User talk:Ynhockey/Archive7

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Jaakobou RfC

Please see Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Jaakobou. You seem to know a bit about Jaakobou's editing history, and I know you like to pop into discussions and defend him. Here's your chance! :-) <eleland/talkedits> 20:18, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Re: Map for High-speed railway to Jerusalem article

Way cool, thanks for stepping up and adding it. Slambo (Speak) 17:33, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Kfar Mena(c)hem

PLEASE , I LIVE IN KFAR MENACHEM born there ( I am 56 year old )

NOT Kfar Menahem

Shqlomi Garber


Kfar Menachem

Avraham Menachem Mendel Ussishkin (1863-1941) was a notable Zionist leader

Is this from WIKI enough Shalomi —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shalomig (talk • contribs) 18:55, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Conflict of Interest

Ynhockey, I am just wondering if you might be able to explain how, as a member of the IDF you do not have a conflict of interest when editing Israeli or even Palestinian related articles? I only ask this because some of your recent edits on Gilo seemed to have removed important and worthy sources (ie: The UN) and replaced them with sources like the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs, which are far more partisan sources. The article also seems to have taken on a rather nationalist tone, and minimises the viewpoints which dispute its legal status. Colourinthemeaning (talk) 04:28, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Ness Ziona

Shalom. Please use more preview button. I found that you saved article about Ness Ziona 10 times in less than half an hour. Thanks. --Faigl.ladislav (talk) 08:19, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Cities XL vs. CITIES XL

Thanks for catching that, I did try and look up on the WP:MOS before changing the name from Cities Unlimited when the game's name was changed. However, it appears I missed WP:MOSTM - it didn't click for some reason that it was trademark. Camaron | Chris (talk) 15:32, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

I have replied to your question on my talk page. Camaron | Chris (talk) 15:45, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

WP:AWB & interwiki links in Arad, Israel

Sorry about messing up the interwiki links on Arad, Israel. I complained to the WP:AWB people. Apparently the latest version sorts them correctly (although the one I was using was only 2 or 3 weeks old). Ling.Nut (talk) 16:34, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Micky Rosenfeld

Hi. I was wondering if you can review the AfD page for this article and then offer your advice. Thanks. Stanley011 (talk) 22:41, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Kfar Menachem

I try to let you Know Kfar Menachem in the name Menachem Osishkin - from WIKI: ".... by a group of activists named "Irgun Menachem" after Menachem Osishkin founded in Rehovot ..... " [1] and Avraham Menachem Mendel Ussishkin is translate wrong too [2] you change the history when you try to translate name of place. sorry for you .... Shalomi —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shalomig (talk • contribs) 09:57, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Your recent AN/I comment

Hi Yan. I appreciate your comments and find them quite reasonable in the whole.

Regardless of the fact that we may agree or disagree about the blocks and whether they fit their purpose or not, we could at least have a couple of days to discuss how to better deal with this with the minimum energies possible. They were meant to stop disruption so others can think about what should be done. 1 week was not a random block period but enough to start fresh.

As you said, many people lose ineterest in editing I-P area. Others come. Same happens to mentors and admins in this area. Avi and me co-mentored Isarig and if it wasn't because he decided to leave Wikipedia he would have been a very good editor - probably a model to a few others. I know how hard is to mentor someone but I can't imagine spending our time mentoring (almost) everybody all the time. The ArbCom message has been sent a couple of months ago. It has been said, re-explained and set clarly lately on AE. The message is clear. Wikipedia needs to move on and it is not a school for parties disputing the same thing forever. Administrators and mentors have different roles but they are still complementary in our case. Both mentors and admins are editors and are very active users on other areas of the project. They are not supposed to dedicate all their time in Wikipedia to police one dispute.

Both Jaakobou and PR have had mentors but we are still at the same point. This is not because of the mentors but because of the users themselves. However, I can understand Jaakobou's particular situation, according to what his mentor, himself, Avi and you are saying (I already warned people on AE recently) - but that is not a green line to revert without discussion and prompt another revert. Same aplies to PR. People are fed up with discussing so they just revert. All I hope is that attitudes change or else we would need a divorce.


That being said, our purpose is to see as many possible conflicting editors working better in a professional way. WP:IPCOLL is one of the venues where parties, mentors, admins and third parties can gather. This way we won't clutter ANI, AN, ArbCom, AE, article talkpages -with all the protect/unprotect stuff that comes with.

Wikipedia should encourage editors to monitor themselves. That is where we should invest our time. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 00:06, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Gadsar Nahal

Hi. I thought I'd check it with you since you're (still) in the army. I've found this new article and my question is - are they really a Gadsar (i.e. battalion)? Are they not a squad (Palsar) or, more accurately, a Sayeret? How does it work nowadays? -- Nudve (talk) 19:16, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, I'll post a message on the talk page. If there's no response, I'll propose a move, right? -- Nudve (talk) 19:29, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
I'd say go ahead with the move now, because there's absolutely no evidence for it being a battalion, although your strategy is sound as well. The most important thing is to watch the page and not forget this issue in the coming few days. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 19:38, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
Very well -- Nudve (talk) 19:40, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
Addendum: Meanwhile, User:Shuki has suggested that this article and the similar Gadsar Tzanchanim be merged into their respective brigade articles. IMO, it might not be such a bad idea.-- Nudve (talk) 06:28, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

WP:HE

Acronym Chambers Dictionary defines

Acronym: a word formed from the initial letters of other words, as radar. This is the widely found dictionary definition. מ"ץ is not a word is it?

Mapik Maybe you have missed my point. Mapik has absolutely nothing to do with dagesh. It makes perfect sense to ignore dagesh in romanization, but none to ignore mapik. In the middle of a word a he is almost always aspirated. In the absence of a vowel the he carries a shva to indicate aspiration (a shva under a he is never sounded). At the end of a word an aspirated he is not given a shva but a mapik. Since the mapik is the aspiration mark, it should be romanized. An unaspirated he carries no mark, whether in mid-word or at the end.

I hope I have myself clear. With thanks. --Redaktor (talk) 23:28, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Dag Nahash

Fair enough, I did a 'google test', which overwhelmingly favours spelling it with a c, but I would use the offical press release as well. Epson291 (talk) 06:55, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Odd, I got 83,000 vs.13,000. Epson291 (talk) 01:03, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Deletion review for The Benji Hillman Foundation

Hi. I saw your comments regarding deleting the original page and therefore have added a lot of information regarding the Foundation as well as 7 secondary sources. I hope you will decide this article is now acceptable. Thank you.--Chaffchaff (talk) 16:49, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Avi Benayahu

Thanks for the help--I appreciate your concern. However I am working currently at the Spokesman's Unit office and have been given the authorization to upload this picture courtesy of the unit. I added that information to the caption to try and help clear up any confusion. Yours, eleamf. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Eleamf (talk • contribs) 07:37, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Damaged RfC

I don't know what's happened over there and I'm hesitant to try and clear up the mess left.

However, I see nothing new whatsoever. If a book-review in an Israeli newspaper tells us "Under the influence of other historians who have dealt with the same issue in recent years, [Prof Shlomo Sand] argues that the exile of the Jewish people is originally a Christian myth that depicted that event as divine punishment imposed on the Jews for having rejected the Christian gospel". then the material is undoubtedly highly relevant. Even proving it factually wrong (as you've not attempted to do) would hardly justify leaving it out. PRtalk 18:15, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Citation a bloody mess

I would appreciate an direction you could give me regarding improving the citations on Yerida. Thanks Pini00001 (talk) 01:42, 17 May 2008 (UTC)


Thanks for Citation help

Thanks for taking the time to help me. I will try to implement your suggestions. Pini00001 (talk) 16:29, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Settlements in Israel

See Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/FritzpollBot and User:Fritzpoll/Geo categorical assessments and also note the category naming in Category:Cities by country. It is all part of an infrastructural process to add a complete world gazetteer on wikipedia and make articles on settlements the most comprehensive possible. This means simplified category structures connecting them all. There is a brilliant list of the main cities in List of cities in Israel anyway for reference which is much better. An FA list congrats! IN several weeks there will be several thousands new articles generated on missing Israeli settlements. These will all be housed in one category to make wikipedia a better and more consistent place for all. Basically we are preparing for a potential 1 million new articles on wikipedia. You;d be amazed how many articles I;ve come across on villages which have been categorized as "Cities" or towns categorized as villages etc. The original discussion on renaming took places back in November 2005 when categories like Category:Cities, towns and villages in Cyprus were created. IBassically I'm looking to have an article on every city, town or village on the planet and I want universal consistency and standard of articles whether they are cities with a population of 7 million or villages with a population of 50, ♦Blofeld of SPECTRE♦ $1,000,000? 16:47, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Well that isn't exactly a fair deal to consult the WP:Israel as they are bound to side with you because that is what they have been accustomed to. I have no idea what you mean when Israel is "missing". Here is all 1100 places. As for a category being named "City" vs "Cities, towns and villages" being a criteria for regarding Israel as "up there with the western powers like USA and UK" is silly. I am fully aware that Israel is far more developed than many countries but the fact is the way israeli settlements on wikipedia are distributed on here in aover 30 different categories is not good and far too complex. There is such a thing as overcategorization. I have no objection to you readding Category:Cities in Israel to the major cities as long as you don't remove the main category I put in; can we please also keep all settlements in one category also for convience? This way it has only positive benenftis surely? ♦Blofeld of SPECTRE♦ $1,000,000? 17:46, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Because I am trying to get some standardization across wikipedia where all settlements within a given area are categorized in the same way by country. What is very difficult is when certain countries are unwilling to change what they are accustomed to in relation to the rest of the world on here because they think they are different or special. Having all the places in one main category is for convenience and to say, all places in Israel are in this category at my fingertips. I found many Israeli aricles on my travels which were categorized as cities with a population of 4,000 and articles with a population of 11,000 categorized as villages. Is this what you want? Aside from this the articles on Israeli cities again go against the norm and have their own infboxes which unlike others don't have a useful locator map as standard ♦Blofeld of SPECTRE♦ $1,000,000? 18:08, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Ther eis alot of inconsistency with the categories. Articles like Rishon LeZion were never categorized as "Cities in Israel" either. You expect people to browse through the 30 + subcategories and find "Coastal cities in Israel" to find the article? ♦Blofeld of SPECTRE♦ $1,000,000?

Let me guess? It was User:MJCDetroit who wanted to convert it to standard right? I have to say that I do think your infoboxes look attractive but they seriously need a map. You may know where the cities are but most wikipedia users don't. I'm not going to pressure you to change the infoboxes but I would strongly advise that pin point map and coordinates is added to the infobox to address these concerns. If you ask MJCDetroit himself he may be able to help out with that. But you're incorrect in that the standard infobox doesnt cater for all countries. It does which is why it is used in over 90% of places now. If the standard infobox has at least 6 parameters which are empty and you can write whatever you want into them how can this not be compatible?? They are a lot more flexible than the ones you have an present. What if I suddenly wanted to add an image or demographic data to the infobox. You'd be stuck ♦Blofeld of SPECTRE♦ $1,000,000? 18:52, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

TASE companies

Here's the list you asked for, I'll put it in this subpage (Template talk:TASE companies/list) Epson291 (talk) 18:12, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Two towns

Hey Ynhockey, I want to first thank you for starting the Kaukab Abu al-Hija article; It was on my to-do list, so it was a delight to see a blue link there. I was recently looking at the North District article and I see it's just about finished! However, I remember a while back I removed one of the towns called Mi'liya because I thought it was the same as Ma'alot-Tarshiha. Since you have more knowledge on this than I do, could you tell me if the two are different towns or the same town. Thanks! --Al Ameer son (talk) 01:20, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Spelling query

Hi there. Could you add your input at User talk:Derwig#Bnaya/Benaya? Just a question over spelling. Cheers, пﮟოьεԻ 57 09:36, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Replied

I ahve replied to you on my talkpage Fritzpoll (talk) 15:52, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Censorship

I find it rude that you delete the addition I made to "Focused Foiling" in the IDF article, what I wrote was perfectly just, I was expanding on what the practice is, state terrorism, and definitly does not lack neutrality, I have re-written a slightly more subtle addition, and would appreciate it if you fucked off. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nassimo (talk • contribs)

AfD discussion

Hi, would you care to comment on the AfD discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Caravanim? Thank you, Yoninah (talk) 08:45, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Talk:List of highways in Israel

I replied over there. Shalom (Hello • Peace) 02:28, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free media (Image:Shinigami isshin.jpg)

Thanks for uploading Image:Shinigami isshin.jpg. The media description page currently specifies that it is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, it is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the media was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that media for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

If you have uploaded other unlicensed media, please check whether they're used in any articles or not. You can find a list of 'image' pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Wikipedia page when you are logged in), and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that all non-free media not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. BJBot (talk) 00:59, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Hello

Re your revert, if you read the article, it is explicit that it is not the same 100% of the time. Hence my amendment. --Dweller (talk) 17:34, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Har Adar

Thanks for your very elegant (and thoughtful) changes to my stuff in Har Adar. And it's not very nice to malign Arad in front of strangers... Best, --Zlerman (talk) 12:51, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

A few things

Hi Yan. I've got a few things which I'd like your opinion on:

Firstly I think Gilabrand is right in what she says here about using the Hebrew name; I began the article a long time ago before I'd really got to grips with what it was appropriate to Anglicise or not. However, I'd like your opinion on whether it should be:

  1. Hapoel Hamizrahi
  2. Hapoel Hamizrachi
  3. Hapoel HaMizrahi
  4. Hapoel HaMizrachi

I'm torn between 1 and 3; whilst 3 meets WP:HEBREW, I don't think I've ever seen the second word have the second capital (much like Hashomer Hatzair).

Secondly, I've also been toying with the idea of moving Hanoar Haoved Vehalomed to a capitalised version.

Thirdly, I've just created Settlement movement (Israel). Whilst as far as I'm aware Agudat Israel Workers, Mizrahi Workers and Kibbutz Artzi are defunct, they are listed as affiliations for several kibbutzim and moshavim on the Hebrew wiki. Do you know if the affiliation still stands, or whether it refers to their initial one?

I saw you said you had something you wanted to talk to me about. I'm afraid I haven't been able to get on messenger much recently, so it might be better to talk via e-mail. Cheers, пﮟოьεԻ 57 13:23, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Ayyalon cave

Hi Yan. please contact me about the Ayyalon cave article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Isrnmn (talk • contribs) 10:24, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Allegations of Israeli Apartheid?

currently there is a vote going on in removing allegations of an israeli apartheid. i would appreciate your opinion on this matter. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Allegations_of_Israeli_apartheid_%288th_nomination%29Wikifan12345 (talk) 23:40, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Yeah no problem. It kinda disgust me that things like this get hosted on wikipedia. I'm honestly shocked how people can rationalize and justify the inclusion of propaganda in an online encyclopedia. it truly is pathetic. 70.181.148.148 (talk) Wikifan12345 (talk) 00:03, 11 June 2008 (UTC)23:04, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Thank You

Thanks for the welcome note and the links. They were very helpful :) Kefo77 (talk) 20:17, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Israel templates

Hi. So far as I'm aware, Israel templates doesn't contain any kinds of templates other than navigational templates. One of its subcategories is an infobox template category, but that's a category. If you like, I could look through Israel templates and recategorize any non-navigational templates there accordingly; perhaps this is a task we could share. Sardanaphalus (talk) 00:58, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

  • Yes, navbox templates are treated as default, as most templates appearing in articles are of this type. Otherwise an extra layer in the category hierarchy is created, adding (unnecessarily, I believe) to its complexity. Sardanaphalus (talk) 09:52, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
  • I'm not aware of one. Maybe this navbox-as-default needs adding? Sardanaphalus (talk) 10:04, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
  • I'm interested to know why you're opposed to the idea -- unfamiliarity? Sardanaphalus (talk) 10:12, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Well, I'd say Category:Israel templates is a descriptive name: to me, it indicates a category containing template pages and subcategories relating to Israel. {{Template category}} at the top of the page indicates the pages in the category are meant to be navbox templates and that other template types are meant to sit in subcategories named accordingly. That seems pretty clear to me. I'd say whether someone chooses to view templates sitting in a parent category as "greater" than those in a subcategory sounds like a value judgement they needn't make. Also, I'm not sure that your US cities example translates as it currently stands; there doesn't seem to be a criterion with which to distinguish New York, Los Angeles, etc, from other cities --- unless you're thinking of population size..? In that case, if that were a useful criterion in the context, I imagine I'd say let's distinguish. So, to me, distinguishing between navbox and other types of template seems appropriate as a means to prevent levels of categorization from multiplying. Sardanaphalus (talk) 10:32, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
Any thoughts on the above? I realize it's quite possible I'm overlooking something. Otherwise, does what I'm saying make sense..? I'd appreciate your feedback. Sardanaphalus (talk) 20:59, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Formatting

No, I'm not using MSOffice but I am not able to use the Wiki editor. You're right; and usually I am the one who goes in later and makes the citation changes once I am on a computer where I can do so more easily. I'm assuming that's mostly what you're referring to, right - citations?LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 18:04, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your formatting of Wadi Salib. One question - why are bolded headings always worse than subheadings? I have chosen to insert bolded headings consciously, when it seemed to me that they did not need to stand on their own necessarily. In this case, it doesn't make a huge difference either way, but I wanted to ask your opinion on this at any rate. Best, LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 23:18, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

That helps. Thanks for taking the time to explain it to me. LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 02:43, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Call me crazy

You may think I am crazy, but I'd like to suggest a proposition. My guess is that you have strong feelings about crime among Bedouin due to your work with the Border Police. I'm also guessing that given your support for Yisrael Beiteynu you don't have any sympathy for the Bedouin perspective on this matter. However, the Negev Bedouins entry is indeed missing a section on crime, a fundamental issue these days. If I were writing an advocacy piece, I wouldn't go into it. However, this is an encyclopedia, and I would like to see this taboo topic broached (I think). If you come up with some info, I'll come up with some info. Everything I add will of course be in stark disagreement with what you add, I imagine, but perhaps we'll have a balanced entry in the end. What are your thoughts?LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 09:05, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Barnstar

The Israeli Barnstar of National Merit
For your work with Israel and Israel related articles, and for editing my articles. (and for creating this image) - Epson291 (talk) 04:00, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
My pleasure. Epson291 (talk) 04:30, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Dunums

Greetings Ynhockey! I was wondering how you would convert say 650 metric dunams to km2? Is is 6,500 km2? I don't live in any Levantine country and I was hoping that you would know? --Al Ameer son (talk) 04:07, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your help! --Al Ameer son (talk) 17:13, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Images

Thanks. You are the first person to have publicly noticed. YahelGuhan (talk) 16:16, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Beit Jalla reprisal raid

It's all covered by the one ref. Elmo Hutchinson. I take it you didn't read his book.

Beit Jalla raid is mentioned in many places. The probable raiders were "101" but no one was ever taken to task for it...Elmo was the investigating officer.....He is the primary source for all the other mentions.....All other sources are secondary.....Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 16:32, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

I am not making interpretation Ynhockey. Therefore primary is the correct source.If I was to interpret, then yes the argument should be backed with a reliable secondary source.

Primary sources are always preferred to secondary for statements. There is only one point where I have used my judgement and that is in saying it was a seminal event. The rest is mere reportage of fact and for that the primary source is Elmo.

Wiki prefers primary to secondary in everything apart from value judgements....Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 16:47, 22 June 2008 (UTC) Primary sources that have been published by a reliable source may be used in Wikipedia, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them. For that reason, anyone—without specialist knowledge—who reads the primary source should be able to verify that the Wikipedia passage agrees with the primary source. Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation. To the extent that part of an article relies on a primary source, it should:

  • only make descriptive claims about the information found in the primary source, the accuracy and applicability of which is easily verifiable by any reasonable, educated person without specialist knowledge, and
  • make no analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative claims about the information found in the primary source.

You needed to read on Ynhockey.....Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 16:55, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

  • only make descriptive claims about the information found in the primary source, the accuracy and applicability of which is easily verifiable by any reasonable, educated person without specialist knowledge, and
  • make no analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative claims about the information found in the primary source.

This is what I've done. No interpretation merely reportage. If was to make original material based on the primary source then secondary sources are required, as I have not then primary is best......Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 17:26, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

I did understand; However as I have made no value judgements there is no need for a secondary source...... Also there is a link to his book with his statements, if you feel that it is unfairly reported--then discuss...Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 17:39, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

In regards to "secondary sources," etc, please see p. 216 of Morris' Israel's Border Wars. <eleland/talkedits> 18:26, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

RE:Request

I have redirected your request to User:Fjmustak. I, unfortunately, am unable to read or write Arabic. I can only speak it well. Sorry, I hope Fjmustak will be able to get it done. --Al Ameer son (talk) 21:00, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Award of a Barnstar

The Barnstar of Diligence
The Barnstar of Diligence is hereby awarded in recognition of extraordinary scrutiny, precision, and community service, especially in regard to article improvement.

Awarded by PhilKnight (talk) 16:47, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Late, here, a pretty big order but

There's nothing useful on the actual incident on p.214. I've excerpted the gist of the relevant pages as quickly as I can, hoping I haven't missed anything important. That newfangled technology which you mention'd be nice, but beyond my feeble wits to invest in.

Beit Jala ‘The rape-murder of Leah Feistinger (see chapter 2*) in December 1951 sparked calls for revenge against the suspected perpetrators, refugees from Walaja who had committed a similar crime the previous February and were living in Beit Jala, near Bethlehem. The reprisal took place on the night of 6/7 January 1952,Christmas Eve in the Eastern churches. An IDF platoon attacked three of Beit Jala’s outlying houses with light weapons and grenades, and then blew up two of the houses while their occupants were still inside. Six people, including two p.215

  • (When Morris points to chapter 2 he's referring to pp.61ff. of same book, with details about the Mansi gang. Intruding note by Nishidani).

n 16 p.215 ‘Western diplomats were not convinced that the Feistinger rape-murder was the work of infiltrators. In Apr.1953 the US consul-general in Jerusalem wrote: ’It was never shown that the act was not committed by her Israeli boy-friend’

p.216 girls, aged 7 and 12, and two women, were killed, and three persons, including an 8-year-old by, were seriously injured. The raiders left behind leaflets, in Arabic, saying:

‘On 4/12/ 1951 some persons from among the inhabitants of Beit Jala killed a Jewish girl in the neighbourhood of Bayit VeGan, after committing against her an unpardonable crime. What we have done now is the penalty for that ugly crime. We shall not stand idly by in the face of such crimes. In our quiver there are always arrows for (such criminals). Let those who can, heed this warning…’

The chairman of the IJMAC, Colonel Bennett de Ridder, privately called the Beit Jala raid ‘a shameless act of terrorism’. In the ensuing emergency meeting of the IFMAC on 8 January, Ramati proposed four measures to alleviate the situation: (1) The passage by Jordan of a law making infiltration illegal and punishable with stiff prison sentences. (2) The removal of refugee communities from the border area, and their orderly rehabilitation and employment. (3) Demarcation of the frontier.(4) The return of the Jordanian authorities of stolen Israeli property. He went on to say that the only adequate answer to terrorism during the past fifty years had been counter terrorism, and if an 18-year-old girl is raped and carved up, we (should not) be surprised if those who knew her decide to respond, especially when the criminals are known to them . . We would not be surprised if you find that the (perpetrators) live in the houses that were attacked’

But he denied IDF involvement ‘in this sad affair’. The alleged perpetrators of the rape-murder were named as Said Salah Jam’an, Jamil Muhammed Muharrab, and Muhammed Mansi. (Non died in the Israeli raid – though at least three of the dead and two of the wounded were Mansi family members). Israel voted with Jordan and de Ridder in condemning the raid.

The Jordanian authorities believed that the Beit Jala raid highlighted a ‘divergence of policy’ in the Israeli government, between Moderates and hardliners. As Ahmad Bey Touqan, the Jordanian delegate to the IJMAC, put it: ’The Israeli Foreign Minister (Sharett) wished to follow a relatively moderate policy but . . the army had the opposite intention . .(and) the army policy appeared in the ascendant’. But the British ambassador to Tel (page break, end of 215) Aviv disputed the idea of any rift between Moderates and hardliners, Foreign Ministry and IDF:

‘I have the impression (he wrote in July 1952) that the (Foreign)Ministry . .the army . . the (Israeli)MAC delegation, the police and all the others concerned on the Israeli side work very close together, are subject to co-ordinated policty instructions which they carry out to the letter . .’

But despite the obvious efficiency of the raiders and the apparent synchronization of the raid with the January 6 raid on the Bedouin encampment near Bureiji in the Gaza Strip and a smaller raid against a house in Imwas, in the Latrun salient, in which one Arab villager was injured, Beit Jala left a spoor of uncertainty about its authorship among Western observers. As the counsellor at the British Embassy in Tel Aviv wrote: ’’If (the raids) are not carried out by Israeli troops (and we are inclined to think they are not), they must be carried out by the inhabitants of the defensive border settlements..’ p.217

‘There seems to be no evidence to support the Jordan contention that “all the attacks are by regular military forces”.’ Wrote another British official. The raid prompted speculation among foreign observers about the purposes of Israel’s border policy. De Ridder thought that Israel was trying to provoke full-scale hostilities with Jordan, perhaps with the aim of territorial aggrandisement. Glubb, taking a more Machiavellian tack, believed that Jerusalem wanted a ‘somewhat disturbed frontier’ in order to persuade its public to accept the rigours of Israeli life by ‘constantly’ crying ‘that the enemy is at the gates’. Moreover, he argued, the Israelis had a psychological need to bully their weaker neighbours. p.217

p.218 = The British Embassy in Tel Aviv seemed to accept the raids at face value ‘as simple reprisals, designed to make Arab infiltration unpopular in the Arab villages’, to force the Jordanians to agree to a proper demarcation of the frontier, and, perhaps, to agree to ‘a settlement’. The ambassador, implicitly defending Israel’s policy, cited the Israeli comparison of IDF raids with British reprisals against Egyptian terrorists in the Suez Canal zone. . .

Yet Whitehall was unhappy with Israel’s retaliatory policy. ‘’Their belief that toughness pays in their dealings with the Arabs is based on a misunderstanding of the Arabs character. Their raids may temporarily have cowed the infiltrators but if repeated will provoke . .counter measures.’p.218

Washington, on the other hand, went ahead with formal representations to Tel Aviv, the American consul in Jerusalem called the raid ‘open, organized and provocative brutality’. The State Department told Israel that, while the US understood its difficulties stemming from infiltration, the ‘military incursions by Israel into Jordan or other neighbouring states (for the) purpose (of) shooting people or destroying property appeared to dept as (end of 218)

p.219=extremely grave violations Armistice Agreement which c(ould) not be justified under any circumstances.’ Dean Acheson spoke of ‘brutal . .terror tactics’ US Ambassador Tel Aviv Monnett Davis initially said IDF got upper hand over avowed policy of government, since the ‘dominant military clique’ held a cynical view of moderates’ efforts to make peace.

But Davis was told by unrepentant Sharett reiterating ‘(the) familiar doctrine that (the)language of reprisals is (the) only one Arabs seem to understand. ’ ‘But, at least in the short term, the Beit Jala raid considerably diminished Arab infiltration along the J-I frontier and cooperation increased between their security forces. Six weeks after infiltration decreased 75 % Washington acknowledged results but they were still ‘unwarranted methods (of)dealing with infiltration’p.219

Hope this is enough. I think Ceedjee has a copy at hand as well.Nishidani (talk) 21:45, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Happy to oblige, Ynhockey. I can imagine living without a digital camera, but only because at my age, reading wiki pages produces regular heart murmurs that suggest, if I had one, it would only register for a brief future apoplectic death throes! Regards Nishidani (talk) 16:21, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

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tsadi and new taatik

what is the reference for concensus about "tz"? you can see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions_(Hebrew)/Archive_3#Tsadi:_ts_for_.D7.A6 it is also the preferred transliteration by the academy from 2007: http://hebrew-academy.huji.ac.il/PDF/taatiq2007.pdf

anyway even if you thought you where right why did you revert other good changes like: the updated http://hebrew-academy.huji.ac.il/PDF/taatiq2007.pdf instead of the outdated http://hebrew-academy.huji.ac.il/PDF/tatik.pdf

the third issue is the k in the end of tsadik which is usually not written.

please take more care with such global undo's —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.176.136.152 (talk) 16:30, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks

I appreciate the kind words. Cheers, Amoruso (talk) 16:26, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Re:Mediation

Hello. I gave a response on the talk page. Basically, I concluded that the closing of the discussion and decision to merge was very inappropriate since a user that !voted in the discussion opted to do so, but the article itself pushes WP:WEIGHT, WP:CFORK, and WP:SS very hard, and a merger is probably a good compromise between all parties. That said, I've encouraged all parties to work towards a working model of how the material should be merged before the merger actually takes place. I say this without prejudice against the article itself, as I think the material could be better represented in the parent article and that it would be a suitable compromise in this situation. Sephiroth BCR (Converse) 22:44, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. And yes, I still edit Bleach articles every so and then (I took Rukia Kuchiki to GA a couple months ago, and I'll bring List of Bleach episodes (season 3) to FL as soon as the English arc name comes out). May I ask why you asked the question? Sephiroth BCR (Converse) 06:47, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
Thanks again. I'm trying to achieve a workable compromise in terms of the available articles that are to be kept, and probably will end up with a similar situation that currently exists at the Naruto articles (which currently have four good articles, five featured lists, one featured topic, with a lot of potential for more). The two crux points for this are a character list and a "universe" or "world" article so-to-speak (like Naruto universe with major cleanup) that allows for the in-universe material to be covered but gives the maximum potential for out-of-universe coverage by making the topic as broad as possible. List of Naruto characters is the current character list model I'm working on (and it's modeled on lists such as Characters of Final Fantasy VIII and Characters of Kingdom Hearts, from which I made List of characters in Castlevania: Aria of Sorrow and Dawn of Sorrow, so I'm coming into this with a general idea of what I'm doing). If the character list can become a FL and the "universe" article can become a GA, then I think we have a pretty solid model for other anime franchises to follow, and it might solve a lot of the deletionist/inclusionist problems that have come up. The "universe" article is one I'm striving for a bit less, as not all franchises have a setting or concepts within the setting that receive a lot of notice from third party publications, but the character list is definitely one of the things I'm trying to get cemented as a good model. As for the individual character articles, I made Rukia Kuchiki on the same model that I made Sasuke Uchiha on (the original Naruto character GA), and this can probably be applicable for the rest of the character articles. The big sticking point for Bleach characters is that Kubo apparently hasn't provided any significant conception information unlike Kishimoto for the Naruto characters, so attempting to keep more characters is a tad bit more difficult. Sephiroth BCR (Converse) 07:15, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Hebrew)

I just noticed that some pages I've been creating are not in compliance with the current guideline. Please review some of my recent page creations and moves, and advise changes as necessary. Yechiel (Shalom) Editor review 16:01, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, I noticed that Matte Asher Regional Council had been renamed to Mateh Asher Regional Council, and I thought it was the other way round. Specifically, I want to know how to handle ה and ח, and if it's different for Israeli towns versus Hebrew in general.
My current practice on Wikipedia is like this: ה is "h" in the middle of the word, but silent at the end of a word. ח is "h" in Israeli place names and "ch" in other contexts. For example, I just finished translating Rehaniya but in Polish Wikipedia it's Rechaniya.
(I have never seen anyone spell Haifa as "Chaifa" or "Chaifah." Likewise with Hadera.) Yechiel (Shalom) Editor review 16:23, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
That answered my question. Thank you very much. :) Yechiel (Shalom) Editor review 16:30, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Avraham Poraz

Thanks. Good thing you've noticed the military service, which I forgot to add, for some reason. Turns out it was one of the most requested articles. -- Nudve (talk) 16:11, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

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