Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2010 February 4

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February 4

Comma placement

In the following sentence fragment:

including eight resupply missions to the International Space Station (ISS), and seven to the Russian space station Mir.

Should the comma be before the "(ISS)", where it is, or what? This is the second time in as many days that I've run across this rather quixotic issue, for crying out loud!
— V = I * R (Talk • Contribs) 01:23, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Looks fine where it it -- why should it be before the "(ISS)"? Formally, there might be a comma also placed between "station" and "Mir," because "Mir" describes "the Russian space station." DRosenbach ^{(Talk | Contribs)} 01:30, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Agreed: Keep the comma where it is. As for a comma after station, it depends on whether there is only one Russian space station or more than one. If it's just one, then Mir is providing additional, unnecessary information and should be preceded by a comma. If there's more than one, then Mir is providing disambiguating, necessary information and should not be preceded by a comma.--el Aprel (^facta-_facienda) 01:43, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Yea, there's been several Russian space stations. That must be part of the reason why the comma "felt wrong" to me, since I've heard that sort of thing before. I appreciate your mentioning it, thanks!
— V = I * R (Talk • Contribs) 01:48, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

That's what I thought but I've been questioning it for some reason. I've probably just been staring at it too long; thinking about it too much, you know? I know what you mean about the comma between space station and Mir as well. I actually removed that comma though because the sentence already uses two other commas... the extra one there just "feels wrong" to me, for whatever reason.
— V = I * R (Talk • Contribs) 01:46, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

While there is no comma after "International Space Station," a reader of that sentence would pause before reading that which is found within the parentheses. A comma also injects a pause into a sentence, wherever it is placed, but I think a reader of a sentence containing parenthetical content also pauses before reading that which is contained within parentheses. Bus stop (talk) 01:53, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

That's a good point, and it's probably what started me questioning this in the first place (subconsciously). The only reason that the parenthetical with the abbreviation is there is because that's the first use, so that's really where it belongs. My immediate thought is that I should rework the sentence somehow, but... that'll be pretty tough in this particular instance. I don't know, barring a good suggestion I think that I'll simply leave it as is (the article is Astrotech Corporation by the way, so if anyone feels like jumping in please do so!).
— V = I * R (Talk • Contribs) 02:03, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Having read the whole sentence, I think there are good reasons for leaving the comma after (ISS), and good reasons to remove it. So your instinctual hesitation is perfectly natural and justified. The reason to omit it would be that the single remaining comma would more clearly govern the whole phrase beginning "including..." which itself would be more unified without a second confusing comma. The reason to keep the comma is that at least one phrase is unrepeated but understood ("resupply missions" and, perhaps, "including"). One common way of indicating this is with a comma or commas as in She voted Communist, and he, Democratic or He gave seven specially-wrapped Cadbury's chocolate caramel wafers to his daughter, and six to his son. In fact, the first sentence I wrote above is another example (the omitted repetitions being "I think there are"). —— Shakescene (talk) 09:03, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

*nods* Good explaination Shakescene, thank you. (ps.: thanks for using {{xt}} as well. I've been wondering about how that's done for a while now, aside form adding span/style tags inline, which would be a pain, and so the template will come in handy.)
— V = I * R (Talk • Contribs) 16:47, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Network S.P.A

What does s.p.a mean?174.3.98.236 (talk) 04:15, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

"Single-purpose account", more commonly abbreviated "SPA". A wikipedia account whose sole reason for being is to focus on one particular article or subject, which might be for spam or might be for vandalism. They are rightly looked upon with suspicion, as in many cases they are up to no good. But some SPA's are legitimate and are simply only interested in editing in their area of expertise. There's no rule against an SPA as such. As with any user, it depends on what they do. The "network" part I take to mean the network that carries the TV show in question, i.e. it's either someone working for the network or it's a fan or a relative - assuming that the comments in the discussion about it are true. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:21, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

S.p.A. is not a single-purpose abbreviation. In Italian it usually means Società per Azioni signifying a limited-liability corporation or joint stock company as in Fiat s.p.a., the equivalent in Italian of "Inc.", "Ltd", "PLC", "S.A.", "GmbH", "AG", "NV" or "Pty" in other countries. See it:Società per Azioni which shows a nice little box of equivalents. It would be my guess, not knowing the name or enough of the context that Network S.P.A. is an Italian firm. —— Shakescene (talk) 09:31, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Nah, BB is right. 174.3 linked to the Food and Drink project page, and the use of s.p.a. there (granted, the full stops are unnecessary and confusing) is meant to mean single purpose account and the network talked about is PBS. TomorrowTime (talk) 12:34, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Stars

What is Mstars?

What is NYTimes stars?174.3.98.236 (talk) 04:55, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

I don't know if these are widely used terms, but the people on that talk page are clearly using them to talk about the star ratings awarded by the Michelin Guides and by the restaurant critic of the New York Times. --Anonymous, 08:00 UTC, February 4, 2010.

Devaluation of "snub"

It's film awards time again, and we're now getting our annual slew of reports about how certain people or even nations have been "snubbed" by the Academy, or whoever else.

In my day, to snub someone meant to deliberately exclude them from something or refuse to talk to them. It usually involved a dose of malice or vindictiveness, and it was generally considered poor form. It did not extend to situations where various people had rival claims, they were all considered, and a selection was made on merit. Or to circumstances where someone seeks some sort of recognition but, for whatever reason (which could be the best reason in the world), is denied it. But now, it does seem to extend to all these situations. I've even seen it used in situations where someone has applied for a position, gone through an interview and assessment process, but has not been successful. They said he'd been "snubbed" by the panel; whereas, to me that would normally mean the panel refused to even consider his application, and probably for irrelevant or inappropriate reasons.

Is my assessment correct, that "snub" has become rather devalued? -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 08:19, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

It's just media hype. The media, especially in the entertainment field, frequently exaggerate, in both the positive and the negative. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 08:28, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

I agree with your assessment, that the word has been devalued. It is but one example of sensationalism in the meda. There are many others. My current "favourite" is the Australian media's reference to any increase in the Reserve Bank of Australia's interest rate (which affects consumer mortgage rates) as a "hike". Mitch Ames (talk) 08:39, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

We see that term a lot in the USA also. Apparently "increase" has too many syllables. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 08:41, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

There should be entire Journalese-English dictionaries. In the media, nobody ever criticises anything, but they often "slam" things. Don't get me started. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 10:35, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Headlinese lists many of these. meltBanana 13:08, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

See Journalese-English Dictionary (first edition) (Journal Blog Central). -- Wavelength (talk) 15:51, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Heh. That's a good start. They should also include the "sex romps" in which celebrities are often accused of engaging. I always have highly undesirable mental images when I hear that expression. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 18:25, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Especially as some of us associate that term with the Romper Room TV show. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:33, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Well, my images do not involve children, but to each his own. (This is not a snub of your comment, btw - to return to the topic). -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 19:10, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Nor do mine. That's why I object to "romp". Why not say "frolic"? Too many syllables, again? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:16, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

See Frisky Frolics. -- Wavelength (talk) 01:26, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia has some articles whose names begin with "snub". Some of those articles are about animals and some of them are about polyhedra.

-- Wavelength (talk) 01:44, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

A bit like Tom Brown in the Reign of William IV

Having tried to look up a novel my father read when he was young, then recommended to me, I would like to ask if anyone else has heard of it, and knows who wrote it. The story is called " Burke's Chum ", and is about boys in an English Public School - what we in New Zealand and probably those in Australia and the United States would call a private school. It is along the same lines as Tom Brown's Schooldays, which I also enjoyed - but on both counts it has been many years. The story could also have been set as late as the 1950's, or at least even into the Twentieth Century, and involves a younger boy surnamed Burke, an older senior boy who sticks up for him, but who dies of a fever at the end of the story, in the chapter " After Life's fitful fever he sleeps well. " This occurred because the hero rescued the boy Burke after a bully had somehow tied him to a pier or something, and the tide came in. There was also a running race in the story. More dramatic than Billy Bunter or Just William. Thanks. The Russian Christopher Lilly 13:14, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Annie Forsyth Grant. Google Books. —Akrabbim^talk 13:30, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Published 1896. Mrs. Annie Gregory Forsyth Grant (1858-1928) wrote several other books including The Boys At Penrohn (1893), The Hero Of Crampton School (1895), Chums At Last (1899), The Beresford Boys (1906), Rosemary (1926), The Road To Tarfe (1928). Ghmyrtle (talk) 13:39, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Well thank You for that - all this time I forgot it had been written by a woman.--The Russian Christopher Lilly 08:23, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

French mot du jour services?

Dear all,

I was wondering if anyone knew of a decent French word of the day website, or, preferably, email service. I have been studying French for many years now and would like to enrich my vocabulary before moving there. A service that dealt with more advanced vocabulary would be particularly useful, even if it is a site for Francophones themselves. Also, sites/services dealing with more familiar or colloquial words would be beneficial, because, after having studied the language formally, I find a gap when it comes to many lower register words.

All the best

E.M. --87.84.103.101 (talk) 15:02, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Not quite answering the question but, I subscribed to TV5MONDE[1] from my UK cable TV provider. I love French films but I struggle to understand what they're saying (nothing to do with my lack of French comprehension - obviously because they all have such poor diction across the Channel). I watch the films with the French sub-titles, which makes much more sense. You can pick some choice idioms, especially in those gritty social dramas. Alansplodge (talk) 18:00, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

http://french-word-a-day.typepad.com/ has a decent one. That site has other stuff along with it; if you just want the word-a-day you can get an RSS feed of it here or, if you use gmail, you can subscribe through that. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 18:04, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Not that I can speak French, but I can confirm what Alan said - TV5 has the same reputation here in Slovenia: if you're learning French at an advanced level, it's supposed to be an excellent tool at acquiring new vocabulary, what with its French and its subtitles and its vocabulary hoyvin glayvin! TomorrowTime (talk) 23:08, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

IPA for "L" in Church Slavonic/Russian

(I'm really asking about Church Slavonic, since I'm currently singing a work written in that language, but I think this involves a feature common to both languages)

For example, the word "Alliluyah" -- I'm sorry, I don't know the Cyrillic, but it's "Hallelujah" -- the "l" sound in the first syllable is different from the "l" sound in the second syllable, correct? My understanding, based on what our language coach has told us, is that the "l" in the second syllable is a "dark" sound. This is meant to be distinct from the "l" in the first syllable, which is similar to how a native English speaker would pronounce the "l"s in "Hallelujah".

Consulting the IPA for Russian article, I see there are two ways of transcribing "l" -- l and lʲ, the latter of these being a "palletized" l. Is it correct that this palletized l is how you would indicate the "dark l"? It seems like it is, but I was thrown off because the examples given in the article (l = "pill" / lʲ = "least") sound the same in my (Midwestern US) accent.

Thanks for the help. Dgcopter (talk) 21:16, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

No, the palatalized (not "palletized") L is the "light L", the one that occurs before "i" in Russian (and Church Slavonic). The "dark L", which is also transcribed ɫ, is velarized. In some accents of English, e.g. English English, L at the beginning of a word is light (e.g. least), while L at the end of a word is dark (e.g. pill), but in other accents (including yours), there's no difference. +Angr 21:30, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Holy hell, I can't believe I wrote "palletized"...several times. That's what I get for Wikipedia'ing at work (I work for a manufacturing company). Regardless, thanks for your help. Can you think of why the velarized l you mentioned isn't included in the IPA for Russian article? Dgcopter (talk) 21:47, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

P.S. I promise I really do know the difference between how boxes are stacked on wooden boards and how one's tongue is placed within one's mouth! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dgcopter (talk • contribs) 21:52, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

The velarized L is included in WP:IPA for Russian, it's just transcribed "l" rather than "ɫ", probably because (almost) all consonants in Russian occur in velarized/palatalized pairs, and the velarized ones are left unmarked while the palatalized ones are marked with ʲ. +Angr 22:14, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

FWIW, pronunciation of "L" in various Slavic languages was the subject of a recent WordReference forums thread. OCS not mentioned, though; however, because it's sort of a constructed language, I don't think it really has a "canonic" pronunciation. For what it's worth, in both Russian and Bulgarian (which are sort of closest to OCS), "alliluyah" would be pronounced along the lines of /al[ʲ]iɫuːja/. No such user (talk) 09:36, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Native American Greetings

I remember from when I was a kid that native americans were always portrayed as saying 'How' when greeting somebody. At the time, I wondered whether this was a transliteration of a native word from one language or another, meaning 'hello', but, I found out today that the Cree word for 'hello' (tánsi) also means 'how'. Therefore my question is, was the word 'how' as used in the tv programs/films/comics I saw as a kid actually a translation of this Cree greeting, and used regardless of the nation in question? --KageTora - (影虎) (A word...?) 21:38, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Totally from memory, I think it was short for something pronounced "how chi". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:46, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

It's more likely to be from a word in a Siouan language; my Lakota dictionary includes the following entry: "hau \hau\ interj of greeting or approbation: Hello! Yes! Fine! Good!". Cecil Adams of "The Straight Dope" thinks so too. +Angr 22:21, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Well, to be honest, without knowing the actual word or what language it was, I actually assumed that in the first place (and in fact that it was Sioux - purely because they were the most known to me in those days). I just saw this website teaching Cree today and saw this on it and made my mistakened connection. Well, cheers, guys! --KageTora - (影虎) (A word...?) 22:28, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Over here in continental Europe it's common knowledge, as brought to us by the great anthropologist Karl May, that the standard Indian greeting is "Howgh!". TomorrowTime (talk) 22:35, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

...and with a pipe in your mouth. Now that takes me back!--Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:33, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

See Howdy and Ni hao. -- Wavelength (talk) 01:30, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

See Setting the Record Straight: What Does "How How" Really Mean?. -- Wavelength (talk) 01:36, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

alternate definition for asynchronous learning

In circles that deal with learning disabilities, giftedness, and twice exceptionality, this terms is often used in the context of unven deevlopment of skill. This is seen when students can reach above/well above grade level on one skill, average on another skill and well below/below grade level on still other skills. An example might be an 8 y/o child who can tell you explicit details about how magnetism works to create anti-gravity, is is grade appropriate for reading and math but can not write or spell at a first grade level.

Having been around these circles, I had no idea about the context presented here. Yet, I can not find definitonal references for the context to which I have always heard the term used. Can You help find the appropraite references to this contextual use of the term?

--D4rittenberry (talk) 23:28, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

The article Asynchronous learning might be helpful. -- Wavelength (talk) 01:47, 5 February 2010 (UTC)