welcome to the wonderful world of school articles! John from Idegon (talk) 18:25, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Ive been looking for some "real" work to do and this type of school editing may be it. Thanks for the help. Since the beginning (2008) I have been learning by watching what other editors do. As such, I have two questions:
  1. it looks like you tried to make columns for the clubs but it didn't work.
  2. where are you finding the notable alumni?

Buster Seven Talk 20:45, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

The columns look like they worked to me. On the left side of every page, there is a tool bar. look for the tab, "what links here". Any bio that comes up on that list is a good candidate. John from Idegon (talk) 22:08, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Another school article

My daughter is a Montessori teacher in Toledo, Ohio. Due to the help and guidance you provided above, I have started to create an article for her school @ User:Buster7/Sandbox- Westside Montessori, Toledo. I have emailed some administrators of the school for history, info, etc. I mention this in the hopes that you can look over my shoulder every now and then and keep me headed in the right direction. No rush...it's most likely a long-range project. Thanks. ```Buster Seven Talk 18:31, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

The nice thing about high schools is they are more or less automatically notable. Unfortunately, schools below high school level are not. All you must do is prove they exist, and the school's website is enough for that. Public schools are generally listed in the GNIS. There is a trick to citing the GNIS, so be sure to read the FAQ's on their website. That will provide you with coordinate info and further proof of existence. The government is notoriously sucky at providing accurate info for geolocation (I don't know how the hell they keep the planes from running into each other), so always double check them with Acme mapper. You can also enter a street address into acme and get geocordinates. Acme is much easier to use for getting coordinates than Google maps. I don't need to tell you that info gleened from an email is WP:OR, but for the history section it is not a big deal unless the copy makes some claim of accomplishment or fame. Demographic and other statistical info needs to be cited to something WP:RS. I urge you to go visit the school project at WP:WPSCHOOLS and to read the school article guidelines at WP:SCH/AG. The whole school infobox is at Template:infobox school. It is huge, but of course it only shows the fields you fill out. It contains fields that only apply to foreign schools, colleges and other crap you don't need. John from Idegon (talk) 19:45, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

The Signpost: 06 November 2013

"Wiki Loves Libraries" edit-athon in Vancouver, WA

WIKI LOVES LIBRARIES 2013!
You are invited to attend the upcoming "Wiki Loves Libraries" edit-athon. The event will be held from 2:30–4:30pm on Sunday, November 17, 2013 at the Vancouver Community Library (901 C Street) in Vancouver, Washington. The edit-athon will focus on creating and expanding articles related to Vancouver and Clark County.Details and signup here!

You are receiving this message because you are listed as an active member of WikiProjectOregon or WikiProject Washington. This message was delivered by EdwardsBot (talk) 15:06, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Question at the Teahouse

By co-incidence, I asked a question @ the TH [1]just after yours. But as you state in your thread, mine also went to the end of the line. Will they be seen by anyone? ``Buster Seven Talk 07:40, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

Well, I saw yours....and you saw mine! The anser to your question is go to preferences/gadgets and enable twinkle. With twinkle, when you look at the diffs on an aticle, you will get a button above every one that say s restore this version. That should do it. John from Idegon (talk) 07:44, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
Thanks. I tried that but it refused because there was some "blacklist" something or other in the previous "clean from COI" version. That would have been the easiest way but the whole article needs get a major overhaul. I'm not going to worry about trying to just cancel out the edits by the singers representative. BTW, I can't get twinkle to work w/ Internet Exployer....so I switch over to Google Chrome whenever I want to use Twinkle. ```Buster Seven Talk 08:33, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
Yea, twinkle is based in Javascript and IE sucks with JS. It works fine with either Chrome or Firefox. Typical Microsoft BS. John from Idegon (talk) 16:06, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

A beer for you!

Thanks for straightening out the edits at Carmel High School. I should have followed up on that when I removed the one bad edit using Stiki. It just slipped my mind. Thanks for cleaning up after me. Best! — Keithbob • Talk • 03:32, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

The Center Line: Fall 2013

Volume 6, Issue 4 • Fall 2013 • About the Newsletter
Departments
Features
State and national updates
Archives • Newsroom • Full Issue • Shortcut: WP:USRD/NEWS
—EdwardsBot (talk) 03:05, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Copyright Violation

Hiya John from Idegon, If the issue is who has been most helpful to User:Kathrynklos, well we can simply ask her. I feel that I am qualified to contribute as I am not currently blocked or banned; furthermore I have the ability to see see the wood for the trees. Under theCreative Commons Deed You are free: to Share—to copy. But I am open to an examination of where a specific violation has occurred in this instance. Tommy Pinball (talk) 11:44, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

See WP:PAGEMOVE and WP:CUTPASTE. I never said anything about a violation. What I said was if you don't know the right answer, you should keep your damn mouth shut, or better yet, admit it and ask someone who does. There is no sin in ignorance---but there certainly is in disseminating wrong info. Next time I won't be nice and leave your name out of it when I get an admin to help with the issue. Teahouse is very important to me. Disseminating false info gives it a bad name. I could care if you don't give someone the best answer, but it really pisses me off when you give someone an absolutely wrong answer and than rather than saying something like "good catch, thanks for having my back." you want to argue about it.John from Idegon (talk) 14:49, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
Your words Since everything here is underCC-BY-SA 3.0 License and GFDL, that makes a page moved by cut and paste a copyright violation. You say there is no sin in ignorance, I want to be clear that you are not disseminating wrong info. Tommy Pinball (talk) 15:45, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Removing own Teahouse question

What is the reason for [2]? If a question has no answers yet then it seems reasonable that the poster can remove it if they no longer want help. Now I spent time investigating the question before discovering the poster didn't want it. PrimeHunter (talk) 19:59, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

I see you posted at User talk:Olliechick#In regard your recent posting at Teahouse but I don't see a point in keeping a random question when the problem has already been fixed to the poster's satisfaction. I wasted time trying to guess why the poster might not be seeing the timed text before realising that they do see it now, and there is nothing wrong with the page linked in the question. This is the first time at Wikipedia I have ever seen an objection to removing your own post when there are no replies. WP:REDACT only talks against removing it when there are replies. PrimeHunter (talk) 20:12, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

The Signpost: 13 November 2013

Re: when I removed my comment from the Teahouse

No worries. I don't feel we got off on the wrong foot at all. I'll add repling to my question to my to-do list. :)Olliechick (talk) 03:40, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

Re: when I removed my comment from the Teahouse

No worries. I don't feel we got off on the wrong foot at all. I'd already added my answer to the question. :) Olliechick(talk) 03:51, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

Just wanted to clarify the thing a bit for you. I really am dedicated to the teahouse as I would have quit Wikipedia after about a week if not for them. I have been a host there almost since the beginning, and the first question I asked is in the 2nd or 3rd archive. I think it is one of the friendliest, safest places here on Wikipedia, which as I am sure you have noticed, is filled with impersonal templated messages and warnings and myriad indecipherable rules. I will be glad to help you in any way I can. Thanks for writing back! John from Idegon (talk) 04:00, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

Thoughts on individual state championships

Hi there! I noticed you removed the individual state champions listing for Parkway West High School. I had included this information because although not "team" championships, they are state championships in accordance with the state activities association. Some activities (e.g. wrestling, debate, track) frequently or solely award individual-type championships. Your edit summary said that individual achievements were not encyclopedic in the context of a high school article; can you clarify and expanding upon your reasoning for this?

Thanks, poroubalous (talk) 23:33, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

Firstly, the school article guidelines, not I, state individual achievements are not encyclopedic. Per WP:SCH/AG: "Major extra curricular championships will be defined as the highest possible championship a team can win from that activity's organizing committee. In the United States, this would nominally be a "state championship". Individual awards should generally not be listed. National championships, when referenced, may also be listed." Namecrufting is a huge problem in high school articles and I believe that is part of the reason for this guideline. Another portion of the school article guidelines state: "Any mention of living people must conform with the biography of living persons policy, including the presumption in favour of privacy. While naming the head teacher or principal is permitted, lists or detailed information about current or former pupils, parents of current or former pupils, administrative staff, school secretaries, teachers etc. is usually inappropriate. Special care should be taken in regards to the mention of individual pupils or providing information that would allow individual pupils to be identified (particularly where they are underage); such disclosures should only occur in exceptional circumstances." The general interpretation of this is unless they are notable to the point that they have a pre-existing Wikipedia Bio, we do not mention them.
Secondly, I have to dispute your statement that wrestling, track and debate do not have team championships. I have edited high school articles in all 50 states and every one of them has a team wrestling and track champion. Debate is not even organized officially in many states, but at least 15 of them have team championship awards and I really have never seen a state with a forensic organization that doesn't give a team championship. My experience is not as widespread with those however. I hope this clears up your concerns and thanks for caring about high school articles. John from Idegon (talk) 00:45, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
I didn't say that wrestling, track, and debate do not have team championships, only that they frequently or solely award individual championships. Both wrestling and track frequently award them; debate in some states solely awards them. I entirely agreeing namecrufting is an issue; I didn't include names and the cited information does not, either. poroubalous (talk) 01:38, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
I did just check and verify that Missouri does not show a school champion in debate. That seems strange. Am I correct in surmising that is due to the fact they let students from different schools team up? I was thinking that because they don't even show a school affiliation for the teams. So for that,since it is actually a team championship (albeit a two-man team), if you can find a way to reference it and do not name the students, I see no reason why it cannot be included. You would have to find a way to reference that the two students are in fact from the school.John from Idegon (talk) 00:45, 18 November 2013 (UTC)


In the case of Missouri, the state association gives speech and debate championship awards only to individuals (granted, some debates and some speech events are single versus single, others are two versus two, in which case the two who won are named "state champions"). The students on a two-person team are required to attend the same school. It would be strange to list only those debate championships for which the debate was a two versus two instead of a one versus one. I would also note that some track champions are "relay", in which a group of individuals achieves the championship. Based on your rationale of allowing a listing of the number of two-person-style debate championships (without listing student names, of course), would it not be logical to allow a listing of track relay championships, single-person-style debate championships, or single-person state champions in any activity sanctioned by the state (again without listing individual names)? poroubalous (talk) 01:38, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
No, because Missouri clearly awards a state team championship in track. See http://www.mshsaa.org/Activities/PostseasonResult.aspx?alg=52&id=1149.

John from Idegon (talk) 02:09, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

Springdale, AR

Dear John, I noticed your recent edit in which you told me "Adding a crummy picture that does not illustrate any of the text does not help." I believe that image was located right next to list of attractions in the city, including the Rodeo of the Ozarks, which is hosted in the facility pictured. I have never been to the Rodeo and thus I have not been able to take a photo of the live action, but I have driven by the stadium and thought an illustration of the facility may be able to show readers the type of facility mentioned in the list.

However, your edit inspired me to find a freely available photo on flickr from the rodeo (at right). Please feel free to peruse these other free photographs to see if you find a suitable alternative. If not, I will add the new photo as part of a major edit I am currently undertaking for Springdale in a few minutes. Cheers! Brandonrush Woo pig soooooooie! 02:39, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

Thanks

Appreciate your public comments in reverts, Gtw. Will look good in the script. All the Best Taram (talk)

firstly, as you obviously already know, that is no longer my name. Secondly, what does that mean? "Will look good in the script." ? John from Idegon (talk) 04:41, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

Avenue of the giants

Member of the Redwood Alumni Avenue of the Giants and the Redwood Alumni Athletic Hall of Fame are both elected through annual nominations and a juried selection committee, as can be seen by the web pages describing their processes. They are not self-references and are not casual awards. You are not being consistent if you remove the AOG and leave the AHOF. I would ask you to keep both, or remove both. BerdanII(talk) 06:18, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

I saw what you did patrolling changes. I also saw a problem edit in the addition of someone without a reference connecting them to the school (Fisher, the department chair at MIT). I really have no clue as to what you are talking about regarding various halls of fame that school has. (I thought schools were there to teach, not honor, but that is another discussion). No school hall of fame is sufficient to show notability. The best indication of notability is the existence of a Wikipedia article on the subject, since notability (per WP:N) is what is required to be on a notable alumni list, and notability (per WP:N) is what is required to have an article on Wikipedia. And you can argue all you want, but a school's hall of fame listed on the school's website, is not independent of the school, no matter what its prestige may be. It will never be a reliable source for the notability of people who attended the school. Most of the terms you see tossed around by Wikipedia editors frequently, like "reliable sources" and "notability" are used rather than a more common term because they have a specific subjective definition on Wikipedia. A reliable source is not something someone feels is reliable, a notable person is not someone who somebody thinks is notable. A reliable source will be independent of the entity it is referencing and have a reliable system of fact checking in place. A notable person will be being talked about (or "made note of") by reliable sources. It is kinda like saying "port" instead of "left". Port is always the boat's left side, whereas left may be whatever direction relative to the boat depending on what way you are facing.
The issue with adding all those references to the school's hall of fame was not that the people you were adding them to wouldn't be notable without them; it was just a waste of time and space, and it may have given someone down the road the idea that being in one of those halls of fame meant something viz. the Wikipedia article. John from Idegon (talk) 06:46, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
Then you must remove the Athletic Hall of Fame references too, if you are to be consistent since they too were chosen in the same process. That is fine with me. As for schools being there to teach and not to honor - well, that is not the reality. Universities given honorary degrees of many kinds. But as you say, that is another discussion. BerdanII (talk) 06:59, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
Excuse me, but you are not in any position to tell me what I must and must not do. If you wish to remove the references from whatever other halls of fame this silly self righteous school has, feel free. I am a volunteer here, just like you. As I told you before, I found your addition patrolling changes. i know not of the other thing you speak. All the notables on that school's notable list check out as notable. didn't even need to look at the references to determine that. I patrol roughly 2000 high school articles. I don't wish to take the time to look thru this one in any more detail than I already have. John from Idegon (talk) 07:06, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

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Talkback

Hello, John from Idegon. You have new messages at Ross Hill's talk page.
Message added 22:09, 20 November 2013 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Ross Hill (talk)22:09, 20 Nov 2013 (UTC) 22:09, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

Talkback

Hello, John from Idegon. You have new messages at Ross Hill's talk page.
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Ross Hill (talk)22:20, 20 Nov 2013 (UTC) 22:20, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

Huntley High School

I'm sorry I reverted your edits, but I don't appreciate unnecessary section blanking. One of the reasons editors are fleeing Wikipedia is due to the constant deletion of their contributions. I'm sorry, I wasn't always great with references in the past. But if there's an issue, please take it to the talk page first, rather than deleting massive parts of the article. Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. I still have yet to see anywhere that a school making it to state or having a history of strong programs is somehow "unencyclopedic". I realize now that some things in there were unencyclopedic and have made changes accordingly, but the vast majority of it is relevant, objective, and worthy of inclusion. I have now cited the sections at issue and remove things that are not encyclopedic. Please try to talk it out before deleting next time. Thanks.Abog (talk) 22:59, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but Wikipedia is a community of volunteers. We don't just go about things the way YOU want to do them. Also, from the guideline you directed me to, it seemed very vague, and I did not see anything in there that would suggest that the content in the athletics & activities section is unencyclopedic. Please refrain from making blanket mass deletions of encyclopedic material before discussing it on the talk page. Thanks. Abog (talk) 23:17, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
I am making efforts to improve the article and discuss it. I don't know why you can't do the same. Discussion and collaboration on Wikipedia is a two-way street. Please stop removing cited, encyclopedic material. I am actually trying to come halfway here...apparently you've failed to notice, but I've already cleaned the section up a bit, improved the prose, deleted unencyclopedic material about the coaches, modified text to fit the source, etc. My intention is not to simply revert anymore. Please try to come halfway here and compromise. You still have yet to show me why the content in that section does not belong. The school article guideline you direct me to actually says that there can be a section talking about the school's accomplishments. Maybe YOU don't think making it to state is notable, but that doesn't mean it isn't. Also, don't you think it helps a reader get a better understanding of the school and its programs by providing a little context, rather than just a list of state titles? (or none whatsoever) Abog (talk) 23:37, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

Talkback

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Message added 23:40, 22 November 2013 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Preston Hollow Elementary School

Hi! I restored Preston Hollow Elementary School as its own article and added book sources (sources from Google Books) to show notability WhisperToMe (talk) 07:58, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

I believe this is probably a new section. Perhaps I should ask the man with all the answers

John from Mark Powell:

This answers your posting on my talk page, just seen.

Goodness are you silly -- and another example of why Wiki doesn't and perhaps can't really thrive.

I, being concerned with and focused on hard factual corrections (of history geography, science and math primarily; also of spelling, grammar, etc.) in major media and academe (as contrasting Wiki, though I correct almost every substantive Wiki page I see, and doubt anyone has made as many hard, unassailable factual corrections in Wiki as have I) and sometimes mere improvements in sense, organization and/or logic (as in the Michigan case that has you so exercised), am so unfamiliar with talk pages (and all mechanical and attached aspect of Wiki beyond simple text editing) that this is my first attempt to write on anyone's. I haven't even read all of my my own page (made wholly by others). My only communications have been in the explain-edit block presented with each text edit. All this is in heavy contrast to your obvious obsession --obvious now, that I had reason to glance, at just that, a glance; and obvious as being exercised in practically real time -- with your posted edits and the personal Wiki functions such as talk pages.

I don't intend to engage a running debate with you, or a ridiculous "duel" of correction/improvement and undoing of same. Please let this statement, however distasteful to you, stand as my communication with you -- and please consider the Michigan matter, i.e. size rather than alpha listing of states whose combined area roughly matches the UP's, resolved and not needing change-back from sensible to less sensible and misleading.

Several things speak for themselves, including but not limited to:

1) Your assertion that things that stand unchanged for much time gain credibility from that fact is perfectly ludicrous. I constantly correct howling, obvious hard factual errors, including on what must be heavily trafficked pages, that apparently just stood there for quite some time. And as I often note in dismay, a great deal of the time, I'd even say a majority of it, information directly contradicting the error is immediately available

2) While listing the states in alpha order is not a factual error, listing them in size order is obviously better, since (hel-*lo*) geographic size is there the issue. I think many readers, given the context, have assumed or at least suspected, when the text is "your way," that you are listing the states in size order. Of course it's too bad anyone could be so fundamentally ignorant of U.S. political geography to think that, but reality is most people are. Perhaps you've heard how geo-ignorant (as well as just-about-anything-ignorant) are most Americans. And all those news blips about what Ivy Leaguers don't know. Most recent one I happened to see is on Harvard students (very many of whom, past surveys have shown, are clueless of such utter civic basics as who are their U.S. senators) clueless what's the capital of Canada. **So,** responsible Wiki editors must EDUCATE, without talking too far or unnecessarily down to people (proper insults can be reserved for the explain-edit block, which is not visible to those who don't go looking for it), but **acting to preclude confusion and/or misunderstanding, given the general state of knowledge,** as I do in that spot.

3) With all the uncounted hundreds of hard factual corrections I've made -- again, very many being obvious in need (in one place or another) **even to zero topic knowledge,** simply by present contradiction; this is one reason I use some hard but well-rated words such as "stupid" --it's laughable I'm engaging this my first Wiki "debate" over something as comparatively unimportant as the rubric for listing those states.

4) While I am much farther than you from the knowledge of Wiki mechanics needed to actually count such things, I say again that it's highly unlikely anyone -- though very many people apparently spend **far** more time in Wiki than I (and that's without even taking the issue "under the text" to talk pages, associated functions) -- has made as many hard-factual, unchallenged and unchallengeable corrections as I. Since you're so supposedly aware of my activity, maybe you should avail yourself of my full corrections record (however that can be obtained/viewed; I have literally no idea), and thus mute yourself if you don't have comparable record.

5) People like you help doom Wiki in "quest" to become what it could/should/would be, a generally credible outlet in comparison to "leading" news/academic outlets -- themselves desperately, often violently factually errant; this reality being far better documented, with many thousands of examples, in my files than apparently anywhere else, at least in English in the West. People might be upset by my honesty in justified criticism in my explain-edit blocks, but Wiki needs me, needs my probably unique ability to make and actual making of **factual corrections**. If people like you drive me from Wiki -- i.e. just pester, badmouth and talk-page-load me, not to mention childishly "revert" valid corrections or mere improvements because you don't like being corrected or improved -- Wiki will be much the poorer. My fault or failure with Wiki is that I read "only" the "few" pieces I do. Again, I factually correct most substantive pages I see. If you care at all about Wiki, and can put **facts and the educational mission** before your own ego, you should value that (and thus, yes, me), however you think you feel about me from this glancing electronic "contact."

Of course this attack on you would be immediately better-based had I busted you reversing a factual correction rather than simply disagreeing about a sense-stylistic ordering of (as you called them) nouns. But with regret I consider very likely that even little time spent examining "your" Wiki content -- time I don't intend to dedicate, though I probably should learn how to do such -- would produce multiple such cases of your attacking factual corrections of your work precisely and only because they are upon your work.

That's all. I doubt you'll let this attack go unanswered, but one can hope. And even now it's unlikely I'll see your reply in anything like the apparently electronically cued real-time in which you engage activity in "your" Wiki spaces. I refuse to divert much if any more time than I have here, to this aspect of Wiki. I chose you, despite the fact that we contest only a style-sense matter rather than facts -- my bailiwick --because, in finally reading most of my (made-by-others) talk page, I saw you directly request communication from me, yea even in superficially reasonable terms; and because after several years it's time I got at least such as the above off my chest. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Markwpowell64 (talk •contribs) 08:24, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

((Friendly stalker)) I suggest using Hawaii and Maryland. ```Buster Seven Talk13:16, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

The Signpost: 20 November 2013

Roosevelt High School

Thanks for the feedback! It's National Register-listed, so I photographed it as part of getting National Register of Historic Places listings in Lake County, Indiana up to fully-illustrated status. It's far away from me in Bloomington, but it was important to get the fully-illustrated status for Lake County; see File:NRHP Illustrated Counties.svg. Nyttend (talk) 03:13, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

Great work. I kinda miss Indiana. Thanks for the memories. Question. Did you by chance go by the Carnegie Library in Hobart? I was curious as to the status of the school across the street from it. The oldest part was the original school for the whole city of Hobart, and the whole building, all two blocks of it, was the middle school until it moved to the old high school building a few years ago. John from Idegon (talk) 03:19, 27 November 2013 (UTC)
I visited it in early June, but the angle of the sun, together with a big tree out front, made my photo substantially poorer in quality thanthe current one. I remember that there was a school across the street, but I don't remember much of anything about it; all I know is that it's still in use for something, because I tried to get a photo of the library from the school entrance, only to have to move when someone parked in front of me in order to go into the school. Nyttend (talk) 22:12, 29 November 2013 (UTC)
PS, see File:First United Methodist Church of Hobart.jpg on another corner of the same intersection. Nyttend (talk) 22:15, 29 November 2013 (UTC)
Are you a mind reader, or what? That is the church I was raised in! Thanks, Nyttend! John from Idegon (talk) 22:51, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for November 27

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Irving Independent School District

While doing some "random article" editing I stumbled upon the above. The Lead was extremely top heavy, so I redistributed some of the info around a bit. If you get a chance can you give it a look and critique my edits. Again, no rush. ```Buster Seven Talk16:29, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

Sallie Severns article

Oops! Sorry for submitting it twice. I think I clicked something a bit over-enthusiastically. I'll do some work on it then try again.--FergusM1970Let's play Freckles 00:47, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

The Special Barnstar
Thank you for being a supporter of School Articles! Indyjrg1762 (talk) 06:31, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
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